Navicular!

[pistolpete]

My horse has been diagnosed with it. He has had tildren, is on navilox and is having remedial farriery. Good stories about others in the same situation going on to do normal work please? I am only allowed to ride him in walk for the next six weeks, building up to one hour. Hopeful of him making a good recovery but would love to hear about others experiences.

 

[Oberon]

Rockley Farm has an excellent success rate - including a handful of people from HHO who came on asking questions just as you have.....
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/

This is a horse from my yard - sound and competing ever since....
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

Navicular doesn't have to be an end - but you have to be prepared to look outside the box and even go against professional's advice.

 

[Andalucian]

Sorry I don't have any good stories re navicular and remedial shoeing, but there are many good stories when you choose barefoot as the treatment.

 

[RolyPolyPony]

Sorry I don't have any good stories re navicular and remedial shoeing, but there are many good stories when you choose barefoot as the treatment.

Couldnt agree more! My YO's horse had navicular, was on 9months box rest and vet recommended she should be pts. Eventually got referred to Rockley, went barefoot and is now thriving!!

 

[ITPersonnage]

I've got a (so far and fingers crossed) happy story about remedial shoeing although I am quite sure the BFT will shake their heads and say "only a matter of time" but here goes.. My girl was diagnosed with Nav and had remedial shoes (egg bars) and box rest with restricted exercise the same as yours, increasing slowly to one hour.

After 3 months she was slightly improved (but had soft tissue damage as well so that was probably the rest) after this and we then treated her twice with Tildren and is now sound (touch wood etc). However I am unsure (as is vet & farrier) which actually did the trick, the Tildren or farriery - I suspect the shoeing (not just the shoes) which improved her foot shape and balance in the long term, whilst the drug gave her a pain-killing boost that seems to have helped.

I was in EXACTLY the same place as you and absolutely devastated and I feel for you, it's a horrid condition but that's what happened to us and fingers crossed whatever you decide to do I hope your horse comes sound. Mine's now happily enjoying XC, SJ and dressage, just worked & turned out in overreach boots, a small price to pay! (Mind you the 4 weekly shoeing bill is the not so small price to pay - but not begrudged one bit!)

 

[EmzT]

My cob was diagnosed with navicular 5 years ago. He received tildren with remedial farriery and I may as well have flushed my money down the toilet.

Give the barefoot a go. It will probably surprise you! And if it doesn't work it can't do any harm.

 

[cptrayes]

My horse has been diagnosed with it. He has had tildren, is on navilox and is having remedial farriery. Good stories about others in the same situation going on to do normal work please? I am only allowed to ride him in walk for the next six weeks, building up to one hour. Hopeful of him making a good recovery but would love to hear about others experiences.

The first thing that you need to know is that unless you have had an MRI scan, a diagnosis of "navicular" means nothing more than

"we can see changes to the navicular bone and we don't actually have a clue what is making your horse lame other than that it is in the back half of the foot"

Though vets persist in diagnosing horses as if there is, the fact is that there is very, very little correlation between soundness and the type of damage to the navicular bone that leads to the diagnosis that you have got. When MRI'd most horses with "navicular disease" will be shown to have damage to the collateral ligaments, deep digital flexor tendon, or both. It is that damage which usually causes the lameness, and that damage can normally be fixed in weeks or a few months without shoes on.

So - your horse can probably be fixed. The chances are well against that happening in shoes and well in favour of it happening with a barefoot rehab.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Its not all gloom and doom, I have a navicular horse and thanks to a brilliant farrier, she's sound as a pound and working happily 2 years after diagnosis. We took shoes off a few months ago because her feet look great and she adapted straight away. Hopefully she can now remain sound without them.
Just moved to a new area, so using a new farrier which is always a bit of a worry, but he was very happy with her foot balance.

Stay positive and ask loads of questions from your vet and farrier.

 

[Delta99]

If you can afford it, it's well worth having the MRI done, so that you know exactly what you're dealing with.
Most of the horses with 'navicular' have DDFT damage which seems to be quite simple to fix.
My boy seems to be the odd ball who only has impar ligament damage, nothing else.
I tried to barefoot approach but walking made him worse so I just left him to it in the field and after 11 months he is finally sound in the field so I'm very slowly starting to bring him back to see what will happen.

There are lots of navicular horses out there leading a normal life, and competing, with or without shoes, so it's not the end of the road anymore.

 

[caramel]

mine was diagnosed last year, we went down the nerve block/xray route and I was told he had 'navicular'. We have gone down the remedial shoeing road and he's doing well He had gel pads on last year which I don't miss at all (at £95 a set every 6 weeks!)
We're just being careful (no haring about, restricting roadwork etc). We don't jump but he can still hack/school/dressage/showing etc. Just need to be careful.

 

[maggiesmum]

Another barefoot vote here, my TB was diagnosed 4 years ago and went barefoot, he's been sound ever since and we don't have to be careful or avoid doing anything, we just carry on as normal albeit with a slightly adjusted diet.

 

[Clannad48]

Another barefoot vote here - we have a dwb who was diagnosed with 'navicular syndrome' about three years ago - we had excellent vet advice - initially went with remedial shoeing, medication, months of box rest. After much consultation with the vet and the farrier we all agreed to try barefoot for a while - just to see - no fixed ideas. To cut a long story short after an initial week of footiness on gravel/hard ground she has never looked back. She competes at cross country and showjumping. However I am very careful around hard surfaces, mind you I am the same with my non barefoot horse

I don't belong to the BFT as I believe every horse is different and what works for one may not work for another - I have one horse who is shod and one barefoot - we tried barefoot on the the one who is still shod - she just didn't get on with it.

The one thing to bear in mind my vet and farrier worked TOGETHER, my farrier is very well trained and qualified to treat barefoot horses.

 

[PolarSkye]

The one thing to bear in mind my vet and farrier worked TOGETHER, my farrier is very well trained and qualified to treat barefoot horses.

I think this might be the key. Have to say that I read this thread with interest b/c I do worry that this might be in Kali's future. He has quite upright conformation and very small, boxy feet for his size (not to mention his club foot).

P

 

[Zuzzie]

Don't be too downhearted. I've had two horses with navicular - both of which came sound within a year or so - and that was before BFT was even heard of. You must remember that navicular is a 'syndrome' - in other words it refers to a set of symptoms which is indicative of a disease or abnormal condtion. Vets love to put labels on things which frighten you to death! On Xray one horse will have changes to the navicular bone and be lame whilst another with similar changes will be sound so, you see, nothing is definitive.
I agree very much with cptrayes on this.

Incidentally, it was thought that the bony changes to the navicular bone was due to poor circulation so that Isoxupren was prescribed. A specialist vet (Chris Colles) told me years ago that I should keep my horse exercised to help the circulation so how come some vets are recommending box rest???

 

[cptrayes]

Incidentally, it was thought that the bony changes to the navicular bone was due to poor circulation so that Isoxupren was prescribed. A specialist vet (Chris Colles) told me years ago that I should keep my horse exercised to help the circulation so how come some vets are recommending box rest???

Because in those days it was thought that the bone changes were the cause of the lameness.

It is now known that if you MRI these horses almost all of them have soft tissue damage, and the treatment for soft tissue damage is rest.

Having said that, barefoot rehabs are not rested, they do as much work as they can do without undue pain, and the soft tissue damage recovers because the back of the foot strengthens with the work to support the foot properly.

 

[Zuzzie]

Because in those days it was thought that the bone changes were the cause of the lameness.

It is now known that if you MRI these horses almost all of them have soft tissue damage, and the treatment for soft tissue damage is rest.

Having said that, barefoot rehabs are not rested, they do as much work as they can do without undue pain, and the soft tissue damage recovers because the back of the foot strengthens with the work to support the foot properly.

Thanks for the clarification. This makes a great deal of sense.

 

[Tiffany]

As I understand there is navicualr syndrome which is when they know it's pain in the back of the foot but not sure where exactly and there is navicular, diagnosed with an MRI.

My girl was diagnosed last year after an MRI and unusually she doesn't have any soft tissue damage.

I was advised to turn her out more, carry on riding her and the vet and farrier worked together and so far so good. She's ridden 4-5 times a week over different terrain and she loves to jump the ditches in the field on her way in from field.

I have nothing against BF and even considered it although in my view it's not a cure all infact, I don't believe any one thing works for absolutely everything, whatever the problem.

It is a degenerative disease but that doesn't mean it's the end, it can be managed.

 

[maggiesmum]

It is a degenerative disease but that doesn't mean it's the end, it can be managed.

I hate to throw the cat amongst the pigeons but.... it might well degenerate in a shod horse but its far less likely to in a barefoot horse thats developed a healthy foot capable of doing its job correctly. It pretty much always degenerated in horses that were treated with remedial shoes (my sole reason for refusing to go down that route) but x-rays have shown that even bony changes can be remodelled over time if the foot is working correctly as nature intended.

 

[Tiffany]

It's all a learning curve for me Maggiesmum so very open minded and as I've said I'm not against BF although I also know horses that haven't come sound when barefoot. Like everything I'm sure BF works for some horses and not for others same as shoes work for some and not others. I would think a lot depends on the prognosis, diet and exercise routine.

 

[cptrayes]

As I understand there is navicualr syndrome which is when they know it's pain in the back of the foot but not sure where exactly and there is navicular, diagnosed with an MRI.

My girl was diagnosed last year after an MRI and unusually she doesn't have any soft tissue damage.

My understanding is that this would be EXTREMELY unusual. In your position I would ask for a second opinion. Scans can be difficult to interpret and are subject to the interpreter's personal judgement.

Last year, my friends were told by a University veterinary training hospital that their horse had no current soft tissue damage, just some slight old scarring on a collateral ligament. They were told that the condition of his navicular bones was so severe he was unlikely to return to work.

I challenged this with the owner when she told me and she had the scans looked at by another vet. He found both DDFT and collateral ligament damage, currently active.


The horse (which was already barefoot but had suffered from lack of movement over a dark wet winter) went to a pro rehab yard and was sound in well under two months and remains sound.

 

[amandap]

http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

 

[muff747]

As I understand there is navicualr syndrome which is when they know it's pain in the back of the foot but not sure where exactly and there is navicular, diagnosed with an MRI.

My girl was diagnosed last year after an MRI and unusually she doesn't have any soft tissue damage.

I was advised to turn her out more, carry on riding her and the vet and farrier worked together and so far so good. She's ridden 4-5 times a week over different terrain and she loves to jump the ditches in the field on her way in from field.

I have nothing against BF and even considered it although in my view it's not a cure all infact, I don't believe any one thing works for absolutely everything, whatever the problem.

It is a degenerative disease but that doesn't mean it's the end, it can be managed.

I thought I had replied to this statement today, along the same lines as Maggiesmums answer. I said it may well be degenerative from a remedial shoeing treatment perspective, but it has been proven that navicular "disease" can be reversed in a barefoot treatment. I have just found where I read this is possible, it's on the Rockley Farm blog here
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/reversing-navicular-bone-damage.html
If my post was deleted, I hope this one will be allowed, being as my statement was taken from Rockley Farm evidence?

 

[Tiffany]

My understanding is that this would be EXTREMELY unusual. In your position I would ask for a second opinion. Scans can be difficult to interpret and are subject to the interpreter's personal judgement.

Last year, my friends were told by a University veterinary training hospital that their horse had no current soft tissue damage, just some slight old scarring on a collateral ligament. They were told that the condition of his navicular bones was so severe he was unlikely to return to work.

I challenged this with the owner when she told me and she had the scans looked at by another vet. He found both DDFT and collateral ligament damage, currently active.


The horse (which was already barefoot but had suffered from lack of movement over a dark wet winter) went to a pro rehab yard and was sound in well under two months and remains sound.

Thanks for response. The vet did say it's very, very rare and my girl is only the second he's known. Apart from the vet who did the scan who else could I ask to read it?
I understand to interpret MRI images is very 'specialist' and there were almost 200 of them so if I wanted a second opinion who would I ask?

 

[Tiffany]

http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

Someone on here pointed me to this article when she was first diagnosed and yes I did find it very interesting.

I suppose I am fortunate that she is fine and doing really well so I'd rather leave well alone.
Also, I know someone who's BF horse has been lame for almost 5 years. If he's been uncomfortable all that time I can't see how he's ever going to come sound unless something changes (diet, exercise, management, trimmer/farrier) or maybe BF is not the answer for him? Even shoes may not be the answer but might be worth a try after all this time.

 

[cptrayes]

Tiffany I totally agree with you.

 

[Tiffany]

Tiffany I totally agree with you.

If I did want a second opinion on MRI scan images who would I ask? Not sure if you read my earlier post about vet saying my girl is only the second case he's ever seen where there's been changes in navicular bone without soft tissue damage.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I hate to throw the cat amongst the pigeons but.... it might well degenerate in a shod horse but its far less likely to in a barefoot horse thats developed a healthy foot capable of doing its job correctly. It pretty much always degenerated in horses that were treated with remedial shoes (my sole reason for refusing to go down that route) but x-rays have shown that even bony changes can be remodelled over time if the foot is working correctly as nature intended.

This is really interesting, would love to see the studies that have documented the evidence of this. Do you have a link ?

 

[cptrayes]

This is really interesting, would love to see the studies that have documented the evidence of this. Do you have a link ?

The evidence for degeneration with conventional treatment and recovery with a barefoot rehab are both, unfortunately, anecdotal.

Evidence for failure rates in conventional treatments is here:

Osseous abnormalities associated with collateral desmopathy of the distal interphalangeal joint. Part 2: Treatment and outcome
Author(s): Dakin, SG (Dakin, S. G.)1; Dyson, SJ (Dyson, S. J.)1; Murray, RC (Murray, R. C.)1; Newton, R (Newton, R.)2
Source: EQUINE VETERINARY JOURNAL Volume: 41 Issue: 8 Pages: 794-799 DOI: 10.2746/042516409X452170 Published: NOV 2009


There is another one which I can't find right now where the failure rate for conventional treatment of collateral ligament/ddft damage is 80%

 

[MerrySherryRider]

The evidence for degeneration with conventional treatment and recovery with a barefoot rehab are both, unfortunately, anecdotal.

Evidence for failure rates in conventional treatments is here:

Osseous abnormalities associated with collateral desmopathy of the distal interphalangeal joint. Part 2: Treatment and outcome
Author(s): Dakin, SG (Dakin, S. G.)1; Dyson, SJ (Dyson, S. J.)1; Murray, RC (Murray, R. C.)1; Newton, R (Newton, R.)2
Source: EQUINE VETERINARY JOURNAL Volume: 41 Issue: 8 Pages: 794-799 DOI: 10.2746/042516409X452170 Published: NOV 2009


There is another one which I can't find right now where the failure rate for conventional treatment of collateral ligament/ddft damage is 80%

Ah, now the study you cite there seems to have nothing to do with shoeing unless I've missed something.

The author refers to treatment by Radial Pressure therapy and ExtraCorporeal Shock wave therapy, no mention of whether the horses were being shod or just trimmed.

We all know that there is no evidence for Barefoot rehab and anecdotal accounts are subjective.

The Hipposandal industry seems to be big business, are they just taking the money and running, or are they investing in much needed research, or even the odd MRI ?

Have these companies been approached by Rockley to sponsor xrays and scans on rehabbed horses ? Seems like a good business plan.

 

[cptrayes]

Have these companies been approached by Rockley to sponsor xrays and scans on rehabbed horses ? Seems like a good business plan.

Rockley does not need to change its business plan. It is full, and busy, with a waiting list of people who are happy to take the mounting international anecdotal evidence at face value. Horse after horse after horse is leaving there and finishing other barefoot rehabs sound enough to be ridden when their vets and farriers had exhausted all their options and were recommeding PTS or pasture ornamentation.

Personally, I think the people who should be paying for the research that you want are the vets and farriers making a ton of money out of remedial shoeing and medical interventions which are failing to bring the majority of the horses in their care back to full work, if they can work at all.



Incidentally, the Rockley bursary, contrary to those who said that they would pick an easy case has gone to one of those horses with "genetically weak" feet, a thoroughbred. On top of that it's an ex-racing thoroughbred which raced at three and will have been shod at two before its feet were mature. And blow me down, but it's already been lame for a long, long time while the vets and farriers failed to get it sound, so there is longstanding damage to be put right. I have my fingers crossed for the horse and the owner. The shame of it is that a tiny proportion of posters on this site (not you Horserider) post as if they would like nothing better than for Rockley to fail