Neck Muscles - Hollow, Build up of cervical trapexium

[Friesianfoal1999]

Hi Guys,
I have posted this here and in the training forum. I have a 8 year old thoroughbred mare who was started late and had a lot of time off work over last winter. She was brough back in June. For her first proper schooling engaging hind legs, stretching the back and on the bit as was behind the vertical previously. (when i say proper i mean a sollid three month of actual training rather than schooling here and there)
She has built up so much muscle and her back end is so much stronger competiting at low level dressage fairly well and really starting to get the self carriage.
However i have always noticed this on her since she was 5 was the neck hollows slightly. It is slight and i probably am being picky.
At first with her schooling she would lean on the bit and be very heavy in the hand, i have corrected this and now light as a feather but this issue is still there.
Are there any exercises or way of training i can use to try correct this or any advice?
I will add its built up a lot when schooling already so not sure if I'm just stressing and she needs more time.

One more thing, the cervical trapexium highlighted slighty dips as it does for the horse in the side ways picture. How do I strengthen that? or is It the thoroughbred in her.

Pictures attached to show what i mean.
Thank you for any advice you can give

 

[be positive]

I think it is partly conformation even though it is muscle, or lack of, the frame underneath is dictating how they build up to an extent, my pba always lacked a little in the same place unless he was getting too fat which was not desirable.
Looking at the photo of your mare she appears to be flexing at the top of her neck just behind the poll, and through her jaw but not really laterally through her body, it is only a neck shot but it would tie in with lacking muscle within the circle and also seeming to at the front of the shoulder with the underside of her neck appearing to be slightly stronger.
I would suspect being as light as a feather is not where she really needs to be at this stage of her training, the fact her bum has built up well is a sign you are going in the right direction but she possibly needs to be guided a little more so you can get a little more lateral bend and a little less just in the jaw/ poll, she is still slightly btv so some more work on a longer lower frame, getting her taking the hand forward while asking for good lateral stretching would be my way forward with her, plenty of easy lateral work should help.

 

[rayneheinze]

Thank you for that.
I must say she has absolutely horrendous conformation. This was a pic I found on the internet but will send one actually of her today.
I’m very happy with her being light because she used to just pull pull and pull and it was tug of war. She’s now listening to the seat and leg to carry herself rather than not being strong enough and taking the reins from me.
I will send the pic but what you say about lateral etc is what I was thinking as well.

 

[rayneheinze]

I think it is partly conformation even though it is muscle, or lack of, the frame underneath is dictating how they build up to an extent, my pba always lacked a little in the same place unless he was getting too fat which was not desirable.
Looking at the photo of your mare she appears to be flexing at the top of her neck just behind the poll, and through her jaw but not really laterally through her body, it is only a neck shot but it would tie in with lacking muscle within the circle and also seeming to at the front of the shoulder with the underside of her neck appearing to be slightly stronger.
I would suspect being as light as a feather is not where she really needs to be at this stage of her training, the fact her bum has built up well is a sign you are going in the right direction but she possibly needs to be guided a little more so you can get a little more lateral bend and a little less just in the jaw/ poll, she is still slightly btv so some more work on a longer lower frame, getting her taking the hand forward while asking for good lateral stretching would be my way forward with her, plenty of easy lateral work should help.

These are the best photos I have atm but she is very tense here. (She decided spinning and reversing was part of our test because of something scary) she is slightly hollow in these but working on it.

 

[Wheels]

The dip doesn't look too bad in the photos you posted of her. Yes it could be partly conformation but also that she is on the forehand with her wither dropped. This will improve over time if you are doing the right type of exercises. It's not only about taking the weight behind, it is about the horse lifting through the thoracic sling to raise the base of the neck and the withers come up more and are held higher between the shoulder blades.

It takes time for the musculuture to strengthen in this area, especially for horses with less than ideal conformation. regularly changing the position of the head and neck between forward down and out, medium posiiton just in front of the vertical and once these are easy you can gradually take more weight behind and come into a higher position with the neck and head but if you do that too soon the neck will contract at the base of the wither and the wither will drop.

changes of balance through going between different lateral exercises will help with this too, the horse should naturally stretch the neck and seek the contact, have a slight mouthing action on the bit once they are in vertical and lateral balance

 

[sbloom]

In hand, lifting the thoracic sling, it's the basis of everything else. Take a look at Dan Wain Equestrian and his posts on FB, that sort of thing, I recommend his approach but there is more and more out there - straightnesstraining.com, Manolo Mendez DVDs, School of Legerete instructors...it's so much better to do this off their backs, others might say it's OTT and to do it ridden, but I'm sure ultimately everyone can understand how it's so much easier with no rider or saddle. If the saddle fit is great and there are no other big compromises you can ride too, no problem, sometimes only straight lines, other times nice easy school work that helps back up the in hand work.

 

[milliepops]

I would suspect being as light as a feather is not where she really needs to be at this stage of her training, the fact her bum has built up well is a sign you are going in the right direction but she possibly needs to be guided a little more so you can get a little more lateral bend and a little less just in the jaw/ poll, she is still slightly btv so some more work on a longer lower frame, getting her taking the hand forward while asking for good lateral stretching would be my way forward with her, plenty of easy lateral work should help.

From the newly added pics I would still agree with BP here. The horse being too heavy in the hand is not desirable but in the pics you've now added you can see she's not into the contact so that lightness is likely to be her holding herself and sitting slightly behind the contact.
Finding the happy medium will help to get her to lift where you want under the saddle/at the wither but still be reaching out over her topline into the hand.
When you start off with a horse that is all in your hand it's quite common for them to go too far the opposite way, so then you have to teach them to have confidence in the contact and to really seek it positively, that's the time when you can place the neck wherever you want it IME and then the work starts to fill in those gaps in the muscle as much as conformation will allow.

 

[Tarragon]

I must be getting better as for once I can see the issues you are discussing in the photos, especially the fact she is just flexing at her poll, and I almost understand the comments!!
I am still struggling with applying my new found knowledge in practice but understanding the theory is a good start

 

[be positive]

From the newly added pics I would still agree with BP here. The horse being too heavy in the hand is not desirable but in the pics you've now added you can see she's not into the contact so that lightness is likely to be her holding herself and sitting slightly behind the contact.
Finding the happy medium will help to get her to lift where you want under the saddle/at the wither but still be reaching out over her topline into the hand.
When you start off with a horse that is all in your hand it's quite common for them to go too far the opposite way, so then you have to teach them to have confidence in the contact and to really seek it positively, that's the time when you can place the neck wherever you want it IME and then the work starts to fill in those gaps in the muscle as much as conformation will allow.

I had thought the first photo was the OP's horse and based my comments on that but in my experience as MP says it is a common issue to get them too light and develop a different issue, we all have our own ideal contact we work towards, it will be lightening over time as they build up.
I like to feel some weight so I can move them about and feel when the power is really coming through from the hind leg they want to lift up and take the nose forward slightly especially when you start asking for a medium pace, if they are too light the power is often being blocked because the rider wants them very light in the hand so inadvertently stopping them moving through their whole body.

 

[tristar]

i think of it it as getting the horse to carry its neck, as an extension of the back, and the head as a totally different and delicate ask and only when the horse is strong enough.

i like to feel the horse taking the contact in a gentle asking way but also positively forward, so i know the horse is not just posing its neck but working from back to front end. true lightness in the hand is for the advanced

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

Thank you all for your responses they have really helped me ad also confirm everything I was thinking. Its very early days of her training so hoping time will definitely be a factor. I have always been told im too much of a "softie" and mustn't be scared to use the reins so I shall work on this.
How is best to get them to lift up the withers, she is downhill so confirmation doesnt help but would like to get the best out of a bad situation if that makes sense. Not asking her to be valegro aha! thanks again for the help.

 

[Wheels]

That's not really a question that can be fully answered on a thread on a forum! The lifting of the withers comes from the proper use of the horses core, the horse being in good horizontal balance, good lateral balance, being in the right tempo, with relaxation, the right level of impulsion. The horse needs to be fairly straight, fairly even on both reins, forward without rushing, supple, coordinated. The rider must also be in balance using the right amount of core, legs, hands, relaxed.
I am not sure what level of riding you are at and what help you have on the ground but having help from someone who is good at equine biomechanics and rider biomechanics can be very helpful.

The horses natural way of going is to carry more weight on the fore legs than the hind but can you feel / tell when one foreleg is weighted more than the other? Does your horse have a favourite side where bending is much easier? First you should aim to straighten the horse.

If your horse is working well as outlined above then a good way to first feel the wither lift is to ensure that the rider is properly following the movement of the horses back in walk, have the horse well in front of the leg so you can follow the movement of the horses rib cage with your legs but without having to use them; the horse should be walking well out without rushing with his / her eye approximately level with the hip and the nose slightly in front of the vertical, the reins in very light contact with no loops in the reins but no real pressure either. The horse should seek the contact with the rider, at this point his / her neck will arch up and forwards, the back and withers lifted. This is what people mean when they say that a horse working through from behind will put itself on the bit. It is a wonderful feeling and an addictive one! Make the conditions right and the horse will offer. Try and force it in any way and that is the best way to make sure it doesnt happen.

There are certain exercises you can use for certain horses that will help bring them into balance and they will again offer it. One rein might need more shoulder in and the other renvers on a circle, it's about finding out what your horse needs to help them stay in good balance and they are always grateful when they find it

Try and get some books on classical riding that will help you with some exercises. Anja Berans 'classical Dressage' has some great explanations (and beautiful photos)

Good luck

 

[sbloom]

How is best to get them to lift up the withers, she is downhill so confirmation doesnt help but would like to get the best out of a bad situation if that makes sense. Not asking her to be valegro aha! thanks again for the help.

By definition it's easier for them to do it in hand, they develop extra strength so that they can later offer it under saddle. This is a broad principle, a good classical trainer would advise whether it is going to be needed for your horse but all horses benefit from good in hand work which is why I recommend it regularly.