Need some non judgment advice regarding purchasing

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Blueysmum

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We full loaned pony for 2 years before owner finally agreed to sell. Pony was practically a rescue case as she was unbroken and skin and bone.

Owner wanting £7000 and I said absolutely no way. We had spent time and a lot of money bringing on green pony who has turned into a once in a lifetime pony. She then said £6k and I said I would want her full vetted. She finally came to £5k and let me pay in instalments of £500 a month as she is also on full livery and very well looked after.

I have £1000 left to pay and pony has became lame. Turns out she’s being tested for Wobblers and being sent to a clinic for further testing. I resent paying anymore to her especially as the next few months are going to be expensive. I’m so stressed so I don’t know if that’s clouding my judgement. She just doesn’t seem interested and never has really.

Argh I’m so emotional, worried and my mummy heart for pony is hurting.
 
Did you get the 5 stage vetting in the end? How old is the pony? Is it a case of the vet ruling it out rather than suspecting it?

I think in this situation, had you paid in full at the time, you wouldn’t have had any recourse. Ponies go lame. If you had the vetting then there’s not much the owner could have done, especially as it’s been in your care for two years.

As hard as it is, I think paying is right. Sorry that this has happened but it’s not the fault of the previous owner from the looks of it.
 
You bought the pony the day you made the first payment. You still owe money but that's your pony. It's really unfortunate and I feel sad for you as you presumably think a lot of the pony but you bought her a year ago. These sort of payment agreements are problematic - but if you think of it as a loan you wouldn't expect your bank or whatever to write off a loan because your car broke down
 
All the background aside, you have agreed a purchase price and instalment plan and you owe this. I presume you had the opportunity to vet the horse before sale and the horse was either ok or you actively chose the risk of no vetting. Again insurance, either option to insure or accepted the risk of not insuring.

It’s horrid (and expensive) when they go wrong, but unfortunately that’s horses. We have all been there, trust me!

Hope whatever is wrong with your horse is manageable
 
As everybody else has said, you need to pay the agreed price for this pony. I have one myself who was diagnosed as a wobbler, he was purchased as a 2yo and passed the vetting with no concerns and was diagnosed 2 years later when he was backed and had issues being ridden. If you didn't notice it until 2 years later, then it's not something the seller could have known, and as an older pony she could have had a fall in your care or its a progression of arthritis both of which are just bad luck sadly.

The basic neurological tests can be done at the yard by a vet or yourself. When you say this

Blueysmum said:
Turns out she’s being tested for Wobblers and being sent to a clinic for further testing.
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do you mean she has failed some of the neurological tests already and you are sending her for neck xrays or a ct myelogram? If it's neck xrays they are not that expensive and may be enough with the neuro tests so that a myelogram is not worth while. There are far more common causes for lameness than wobblers so it might also be something treatable, I hope it's not as bad as you fear.
 
Going against the grain here, but this owner has had a bl00dy good deal from you! You took an unwanted, neglected pony off her hands and restored her to full health and backed her. In doing so at great cost (in time and care costs) to you, you added value such that this animal, who was utterly worthless in monetary terms, had become an asset. The owner made full use of that which took a fair amount of brass neck already! So basically she has swapped a liability she had no interest in for 4k and a load of removed hassle. I think her holding you to the original plan would be entirely unreasonable.

I'd basically spell out the above to her and ask her to waive any further payments under the circumstances.

It may be worth phoning BHS advice line re the contract re whether you do or don't own the pony yet. I tried to pursue non payers for breach of contract and all this 'a contract is valid even if... ' turned out not to be true. The meaning and intent in my contracts was 100% clear in messages, texts, and even the brief but pretty clear contracts themselves. But without every last clause being clarified and set out in legalese, my defaulters had enough wriggle room to get away with not paying, according to both very expensive lawyers I hired (I was chasing almost £10,000). Which is why my contracts with clients are now 20 pages long..... Yes those HP contacts for cars would mean that you pay even if you write off the car on day 1 - but that's because they have pages and pages setting out exactly what happens under different scenarios.

So I think you may be able to argue that you don't yet own the pony and are considering whether you still want to buy her. I know that's not true but that places the discusison on a different footing as unless the contract states what happens if either of you default, then no-one can enforce a consequence for a default.

Plus legalities are not relevant unless anyone seeks to enforce them. You could stop paying, which would make you in breach of contract (such as it is) and a court might agree that ownership reverts to her. Or in fact that ownership just stays with her as legally you may not even own her yet. But would she actually want her back anyway? To do what with? She can't sell a pony on with possible Wobblers. So if she did not agree to waive the fee I'd probably stop paying anyway and say fine, I'll keep loaning her then or you can have her back. And then see what happens. Will she really ever want her back?

And at least that keeps your options open.
 
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The way this part of the original post reads:

Blueysmum said:
Turns out she’s being tested for Wobblers and being sent to a clinic for further testing.
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I'm not sure it is the OP who is in control of this, but I could just have interpreted the wording wrongly?

Does the owner/previous owner/person the pony is being bought from still have input into the management/care of the pony? This would cloud the perspective of whose pony he/she is, and at what point the sale was/is to be made I think?
 
Ambers Echo said:
Going against the grain here, but this owner has had a bl00dy good deal from you! You took an unwanted, neglected pony off her hands and restored her to full health and backed her. In doing so at great cost (in time and care costs) to you, you added value such that this animal, who was utterly worthless in monetary terms, had become an asset. The owner made full use of that which took a fair amount of brass neck already! So basically she has swapped a liability she had no interest in for 4k and a load of removed hassle. I think her holding you to the original plan would be entirely unreasonable.

I'd basically spell out the above to her and ask her to waive any further payments under the circumstances.

It may be worth phoning BHS advice line re the contract re whether you do or don't own the pony yet. I tried to pursue non payers for breach of contract and all this 'a contract is valid even if... ' turned out not to be true. The meaning and intent in my contracts was 100% clear in messages, texts, and even the brief but pretty clear contracts themselves. But without every last clause being clarified and set out in legalese, my defaulters had enough wriggle room to get away with not paying, according to both very expensive lawyers I hired (I was chasing almost £10,000). Which is why my contracts with clients are now 20 pages long..... Yes those HP contacts for cars would mean that you pay even if you write off the car on day 1 - but that's because they have pages and pages setting out exactly what happens under different scenarios.

So I think you may be able to argue that you don't yet own the pony and are considering whether you still want to buy her. I know that's not true but that places the discusison on a different footing as unless the contract states what happens if either of you default, then no-one can enforce a consequence for a default.

Plus legalities are not relevant unless anyone seeks to enforce them. You could stop paying, which would make you in breach of contract (such as it is) and a court might agree that ownership reverts to her. Or in fact that ownership just stays with her as legally you may not even own her yet. But would she actually want her back anyway? To do what with? She can't sell a pony on with possible Wobblers. So if she did not agree to waive the fee I'd probably stop paying anyway and say fine, I'll keep loaning her then or you can have her back. And then see what happens. Will she really ever want her back?

And at least that keeps your options open.
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I agree that the previous owner has taken a liberty and has basically made money out the OP. But that was the OPs choice. I can never fathom why people take youngsters on loan, ride them away without having an agreement in place about future value / sales etc etc.
But the OP agreed to that, as they agreed to a value / purchase price. Plus the OP has known the pony ( and had the enjoyment ) for just short of 3 years by the looks of things. The fact that the pony is now unwell is just part of horse ownership. Im sure if the pony hadnt become unwell, and the OP had gone on to sell the pony for the full £7k after they had finished paying for him/her then no one would be disputing that.

i find it disappointing that in this situation you would even consider not paying in full.
 
Tbh, I would never be in that situation anyway for all the reasons you have outlined. The owner was a neglectful owner and the loaner was being taken for a complete ride. So I am angry on her behalf - hence my reply - but it just would not have happened in the first place to me. I'd have only been willing to buy the pony outright (as I did once with a pony for £50 who was being neglected). I would never take on a rescue that could just be sold on by the owner once I had rehabbed and backed her.

Also my reply is focused more on requesting payment be waived by owner. Which owner really REALLY should do if she has one ounce of decency in her.

I am not a non-payer at all. I am a very fair-minded person. But equally when there is no contract and no agreement if/when..... then actually it is not as straight forward as: you owe it so pay it.
 
ester said:
See I always read that the pony wasn’t yours until the final payment, not after the first.
It is a bit of a complication with payment plans.
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I think this is complicated...I've know a similar situation where there was a verbal contract and the original owner took the view that the pony was no longer her responsibility once the loaner/new owner had made the first payment. Although they remained on the same yard and things remained fairly friendly, the original owner had nothing to do with the pony once the terms had been agreed and the first payment received.
However, if the agreement - written or spoken - is that the original owner remains involved with the pony in any way, I can see this being a lot more problematic.
Hence I think it's all down to what was agreed. Obviously, written agreements are best but verbal agreements still count - even though it can get very tricky if the parties have different recollections of what was said at the time.
 
This is why people won’t do payment plans. If you had purchased the pony for the price in full on the day, that money would be gone and being in this situation would just be one of those horrible things that sometimes happens.

I’m not saying you should/shouldn’t have bought the pony, had/not had a vetting, got insurance (or not). Just that you have known the pony for over 2 and a half years, ‘bought’ the pony 8 months ago when the pony was, to your eye at least, in good health. It is definitely worth asking if the original owner would waive the last thousand, but if not, realistically, this does happen. Even on trial in a couple of weeks, an injury can lame a pony. Wobblers diagnosed this late would likely be arthritis or injury related, not congenital.

I hope whatever it is can be treated successfully and that the pony returns to full health.
 
Given that you've already parted with five grand (and I don't see this woman handing that money back to you under any circumstances, from what you've said of her) I would pay the remaining £1000 and at least be rid of the hassle of a neglectful owner being involved in the situation. The pony will be yours to do with what you please. So you choose what investigations are done, and what treatment is given. If you have the ability to stump up that final £1000 I would just grit your teeth and do it.

If the pony has been under your care for so long presumably it is insured, so at least some of the vet bills will be covered?

I've been in a somewhat similar situation before (seller who turned out to be a nasty piece of work and couldn't give a flying monkeys about the welfare and future of the ponies she bred) and honestly, if you have the financial freedom to do so, I would just buy the pony and get this person off your back. Trying to negotiate and be reasonable with someone who only cares about money is not going to do your well being any good at all. And like @Ambers Echo says, it won't be clear cut in a legal sense, so you could get lawyers involved and argue until the cows come home, but it will cost you more than the pony and therefore isn't worth it.
 
Lucky Snowball said:
The OP and her family are presumably very fond of the pony and probably want to keep it whatever the legal and financial situation is. Let’s not forget the poor pony.
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Yes exactly - I think full ownership ASAP is probably the best way forwards, if it's financially viable. That way the pony gets the best possible care (whatever turns out to be the issue) and the OP no longer has to deal with the previous owner.
 
Ethically I'd say you agreed to pay for the pony so you can't change your mind now.

I think legally it may be different. I'm not sure a private individual can arrange a payment plan, they might need to be a finance company to legally provide that with all the necessary checks and agreements that entails and therefore the whole arrangement is void. It could be that you don't own the pony until you have finished paying and could now reject the 'goods' as they are not what you expected and get a refund.

I really don't know but I doubt it's cut and dried. Take legal advice.
 
What outcome would you want from this? The seller to lower the price so you can treat the pony? The seller to take the pony back? If you had bought the pony for a lower price in full this still would have happened. Is pony insured? Have you had a full medical done? To be honest seller could say you have damaged the pony.
 
Blueysmum said:
Turns out she’s being tested for Wobblers and being sent to a clinic for further testing.
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This part confused me.

It sounds like the pony still lives with the people you are buying her from. Is this the case? It's certainly botching things up because they are making the decisions and it's clouding things for you. It would be good to pay the 1,000 pounds you owe asap and have the pony fully under your control. You'll feel better when that happens. But yes, I agree that it's a rotton situation for you at present.
 
An arrangement where a party leases (for free, for example) is frought.

Just to give an example (and this has nothing to do with anything really) I once owned a lovely mare who I'd bought as a 2yo. She was broken in very well by a friend's brother, who took special care of my filly because he had a crush on me.

Now this filly was a good sort, but she wasn't really suited to me. I like sooky horses, well-built, cobbish types, but my mare was an independent girl, with some Arab and TB blood (her grandsire was an Anglo Arab). So after some years, a lovely foal by a local Lipizzaner, 4 years of yelled instruction from an alcoholic riding instructor, I free-leased my mare to a girl who loved her (who had met her at my instructor's establishment). Even her father loved my mare. And this girl had her for I-can't-remember-how-long, some years, when one day I get a phone call from her telling me that she would like to own my mare, feels that she shouldn't have to pay anything because she has spend so much on her over the years, blah blah (said nicely) and I was really quite taken aback because I didn't care about her having my mare for nothing anyway. So I just said, 'Yes, you can have the mare. She's yours.' Or something like that.

Not sure where I'm going with this saga, but... yes, I hope everything soon falls into place for you.
 
Lois Lame said:
This part confused me.
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It confused me too, but for different reasons.

OP says that owner doesn't show any interest in the horse, but also says that the owner has had the vet out, and is sending the horse to the clinic for further tests.

That doesn't sound like a disinterested owner to me. That sounds like someone who cares very much about the horse.

Ultimately, OP it's a bit of a mess. I would suggest maybe meeting the owner for a coffee and seeing if you can thrash out a fair solution before you go down the legal route.
 
ester said:
I read 'being sent' is that her primary vet is sending pony to referral clinic for more work up.
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It’s the ‘being sent’ that confused me too. A vet will advise what investigations to undertake, but they wouldn’t send the pony off to have them done. That’s would sit with the pony’s carer.
If the pony was in OPs care I would have expected the phrasing to be something like “the vet has advised she goes to a clinic to test for wobblers”
The OPs comment makes it sound like someone else (the person she is purchasing the pony from?) is coordinating the veterinary care.
 
ester said:
I read 'being sent' is that her primary vet is sending pony to referral clinic for more work up.
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It's a strange turn of phase. I have a wobbler, he had neurological symptoms so the normal vet practice did neck and back xrays which only takes about an hour and was enough to know there was a problem.

The next step, if necessary, is a ct myelogram which comes with risks and a high cost so someone has to pay for it and sign the consent forms. The primary vet can make a referral, but the referral practise contacts the owner / carer to make arrangements for the horse to be brought to them.

Since the OP hasn't been back to clarify what's going on its a bit odd to say the least.
 
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