Needing some thoughts on youngster

GrassChop said:
I could but I just don't think it would be fair on him to be a pet. He enjoys doing stuff and if I can't even currently take him out in hand, what's the point? I don't want him to be cooped up all his life as much as I'd love him to stay.
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I had a NF X I got as a companion to my foal. He sounds very much like your boy. He knew his own strength and when he was scared he wanted his herd and he wanted it now.
I sold him to a fellow HHO’er, I had him broken in but no more. He was ok all his life with a confident rider.
I can’t say any more unless they want to add stuff.
I led him with a chain over his nose and my elbow permanently parked in his neck/ shoulder so he couldn’t block against me. I would never have led him anywhere through choice!
 
smolmaus said:
I dont think it's fair to either of you GC to keep telling yourself he wasn't scared or spooking at something. There's very few other reasons for a horse to turn tail and run. If he isn't giving you any more subtle signs that he is getting over threshold that's one thing, but it doesn't do anyone any favours to pretend he's just doing it for a giggle.
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I would say he is napping as he has been quite nappy at times in the school. I don't know any other reason why he'd do it because he's done that route so many times without issue, nothing has changed and we are still at "home" so it's not a new area or out of comfort zone.
 
Clodagh said:
I had a NF X I got as a companion to my foal. He sounds very much like your boy. He knew his own strength and when he was scared he wanted his herd and he wanted it now.
I sold him to a fellow HHO’er, I had him broken in but no more. He was ok all his life with a confident rider.
I can’t say any more unless they want to add stuff.
I led him with a chain over his nose and my elbow permanently parked in his neck/ shoulder so he couldn’t block against me. I would never have led him anywhere through choice!
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Interesting!
Mine is in a control headcollar too and he knows when it's on or not!
 
paddy555 said:
I'm really sorry it's come to this for you and hope you can come to terms with it. You didn't mess it up or go wrong. I think you simply got to the stage with a "little boy horse" who reached the age of asking "what if I won't" They can be very quick at it.

I think you are very right there. There is also the question of weight. I remember Bert (SO1) and the problems in keeping weight off a native.
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I have got used to managing his weight, he lives off nothing which is the total opposite to my mare.

It just frustrates me how well behaved he is for new people but it does make me wonder if he'd be the same once he gets used to someone!
 
GrassChop said:
I would say he is napping as he has been quite nappy at times in the school. I don't know any other reason why he'd do it because he's done that route so many times without issue, nothing has changed and we are still at "home" so it's not a new area or out of comfort zone.
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Napping always has a reason behind it too. And even though I dont like the term, turning and running for home is rather stretching the definition.

Like, it doesn't have to change anything about what you do going forward but I don’t think you should make a decision based on him doing this out of badness or for no reason at all. There will be a reason that makes sense to him.
 
Clodagh said:
I had a NF X I got as a companion to my foal. He sounds very much like your boy. He knew his own strength and when he was scared he wanted his herd and he wanted it now.
I sold him to a fellow HHO’er, I had him broken in but no more. He was ok all his life with a confident rider.
I can’t say any more unless they want to add stuff.
I led him with a chain over his nose and my elbow permanently parked in his neck/ shoulder so he couldn’t block against me. I would never have led him anywhere through choice!
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And when they decide to go they will just lock their necks and go - it can really be quite a dangerous habit once they know they can do it any time they want to avoid something thats outside their comfort zone. Obviously not saying they need bullied over their threshold but gradual introduction to 'scary' stuff with a confident person. As a kid i really really struggled when my little nf used to do the same but thankfully had mum around at all times to step in as a calm authority. For op on their own I think it could be dangerous on the roads quite easily.
 
smolmaus said:
Napping always has a reason behind it too. And even though I dont like the term, turning and running for home is rather stretching the definition.

Like, it doesn't have to change anything about what you do going forward but I don’t think you should make a decision based on him doing this out of badness or for no reason at all. There will be a reason that makes sense to him.
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Who knows what goes on in his head. I suppose it means he has learnt he can get out of doing something that might put him out of his comfort zone and also that he can run straight back down for the grass at the bottom. That's usually a main motive, hence the control headcollar. He only goes to where there is food.

All I know is he only does it with me and I don't have the strength or seemingly capability to stop it.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
And when they decide to go they will just lock their necks and go - it can really be quite a dangerous habit once they know they can do it any time they want to avoid something thats outside their comfort zone. Obviously not saying they need bullied over their threshold but gradual introduction to 'scary' stuff with a confident person. As a kid i really really struggled when my little nf used to do the same but thankfully had mum around at all times to step in as a calm authority. For op on their own I think it could be dangerous on the roads quite easily.
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That's it and why I have stopped doing anything because I don't want to make things worse. I will just have the trainer come up instead in the meantime to keep him ticking over. Also one of the reasons why I don't have the confidence to ride him anymore because I don't want to end up in that situation where we are actually out and off the premises if it happened. It hasn't happened but it's now in my head.

Obviously I don't know if a basic snaffle is actually helpful in this instance either but I didn't really want to pile up on metal for something that should be solved in other ways.

The annoying thing is he is extremely brave with most things, I've had huge sheets of tarp waved around him, blowing in 40mph winds while trying to fold the bloody thing. Anything scary you could think of, it doesn't bother him in the slightest; sheep stampedes running passed his legs while out, pigs, forest animals, horse stampedes, vans, tractors, umbrellas, trailers, even to the point lunging is hard work because he doesn't care about lunge whips (unless someone else is doing it then the lunge whip is scary but if it's me, he doesn't care what I do with it). He couldn't care less when he was being long reined out, he'd have been happy enough going without me on foot as he's just so independent and naturally forward. Obviously he has spooked at the odd bird that suddenly comes out the bush but nothing else. This is why it doesn't make sense on the spinning, I really don't think it's fear.
 
But the sensation of walking out ridden versus long reined or in hand is radically different and if you are nervous now as well it could absolutely be a vicious cycle of your low confidence affecting him. He's going, 'wow I can smell cortisol, adrenaline, I can feel tense muscles, everything seems ok but what if it's not? Better head home where it's safe just in case!' honestly I think young horses you kind of have to fake it till you make it. But that is really really difficult when you've had negative experiences as you have which could have been genuinely dangerous, and consequently lowered your confidence
 
FieldOrnaments said:
But the sensation of walking out ridden versus long reined or in hand is radically different and if you are nervous now as well it could absolutely be a vicious cycle of your low confidence affecting him. He's going, 'wow I can smell cortisol, adrenaline, I can feel tense muscles, everything seems ok but what if it's not? Better head home where it's safe just in case!' honestly I think young horses you kind of have to fake it till you make it. But that is really really difficult when you've had negative experiences as you have which could have been genuinely dangerous, and consequently lowered your confidence
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That's the thing, I wasn't nervous. I was fine before he did it under saddle on both occasions but obviously lost my nerve after that and consequently haven't ridden since but I hadn't been nervous riding him right up to the point of the spin and taking off. I wasn't anxious or adrenaline fuelled with the long reining incident either which was all under one session. I was consistent, firm and calm and he still did it 3 times, getting away on the last 2.

Obviously yes now after those incidents, I'm not going to be confident to ride him again because of how badly it could have ended and that will always be in my head so I don't see how that will ever be rebuilt anyway now and I wouldn't bother trying to long rein that way again because I'll be expecting it and if I can't hold him if he does it then he's only going to continue to learn that it works so I am technically at a loss.
 
GrassChop said:
Who knows what goes on in his head. I suppose it means he has learnt he can get out of doing something that might put him out of his comfort zone and also that he can run straight back down for the grass at the bottom. That's usually a main motive, hence the control headcollar. He only goes to where there is food.

All I know is he only does it with me and I don't have the strength or seemingly capability to stop it.
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This is why I suggested a behaviourist. It's their job to interpret behaviour.

If you don't want to investigate further you obviously don't have to, but you also don't seem to want to sell him and I don't know what the other options are.
 
smolmaus said:
This is why I suggested a behaviourist. It's their job to interpret behaviour.

If you don't want to investigate further you obviously don't have to, but you also don't seem to want to sell him and I don't know what the other options are.
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I hadn't considered it to be honest. I just figured that if it's only me he does it with and he'd be fine with someone else then the issue is me and not him.
 
GrassChop said:
I've had my boy from 6 months old and he is 5 in a couple of months. It's the first time I've had a horse from that age and completely started from scratch. He was straight off the forest so everything he knows up to now I have done myself which has all been completely new to me.

It hasn't been an easy journey and it has been a complete rollercoaster from being proud of him to honestly disliking him altogether. He's a very independent boy and brave. He's also always been extremely destructive though this has eased up slightly. I've had plenty of issues of him being bolshy and a total *ss, I hear this is typical boy behaviour and to be honest, I am more of a female animal person in general so this doesn't help. There has also been several occasions where he has just scared me because he has become too much to handle, gets too strong and forgets his boundaries. If I tell myself honestly, I have had too many occasions where I don't want anything to do with him because of his behaviour and that can't be normal. Obviously I have pushed through this and we have had lots of good experiences too. I have had all sorts of antics with my mare but never ever once considered not having her anymore, she could do anything and I'd still love her. For some reason, he has the ability to make me want nothing to do with him after he's been a complete idiot and I know in my heart that can't be right but I don't want to give up.

I've been slowly progressing into ridden work, I backed him in terms of taking a rider and doing short bouts of ridden work in walk and plan to get someone in to continue putting him through his paces because I'm no where near experienced enough to do that or to have even gotten this far but here we are.

I had my longest ridden hack on him recently, only about 20 minutes in walk down the lane and back and he was honestly brilliant, loved him to bits after that for being so good. However, today was completely different, just lost his head through excitement so I got off to lead and it was just hell for me, I lost my nerve because again, he forgot his boundaries and I was scared of getting hurt. Straight away, one bad experience and I regret spending all that money recently on getting him a decent saddle fitted and debating selling him again (this really isn't normal to feel this way is it?).

He is also showing a slight stubborn streak where he's not happy when I'm asking him to get on and do something, i.e. ride past the gate or walk on if he wants to stop and say hello to the horses so I don't want to end up losing confidence if he does something, I'd rather someone who knows what they're doing to train him through this.

I also have a potential issue that he has a learnt behaviour from my mare of panic reacting and this is one of the scariest bits for me because it puts me in a risky situation. She's not a nice companion and I have mentioned in a thread before that I have had to split them with an electric fence because I'd been mowed down twice by his panic running from a flick of her ears and I've been in the way. He's also got himself in situations before jumping through electric fences because he doesn't think before running from her so this was the safest option and also dietary requirements played a big part too. I'm concerned that this is now a behaviour with other things that scare him. He blindly panics and I know it's not something I can sort without help and I lose my nerve when he starts doing this because he's extremely strong and I don't want to get myself crushed, it's only been sheer luck of dodging it other than the other times. Will help even change this now?

The thing is, I've struggled to bond with him from the start. I've had more bad experiences than good that weigh on me more. I've tried so hard to push through and build my relationship with him but he doesn't make it easy. Is it possible for it to take 5 years and ongoing to know if a horse is right for you? I hate the thought of moving him on but I feel like I need to seriously consider it now before it is too late but I am stubborn and I also don't want to regret anything. Should I make the decision now or get him ridden away and then decide? Or is the ridden aspect not the issue, is it his personality that just doesn't click with me? Will he change as he grows up and works more? Will I bond with him more when he is riding out nicely and not losing his head when things get exciting? Or should I have already clicked with him by now?

I really need the hive mind of HHO to help me here. I'm really struggling with what to do.
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Twenty minutes of enjoyment in five years? He’d be better off with a more suited partner, and so would you. It’s a very expensive, time-consuming hobby for neither of you to be benefitting. Good luck.
 
GrassChop said:
I would say he is napping as he has been quite nappy at times in the school. I don't know any other reason why he'd do it because he's done that route so many times without issue, nothing has changed and we are still at "home" so it's not a new area or out of comfort zone.
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Horses nap through lack of confidence (in themselves and/or their handler), fear, pain.

If a horse is happy and content they just don’t do it.

This is not meant as a criticism.
 
GrassChop said:
I hadn't considered it to be honest. I just figured that if it's only me he does it with and he'd be fine with someone else then the issue is me and not him.
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Personally I wouldn’t. Not because it’s not a fair suggestion but for whatever reason the chemistry/personality clash is there and you have an underlying fear of him now. IMO that never fully goes away
 
GrassChop said:
I hadn't considered it to be honest. I just figured that if it's only me he does it with and he'd be fine with someone else then the issue is me and not him.
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It might be? But if it is a relationship problem, I'd like to think it could still be repairable given how long you've been together. But you can't fix it if you don't know what bit broke.

ihatework said:
Personally I wouldn’t. Not because it’s not a fair suggestion but for whatever reason the chemistry/personality clash is there and you have an underlying fear of him now. IMO that never fully goes away
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Don't disagree with this either, but you do have to balance that against possibly regretting not trying it. Completely personal balance.
 
GrassChop said:
In the meantime, what do I do with him if he doesn't sell?
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Drop the price until he does? Advertise more widely? Are you on the various Fb groups? There’s always the sales in Beaulieu too. And keep the pro coming while you wait.

I wouldn’t loan. Anyone who knows what they are doing enough to benefit him wouldn’t want to improve a horse they had to hand back.
 
Ultimately it comes down to whether or not you see him as your ridden horse for the next X amount of years or not.

If you really want to sell look for a sales yard. They will market him to right audience to get the best price and will have a handle on where to value him.

Or if your still undecided speak to your instructor about him going to them for a few weeks. I think you'll ha e more confidence on him in a different environment. And hopefully he will you.
 
Clodagh said:
Could you loan him?
Failing that they will always sell for the right price. But it can be a risk.
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I decided against it as I didn't want to risk him potentially coming back worse and make it harder to sell. I also didn't think there would be many people that would want to loan a youngster that they'd have to bring on!
 
ihatework said:
Are you wanting/happy to invest money or are you looking to cut losses?
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I don't particularly want to spend too much money but I'm happy to keep paying the trainer to come out a couple of times in the week to keep him ticking over in the meantime so that he is ready to go for someone else and ideally on the basis it won't take long to sell.

If we get a month down the line then I'd have to reevaluate and just sell him as "started but will need bringing on as hasn't done much" for example. Otherwise the money I'm getting from him will only be paying off what I've spent which doesn't really seem worth it.

He may just have to sit in the field which is annoying because he's been started now and would have been nice to continue it but needs to weigh up.
 
dorsetladette said:
Ultimately it comes down to whether or not you see him as your ridden horse for the next X amount of years or not.

If you really want to sell look for a sales yard. They will market him to right audience to get the best price and will have a handle on where to value him.

Or if your still undecided speak to your instructor about him going to them for a few weeks. I think you'll ha e more confidence on him in a different environment. And hopefully he will you.
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He was going to be but honestly after everything, I just think I'd be too nervous to get back on him and I was hoping that what he was learning with someone else would follow on to when I got on but it hasn't as it stands. He's two different personalities.

I looked at sales yards but I can't see the logic in it. They might get £3-4k for him but then you're spending £300 odd a week so unless sold in 6 weeks, you're not really going to make much from it unless I've misunderstood how it works? I've seen local sales liveries that have had horses on their books for ages, one being a forester. I can't see him selling quickly in this current market.
 
GrassChop said:
He was going to be but honestly after everything, I just think I'd be too nervous to get back on him and I was hoping that what he was learning with someone else would follow on to when I got on but it hasn't as it stands. He's two different personalities.

I looked at sales yards but I can't see the logic in it. They might get £3-4k for him but then you're spending £300 odd a week so unless sold in 6 weeks, you're not really going to make much from it unless I've misunderstood how it works? I've seen local sales liveries that have had horses on their books for ages, one being a forester. I can't see him selling quickly in this current market.
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No, on a low value horse anyway the financial input is not worth the output.

In your current situation the only benefit of spending £300pw (which is what decent schooling livery costs these days) is to improve him and optimise your chance to find the best future home. But it’s an uneconomical route for sure.

If I were looking to minimise spend and time spent keeping I’d either advertise him widely as a project for 1-1.5k and take an offer or put through the NF sales.
 
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