Neutering puppies (or not)

[Widgeon]

Would anyone like to attempt to persuade me either way re. the pros and cons of early neutering, particularly with regard to physical development? Our vet seems to be keen on parting boys from their boy bits ASAP (and I'm sure they have good reasons for this, which I will obviously talk to them about), but I'm aware that's not everyone's opinion and based on what I've read, I'm still unsure whether it's a good idea. If I'm going to end up disagreeing with the vet I want to be confident of my own opinion....so can anyone provide their opinions and experiences and/or point me at some useful resources? If it makes any difference, the puppy in question is a male Cairn terrier.

Thank you all!

 

[MissTyc]

Following.

We have a Cairn X puppy boy just come in, so am interested as well.

Haven't had a male dog for many years, and never a neutered one. But times have changed and neutering seems to give them better opportunities and playtime these days!

 

[Alec Swan]

Your vet is a disgrace to their profession if their advice is ASAP. No need to disagree or give your reasons, your dog your choice. There are a host of reasons why castration should be a last resort, and google can supply them to you.

I'm totally opposed to the needless neutering of dogs, but if you must do it, then at least wait until the pup is 12 months, and then find a different vet to carry out the procedure, would be my advice to you.

Alec.

 

[Widgeon]

Your vet is a disgrace to their profession if their advice is ASAP. No need to disagree or give your reasons, your dog your choice. There are a host of reasons why castration should be a last resort, and google can supply them to you.

I'm totally opposed to the needless neutering of dogs, but if you must do it, then at least wait until the pup is 12 months, and then find a different vet to carry out the procedure, would be my advice to you.

Alec.

Thank you - I thought there would be some strong opinions out there! Yes, I was starting to come to the conclusion that it would be best to just leave it and see how things go - then if we're having major problems that neutering might solve (which I would like to think is unlikely - I'm hoping that better training will be the answer to everything) it can always happen later.

 

[Thistle]

Extensively covered in this http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?747272-Spaying-keyhole-vs-traditional recent post

 

[Widgeon]

Extensively covered in this http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?747272-Spaying-keyhole-vs-traditional recent post

Thanks very much - I thought that might be the case but my forum searching skills were clearly not up to the job...I will take myself over there and have a read.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If you must do it, please wait until the dog is mature.

 

[blackcob]

Some resources I've found useful:

http://www.2ndchance.info/cruciatelongtermneuter.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096726/ (breed specific but gives you an idea of the issues at stake)
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that routine neutering of bitches is essential - pyos and mammary lump surgeries are daily occurences at work. The jury is out on when is the best time to do it, however. As per the other thread I had a bitch done early and I've no idea if I'd make the same decision again, the next one will be another dog.

For dogs, I would leave 'em unless they cause a problem, then review with vet/trainer/behaviourist as necessary. Be prepared for castration in an older dog if/when BPH occurs. I'm a little biased on this one as my childhood dog died of a testicular/rectal cancer that could probably have been prevented by castration (the one entire dog currently in the family therefore endures having his testicles checked regularly, poor sod) but I can see that the evidence is stacked against routine early neutering of dogs.

 

[gunnergundog]

Came across a new one (for me) the other day: the link between neutering and auto-immune issues https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-016-0911-5

 

[fburton]

Is it generally considered that neutering improves temperament, or can it also have undesired effects?

 

[Thistle]

If a dog is submissive then neutering can make it even worse, things like fear aggression can get worse, submissive peeing can become a problem. Early neutering can stop a dog growing up mentally, leading to constant puppy behaviour.

 

[Equi]

Hormones play a huge part in all animals development, both physically and mentally. Anyone who says otherwise is frankly an idiot. There is however a fine line, for example you want them to be physically and mentally mature, but not get to the point they are testosterone fueled devils who only ever think about humping, but as with stallions you train them and manage them - neutering is great for stupid owners who haven't a clue, but for anyone with half a brain and some inclination to actually train can manage an entire dog just fine.

My rescue lab was only recently castrated because he did get a swelling in one testicle, at about 11..but before that his behaviour and mental state was typical labrador (i.e. a big lovable goofball)

 

[Alec Swan]

Is it generally considered that neutering improves temperament, or can it also have undesired effects?

In a word, No. The only certain thing that castrating a dog *will* do is that it'll prevent it from siring pups. Castration *may* also reduce the desire to mate, though that's far from certain.
When humans were routinely castrated and to form eunuchs for Court purposes, they were always 'cut' pre-puberty. This had the effect that they had very little in the way of male characteristics or appearance often, and that they often reached heights of well in excess of six feet. They showed no signs of masculinity because they no longer produced testosterone in sufficient quantity. Rather like horses, cattle, sheep and it seems humans, the result with dogs is that the effect of being asexual is achieved, when they are cut pre-pubesence.

They may also, and like humans and horses, grow to outlandish size and certainly taller than one might expect from the parentage. Have we ever wondered why we produce so many 17-18hh geldings from parents which are of 16hh? Early gelding is often the answer.

Alec.

 

[Equi]

They may also, and like humans and horses, grow to outlandish size and certainly taller than one might expect from the parentage. Have we ever wondered why we produce so many 17-18hh geldings from parents which are of 16hh? Early gelding is often the answer.

Alec.

My lad is 17hh and was a BOGOF out of a 15.2 tb mare, father is most likely a cob cause i don't know too many 16hh++ coloured stallions that are breeding tb mares willy nilly! Hes a total wuss and has zero interest in any mares so i can only assume he got cut early.

 

[SusieT]

There are arguements either way but for well behaved boys there's no harm in leaving it til their older and may be harm doing them younger - but if he starts doing naughty boy things best to whip them off asap
Big dogs I'd personally leave til 1yr +

 

[SusieT]

The argument for early neutering causing animals to grow enormous is a bit debunked by the fact that people have gradually grown taller over the centuries - and they weren't neutered!

 

[Equi]

The argument for early neutering causing animals to grow enormous is a bit debunked by the fact that people have gradually grown taller over the centuries - and they weren't neutered!

Evolution and abnormal height from lack of testosterone are two completely different things. Unfotunately you can not research how large an animal would have been if it was not castrated, but ive been part of staffordshire bull terrier groups for a long time and a hell of a lot of the time the neutered animals are taller and narrower than the unneutered animals.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Testosterone does encourage the growth plates to close, though, so you could expect entire males to be taller than neutered siblings. I'll see if I can dig out the study I like, it's pretty balanced and the health benefits are fairly pro/con for both sides.

Copy and paste link into your browser: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

 

[Elsbells]

Your vet is a disgrace to their profession if their advice is ASAP. No need to disagree or give your reasons, your dog your choice. There are a host of reasons why castration should be a last resort, and google can supply them to you.

I'm totally opposed to the needless neutering of dogs, but if you must do it, then at least wait until the pup is 12 months, and then find a different vet to carry out the procedure, would be my advice to you.

Alec.

Absolutely agree with Alec and it one of my hates about over zealous and over bookish vets! I have never had any if my dogs "done" and why should I. They have never posed a problem and unless stupid bitch owners choose to walk their in season bitch away from home or past mine, there shouldn't be. My bitches however, I have spayed by having the ovaries removed only and that has been difficult at times to find a practise that will do as I ask until I've asked the vet their reasons to remove everything?
Once they've gone away and researched they've agreed to do it. Would you advocate removing the make parts of a 7 year old human boy and if you did what would be the outcome on his life do you think?

 

[Equi]

Testosterone does encourage the growth plates to close, though, so you could expect entire males to be taller than neutered siblings.

Your statement is a bit contradictory, was there a typo?

 

[Equi]

Absolutely agree with Alec and it one of my hates about over zealous and over bookish vets! I have never had any if my dogs "done" and why should I. They have never posed a problem and unless stupid bitch owners choose to walk their in season bitch away from home or past mine, there shouldn't be. My bitches however, I have spayed by having the ovaries removed only and that has been difficult at times to find a practise that will do as I ask until I've asked the vet their reasons to remove everything?
Once they've gone away and researched they've agreed to do it. Would you advocate removing the make parts of a 7 year old human boy and if you did what would be the outcome on his life do you think?

I wanted to keep my staffy bitch entire but never planned to breed her as i didn't think she as worthy and she was much too game, but after she was stolen (and i got her back thankfully) i wanted just one more thing that would make her more "useless" to anyone. God forbid she got stolen again i would never have wanted her to end up in some garden shed firing out pups for the ring.

 

[madmav]

Hilarious. No idea what the science is behind that, maybe someone was nicking the gonads of dinosaurs and that's why they got so freakingly big.

 

[Equi]

Hilarious. No idea what the science is behind that, maybe someone was nicking the gonads of dinosaurs and that's why they got so freakingly big.

Or maybe someone needs to read about history and evolution omg hahhaha seriously watch Nat Geo or something because you need an education

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Your statement is a bit contradictory, was there a typo?

Oh god, yes, multi tasking, sorry! Was thinking of my freakishly tall springers who were cut late. Teach me to proof read!

 

[fburton]

Testosterone does encourage the growth plates to close, though, so you could expect entire males to be taller than neutered siblings. I'll see if I can dig out the study I like, it's pretty balanced and the health benefits are fairly pro/con for both sides.

Copy and paste link into your browser: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

A great overview - thanks!

I did some library research into the effect of testosterone on growth plates and found the paper I quote here:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...nformation&p=12690243&viewfull=1#post12690243

with the conclusion being that castration delayed growth plate closure but didn't affect growth rate, with the result being longer bones.

 

[ester]

Absolutely agree with Alec and it one of my hates about over zealous and over bookish vets! I have never had any if my dogs "done" and why should I. They have never posed a problem and unless stupid bitch owners choose to walk their in season bitch away from home or past mine, there shouldn't be. My bitches however, I have spayed by having the ovaries removed only and that has been difficult at times to find a practise that will do as I ask until I've asked the vet their reasons to remove everything?
Once they've gone away and researched they've agreed to do it. Would you advocate removing the make parts of a 7 year old human boy and if you did what would be the outcome on his life do you think?

He might have a very successful career as a castrato?

Actually wiki even mentions the effect on their ribs being longer improving breath capacity rubbish source obv

 

[Widgeon]

Testosterone does encourage the growth plates to close, though, so you could expect entire males to be taller than neutered siblings. I'll see if I can dig out the study I like, it's pretty balanced and the health benefits are fairly pro/con for both sides.

Copy and paste link into your browser: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Interesting document - thanks. Made me wonder why very early neutering is still so commonly recommended? Perhaps that is a very naive question.

 

[ponyparty]

As an owner of a (recently neutered - last week!) male Manchester Terrier, I was concerned about having him done too early. The breed can display nervous traits, so I was worried about the loss of testosterone making him nervous/submissive. However, with his balls on, he was becoming a pain; humping any dog he came across in the park, I mean really trying to go for it, licking bitch pee off the grass, becoming deaf to my commands, and the final straw was when confronted with a potentially aggressive dog, he would retaliate rather than ignore as previously.

As I was so worried about potential negative effects of neutering, I had him implanted with a temporary (6 months) testosterone inhibiting implant - he was 12 months old by this point - to see how he fared. It took about 4-6 weeks to kick in. I did notice him become slightly more nervous at first (afraid of loud noises e.g. when unloading the dishwasher) but he grew in confidence over time, started responding to my commands again, stopped reacting to other dogs - would check in with me as to whether he was allowed to go over to them, and would come away from them immediately I called him...

It lasted pretty much dead on 6 months, and within a few weeks of the 6 month date he was back to his entire dog behaviours, so I have gone ahead with the neuter now as a permanent solution.

I cannot WAIT for the effects of the neuter to kick in haha he has gone from the obedient, easy going little dog I had been enjoying for 6 months or so back to a tearaway, randy, bitch-obsessed little monster! He's rubbed a bald patch onto my mum's Maltese bitch's tail base because he follows her around sniffing her arse so much! :-/

ETA: implant name if you're interested is Suprelorin

 

[MotherOfChickens]

As an owner of a (recently neutered - last week!) male Manchester Terrier, I was concerned about having him done too early. The breed can display nervous traits, so I was worried about the loss of testosterone making him nervous/submissive. However, with his balls on, he was becoming a pain; humping any dog he came across in the park, I mean really trying to go for it, licking bitch pee off the grass, becoming deaf to my commands, and the final straw was when confronted with a potentially aggressive dog, he would retaliate rather than ignore as previously.

As I was so worried about potential negative effects of neutering, I had him implanted with a temporary (6 months) testosterone inhibiting implant - he was 12 months old by this point - to see how he fared. It took about 4-6 weeks to kick in. I did notice him become slightly more nervous at first (afraid of loud noises e.g. when unloading the dishwasher) but he grew in confidence over time, started responding to my commands again, stopped reacting to other dogs - would check in with me as to whether he was allowed to go over to them, and would come away from them immediately I called him...

It lasted pretty much dead on 6 months, and within a few weeks of the 6 month date he was back to his entire dog behaviours, so I have gone ahead with the neuter now as a permanent solution.

I cannot WAIT for the effects of the neuter to kick in haha he has gone from the obedient, easy going little dog I had been enjoying for 6 months or so back to a tearaway, randy, bitch-obsessed little monster! He's rubbed a bald patch onto my mum's Maltese bitch's tail base because he follows her around sniffing her arse so much! :-/

ETA: implant name if you're interested is Suprelorin

thanks for posting-I remember when you asked about the implant initially and glad it worked for you. I do believe neutering a dog can reduce certain behaviours as I've seen it in a friend's lab (neutered at 6yo. he had been the poster boy for not routinely neutering the family dog - a really lovely boy. but he started getting reactive on walks for not reason they could think of-as she had two young girls in tow on walks they decided finally to get him done-the reactivity stopped). Of course he had the benefit of being done late, the family made the decision based on their situation and time available for the dog.

worth mentioning though that from what I've read the implants have the same effect on growth plates as actual neutering although there arent (yet) any long term studies on this effect in implanted dogs.

 

[galaxy]

The way I deal with this is to not bring it up with the vet!! If a vet mentions it I don't enter into a 'discussion' about it I simply say he will be 'done' once he is fully grown. Quite flatly. No tone for an opening opportunity for them to give me their opinion.

Exactly the same tone I have if a vet tries to talk to me about canine (or equine!) nutrition! Lol