Neutering puppies (or not)

[MotherOfChickens]

people can always change vets. my last two practices haven't been pro early neutering and partner at current practice doesnt want me to do either of mine-plus I got him thinking about diets and better kibbles (he hadnt heard of MWH or Eden etc). Its a proper rural mixed practise though-maybe they are just more realistic (and their charges are very good!).

 

[ponyparty]

thanks for posting-I remember when you asked about the implant initially and glad it worked for you. I do believe neutering a dog can reduce certain behaviours as I've seen it in a friend's lab (neutered at 6yo. he had been the poster boy for not routinely neutering the family dog - a really lovely boy. but he started getting reactive on walks for not reason they could think of-as she had two young girls in tow on walks they decided finally to get him done-the reactivity stopped). Of course he had the benefit of being done late, the family made the decision based on their situation and time available for the dog.

worth mentioning though that from what I've read the implants have the same effect on growth plates as actual neutering although there arent (yet) any long term studies on this effect in implanted dogs.

Interesting MoC - it would be logical that the effects on the growth plates would be the same as neutering (potentially worse, as the implant stops testosterone production in both the testes and the brain, whilst neutering stops production in the testes only, by their removal...). Either way, I held out as long as poss due to wanting him to be physically and mentally/emotionally mature... Would have left him for longer but he was just getting out of control, walking him was becoming stressful rather than enjoyable! My reason for having the implant was purely so that, if there were any negative effects, this would be reversible when it wore off. Once you whip dem balls off, there's no going back haha!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

My reason for having the implant was purely so that, if there were any negative effects, this would be reversible when it wore off. Once you whip dem balls off, there's no going back haha!

absolutely-I think its a useful thing to know about as it gives owners more options.

 

[twiggy2]

Is it generally considered that neutering improves temperament, or can it also have undesired effects?

Many dogs that are fear reactive with others benefit from having the testosterone boost that remaining entire gives. There are times when removing the testosterone boost is beneficial but most dogs are dog reactive through fear.

 

[Widgeon]

Many dogs that are fear reactive with others benefit from having the testosterone boost that remaining entire gives. There are times when removing the testosterone boost is beneficial but most dogs are dog reactive through fear.

Presumably if you get them well socialised early on then you're giving yourself the best possible chance at avoiding this problem? Or is it possible that a previously fairly well adjusted dog would become fear reactive following being neutered?

Edited to clarify, I mean being neutered at an older age, say 18 months

 

[CorvusCorax]

Socialisation is important but a lot of issues are genetic and will manifest themselves with maturity. It's not an excuse not to train but it is worth bearing in mind.
The genetics of desired traits are recognised widely, not so the undesired ones. That's why I wish people would put more thought into breeding.

 

[twiggy2]

Presumably if you get them well socialised early on then you're giving yourself the best possible chance at avoiding this problem? Or is it possible that a previously fairly well adjusted dog would become fear reactive following being neutered?

Edited to clarify, I mean being neutered at an older age, say 18 months

Of course early socialisation is best, but if you have a well balanced dog and something happens to scare it and make it reactive, historically everyone would say castrate it and it has been proven this often makes things worse.
The locking bitches pee that someone mentioned is nothing to do with testosterone, my last Un neutered bitch used to do it as well as cooking a leg and marking as high as possible, my current bitch (speyed far too early in rescue before 5 months) licks pee as well- then they both chatter their teeth.
I would castrate at 6-8 yrs providing there were no issues that meant it was needed sooner. The reasons;
Testicular cancer is ruled out.
Prostate cancer is dramatically reduced.
They are not so old that the aneasethia is high risk.
Testosterone has been there long enough that behaviours are well established so unlikely to change.
Physicality is well established.

For me reasons to do them earlier would be severe dog to dog aggression that is not fear based ( this is very rare)
Becoming a target for other dogs, it does seem that some dogs give off poor body language and others are less forgiving if the dog is entire.
Dog to human aggression that is not fear based.
Other physical conditions that can be improved with castration.
Dogs that wander in search of in season bitches, IME this stops once castrated especially if the dog is not repeatedly allowed to practice straying before surgery.
If an owner is struggling despite trying if there is any inkling that castration may help

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Interesting document - thanks. Made me wonder why very early neutering is still so commonly recommended? Perhaps that is a very naive question.

I made myself unpopular on a pet forum by suggesting that just possibly, routine neutering is a vet's bread and butter. I hope that future generations of vets will not trot out the 'When are you getting him neutered?' question. On balance, I don't see the point but I did it for my hump everything in sight dog, he was a serious pain.

I think it's a bit like nutrition: my vet stocks and recommends Hills. I don't rate the brand and I'm not sure if the vet has much clue about canine nutrition. Hopefully with handy websites being available, owners can make semi-educated choices and do their own research.

 

[Alec Swan]

Socialisation is important but a lot of issues are genetic and will manifest themselves with maturity. It's not an excuse not to train but it is worth bearing in mind.
The genetics of desired traits are recognised widely, not so the undesired ones. That's why I wish people would put more thought into breeding.

It's very rare today that simple common sense, borne of logical argument, is accepted.

Alec.

 

[ponyparty]

twiggy, it was me that mentioned licking bitches pee all I can go on is my own experience, which is that Frank used to lick bitch pee and chatter his teeth prior to having the implant; once the implant kicked in, this behaviour stopped; and after it wore off, he started doing it again.
Not a negative/undesirable behaviour as such, it doesn't bother me unduly - dogs will be dogs! But just an observation that the implant definitely did change the behaviour.

 

[Moobli]

Like MoC, my vet practice is a rural mixed practice and they never ask the "neutering" question of us. I assume they credit us with enough common sense and experience to make our own minds up. Not sure if that is the case throughout the practice or whether the pet owners are still encouraged to neuter early. I will ask next time I am in.

Like CC points out, genetics play such a large role in the adult temperament and traits of our dogs that it really is wise to thoroughly check the lines when searching for a puppy.

I really like this article on the subject ...

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/why-i-hate-socialisation/

 

[Widgeon]

It's very rare today that simple common sense, borne of logical argument, is accepted.

Alec.

Too true. This terrifies me on a daily basis!

 

[s4sugar]

Is it generally considered that neutering improves temperament, or can it also have undesired effects?

In one of my breeds which is prone to same sex aggression neutering can make the dog aggressive towards both genders.

 

[blackcob]

I really like this article on the subject ...

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/why-i-hate-socialisation/

Really interesting article. Is it just me that finds it a little bit depressing though? Only because it's so difficult to educate people in the context of a 10 minute vet appointment or a casual discussion in passing - you can see why people, even professionals, fall back on the old socialisation checklists/puppy parties etc. because it is otherwise so broad and complex a subject to tackle with a new owner who will probably end up offended about you questioning where, how and why they obtained their beloved puppy.

I've got both ends of the spectrum at home, two second hand dogs of the same breed. One is resilient as hell and can have anything thrown at her, one is an absolute pansy who can't be pushed out of his comfort zone. I won't ever know but it'd be really interesting to see how each of them came about!

 

[Hexx]

So why do rescue centres insist on speying/neutering the dogs that come in? they seem to neuter as soon as the dog has got a new home, regardless of age (unless they are little pups). I see on American animal rescue programmes that they neuter as early as 10-12 weeks - which does seem far too early to me.

Three of my dogs were rescues, two were done at an early age at 6 months when they got into rescue, Bell at at 6 months and Jasper at 5 months. Bertie went into rescue at 15 months so he was neutered. Neither of them have any behavioural problems, they were both socialised and trained, in fact, both were a pleasure to own - sadly Bella was pts at 14 with cancer - but Jasper is still going strong at 12. He is extremely affectionate and loves cuddles, a little overweight, but he does enjoy sleeping. The only thing I really notice about him is that he has a very small sheath! The one that was done at 15 months old is a terror (!) but that is probably down to his upbringing as a puppy as he had no socialisation with anything - human or canine - until I got him.

My sister's puppy was speyed after her first season.

 

[MissTyc]

So why do rescue centres insist on speying/neutering the dogs that come in? they seem to neuter as soon as the dog has got a new home, regardless of age (unless they are little pups). I see on American animal rescue programmes that they neuter as early as 10-12 weeks - which does seem far too early to me.

Because they're already dealing with the surplus dogs and the one thing they definitely don't to do is create more dogs to add to the rescue population!

 

[Thistle]

Because rescues have to think of the dog population as a whole rather than individual dogs.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

I really like this article on the subject ...

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/why-i-hate-socialisation/

I wonder how we managed to rear sane and normal dogs before we had puppy parties. It was an interesting argument and supported points which were established many years ago, even though the more modern and new wave 'behaviourists' and the occasional uni lecturer will attempt to debunk the fact that previously we didn't seem to have so many maladjusted dogs.

All so often we hear and read of those, often those who've taken on rescues, who claim that the dog which they have was mistreated as a pup. It's been long understood and accepted that the state of mind of the bitch carrying the pups, her level of contentment whilst they're in her womb and the environment in which she rears her young are all of vital importance in the forming of a well adjusted dog which is able to interact with mankind in an acceptable fashion. I've never really understood what use puppy classes are because they will probably only serve to reinforce how the pup sees the world, and for better or not.

Genetics also have a huge influence, and the greater aspect will come all so often, from the bitch. A nervous, sharp or 'difficult' bitch will be likely to replicate herself.

The Jesuits will tell us 'Give me a child to the age of 7 and that's how the child will grow to be an adult'. I firmly believe that what we see in a pup at, more or less 16 weeks, is what we will have as the dog matures. We can tweak and adjust perhaps and for better or worse, but by that age how the dog views the world and mankind, will be formed.

Is our world now a better place for us to to rear our dogs in? Do we over-think and complicate matters? Would we be better off if we returned to the days when we saw dogs for what they are? I suppose that we all answer those questions and in our own way.

Alec.

 

[Luci07]

All mine are Staffords or Stafford X's from rescue. Due to the vast number of these poor dogs being bred, no rescue would let you have an entire dog (or sign to say you will spay). Information is so conflicting though as to when to have your dog spayed. First one went through a season (on vets advice) boy was already done, 3rd one was 18 months and her owner paid for her to be spayed before I took her on, last one I had at a puppy and she was done at 7 months (again vets advice) as I needed her front paws to be X rayed.

 

[pippixox]

I do think some vets are good at spreading myths about the effects- like reduced aggression and less hyper behavior.
My last dog was a 2yo GSD who had not been socialized much until we got him at 2. He was also entire. We had him done at the same time as his giant hind dew claws got removed. It did not change his behavior at all- but he was reactive due to fear, so more or less testosterone wont do much to change that. But they are vets, not dog trainers/ behaviorists.

my MIL has a 5 month old german spitz who is a nutter! But I personally feel it is nothing to do with being entire- there is no humping for example- he is just a puppy and full of beans. She has had older dogs for ages and I think has forgotten how much energy puppies have! the vet is happy to do him ASAP. She has also recently got 2 sheltland sheltie bitch puppies (I know madness in my opinion- 3 puppies within 2 months! she also has 3 older small dogs) and the vet has said she doesn't even need to wait for a season.

I know someone with a GSD who she refuses to neuter for many of the reasons people have talked about. She has had GSDs all her life- most rescues- but when she lost one of her 3 and decided to rescue another the rescue she contacted would not let her as she had an entire male. Even though she had years of experience and had never and would never breed.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I wonder how we managed to rear sane and normal dogs before we had puppy parties. It was an interesting argument and supported points which were established many years ago, even though the more modern and new wave 'behaviourists' and the occasional uni lecturer will attempt to debunk the fact that previously we didn't seem to have so many maladjusted dogs.
.

excluding the rather brilliant dog trainers that we have on this forum who always have had and always will have well adjusted dogs, I believe that the general dog owning public have less well adjusted dogs now for a variety of reasons. There were more mongrels, you never saw a collie or a husky in a town, one parent was generally at home, dogs were allowed to roam more freely etc etc. Plus there are now many more dogs and many more people.

And besides, I don't believe everything was rosier in the 70s/80s (which is as far as I can go back). It depends on your personal experience.

 

[Kaylum]

Yes dog breeding has got rather out of control so has the price of puppies. I run #rehomehour on twitter and the main breeds we get advertised that are in rescues are just not suitable for families. These dogs do need neutering because idiots breed them for easy money. You might have seen the story on facebook about Wanda dumped in a garden in a shocking state having been used for breeding. Well there are thousands of other Wandas out there being used for breeding and so it goes on.

 

[Fellewell]

I wonder how we managed to rear sane and normal dogs before we had puppy parties. It was an interesting argument and supported points which were established many years ago, even though the more modern and new wave 'behaviourists' and the occasional uni lecturer will attempt to debunk the fact that previously we didn't seem to have so many maladjusted dogs.

All so often we hear and read of those, often those who've taken on rescues, who claim that the dog which they have was mistreated as a pup. It's been long understood and accepted that the state of mind of the bitch carrying the pups, her level of contentment whilst they're in her womb and the environment in which she rears her young are all of vital importance in the forming of a well adjusted dog which is able to interact with mankind in an acceptable fashion. I've never really understood what use puppy classes are because they will probably only serve to reinforce how the pup sees the world, and for better or not.

Genetics also have a huge influence, and the greater aspect will come all so often, from the bitch. A nervous, sharp or 'difficult' bitch will be likely to replicate herself.

The Jesuits will tell us 'Give me a child to the age of 7 and that's how the child will grow to be an adult'. I firmly believe that what we see in a pup at, more or less 16 weeks, is what we will have as the dog matures. We can tweak and adjust perhaps and for better or worse, but by that age how the dog views the world and mankind, will be formed.

Is our world now a better place for us to to rear our dogs in? Do we over-think and complicate matters? Would we be better off if we returned to the days when we saw dogs for what they are? I suppose that we all answer those questions and in our own way.

Alec.

Agree with what you say here Alec.

What puzzles me is the number of puppies needing surgery these days. While genetics obviously play a part in this I do wonder about the musculoskeletal and cardiovascular state of these dogs. We know that exercise is essential for physical and mental wellbeing especially in juvenile dogs. How is bone density improved and maintained when designer puppies are routinely caged to prevent them from messing up designer homes?

As for temperament I think it's time to start proper temperament testing for all breeding pairs. Not just enough to get them to stand for a judge but a proper test in various settings. Health and temperament tests should be given equal weighting IMO.

One of the happiest dogs I know belongs to a man who lives in a one-bed council flat with no garden. The dog goes everywhere with him and is never on a lead. He does the odd gardening job and the dog ground ties until he's finished. A rehoming centre wouldn't consider him but that is one happy dog who gets to be with his best mate all day.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I wonder how we managed to rear sane and normal dogs before we had puppy parties. It was an interesting argument and supported points which were established many years ago, even though the more modern and new wave 'behaviourists' and the occasional uni lecturer will attempt to debunk the fact that previously we didn't seem to have so many maladjusted dogs.

All so often we hear and read of those, often those who've taken on rescues, who claim that the dog which they have was mistreated as a pup. It's been long understood and accepted that the state of mind of the bitch carrying the pups, her level of contentment whilst they're in her womb and the environment in which she rears her young are all of vital importance in the forming of a well adjusted dog which is able to interact with mankind in an acceptable fashion. I've never really understood what use puppy classes are because they will probably only serve to reinforce how the pup sees the world, and for better or not.

Genetics also have a huge influence, and the greater aspect will come all so often, from the bitch. A nervous, sharp or 'difficult' bitch will be likely to replicate herself.

The Jesuits will tell us 'Give me a child to the age of 7 and that's how the child will grow to be an adult'. I firmly believe that what we see in a pup at, more or less 16 weeks, is what we will have as the dog matures. We can tweak and adjust perhaps and for better or worse, but by that age how the dog views the world and mankind, will be formed.

Is our world now a better place for us to to rear our dogs in? Do we over-think and complicate matters? Would we be better off if we returned to the days when we saw dogs for what they are? I suppose that we all answer those questions and in our own way.

Alec.

I dont think there was so many maladjusted dogs years ago for lots of reasons, years ago it was common for dogs to be let out in the morning when the owners went to work and they would have socialised with other dogs. It was also uncommon for mums to work so the dog was never left on its own for very long. The most common problems dogs have now is dog on dog aggression and separation anxiety which would have been rare years ago for the above reasons.

I dont believe in neutering puppies either for all the reasons other people have given, I was lucky when I adopted my male Dobermann at 18months, the rescue trusted me enough to have him neutered at 2 years old which I did. He is a big boy and is a real clown, I would hate to think what his problems would have been if he had been neutered at 6months.

 

[Alec Swan]

I dont think there was so many maladjusted dogs years ago for lots of reasons, years ago it was common for dogs to be let out in the morning when the owners went to work and they would have socialised with other dogs. It was also uncommon for mums to work so the dog was never left on its own for very long. The most common problems dogs have now is dog on dog aggression and separation anxiety which would have been rare years ago for the above reasons.

…….. .

Thinking about it, I think that you've just hit the nail on the head. I'm sure that just about every contributor to AAD is serious about dog ownership, including the attendant responsibilities, but so many buy pups without giving any real thought to the relationship which they'll have with the animal. Many may just as well have a budgie in a cage, for all the level of commitment.

As you also say, and rightly, so many today buy in a pup whilst working full time and wonder why they have the problems that they do. Perhaps the problems have always been there, and perhaps it's a case that with internet connection and people, strangers talking to each other, that we're becoming more aware. I'm really not sure, but I know for certain that it was only about 5 or 6 years ago that I heard the term 'Separation anxiety'!!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

What puzzles me is the number of puppies needing surgery these days. While genetics obviously play a part in this I do wonder about the musculoskeletal and cardiovascular state of these dogs. We know that exercise is essential for physical and mental wellbeing especially in juvenile dogs. How is bone density improved and maintained when designer puppies are routinely caged to prevent them from messing up designer homes?

As for temperament I think it's time to start proper temperament testing for all breeding pairs. Not just enough to get them to stand for a judge but a proper test in various settings. Health and temperament tests should be given equal weighting IMO.

One of the happiest dogs I know belongs to a man who lives in a one-bed council flat with no garden. The dog goes everywhere with him and is never on a lead. He does the odd gardening job and the dog ground ties until he's finished. A rehoming centre wouldn't consider him but that is one happy dog who gets to be with his best mate all day.

You raise points worthy of thought. I've no real answers but considering that health tests, no matter how rigorous seem to have little effect upon the wellbeing of what we produce, and the decline seems to continue, I suspect that diet is the only other path to consider and how we rear our pups.

Temperament Testing? Who would carry this out? With work dogs, mostly we don't really care what they look like, temperament is everything and self selecting. For the show bench, then the emphasis is on 'looks' and conformation, and despite the claims to the contrary, lip service is paid to temperament and often by those who don't really understand about temperament because their dogs are rarely tested under conditions of work.

Dogs, mostly, have been designed as our companions. When they're with us all but 24/7, then they tend to be the better adjusted dogs. When I lived alone, except for my sheep dogs, we were together at all times. They lived in the house with me, and I never had better work dogs. It sounds as though the guy who you mention has, as you say, a mate and it's probably a relationship which has grown because they're together.

Alec.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Temperament Testing? Who would carry this out? With work dogs, mostly we don't really care what they look like, temperament is everything and self selecting. For the show bench, then the emphasis is on 'looks' and conformation, and despite the claims to the contrary, lip service is paid to temperament and often by those who don't really understand about temperament because their dogs are rarely tested under conditions of work.

character tests are carried out in dogs in Scandinavia for dogs used in breeding (possibly in Europe as well, I don't know). Interestingly, they are also not for routine neutering.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As above, common in Europe.

There are plenty of judges and breed surveyors qualified to carry out the tests.
The new ZAP test is being introduced for the German Shepherd as a prerequisite to breeding along with the standard health tests. It used to be IPO1 (which cannot be attained without the BH traffic safe companion dog test, which is a little like the KCGC Gold on steroids) but this will act as an alternative apparently. It's pretty exhaustive.

 

[Moobli]

Inbreeding and closed gene pools could well be one of the biggest causes of health issues in modern pedigree breeds. The main problem being that inbreeding does not provide the offspring of a mated pair with a substantial genetic variation.

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/the-problem-with-pedigree-dogs/

 

[Moobli]

Regarding the various behaviour issues seen in modern day dogs, I agree with earlier posters who have pointed out that our lifestyles have altered beyond all recognition in many cases and there are now far more pet dogs in homes where the household are out all day at work/school whereas traditionally the mother of the family tended house and so the dog had company all day, latch key dogs were also common (dogs allowed to roam wherever they wished during the day, only coming home again at teatime).

There are less working roles for dogs that were once traditionally only kept for work and they have become popular as pets when really all their inherent instincts are drives for work are still intact. Some working breeds or individuals will adapt, whereas others won't - and this manifests itself in behaviour issues which the average owner struggles to cope with.

The breeding of dogs appears to be at an all time high - often without due thought and consideration given to health, temperament, and purpose of the parents and whether there are enough suitable homes for the offspring.

The UK has become a busier, noisier and more demanding place for humans and their dogs are just expected to fit in and tow the line - often with negative consequences for the poor dogs.

On the positive side, we have come a long way in learning about how dogs think and learn and so are, in general, better equipped to teach them in a more understanding and constructive manner than the old jerk and drag methods of Barbara Woodhouse et al. Dogs have the ability to experience positive emotions, like love and attachment, which means that they have a level of sentience comparable to that of a human child.

There has also been positive progression for the modern dog in things like diet, veterinary care and medicine etc so it isn't all doom and gloom!