New BE Championship rules esp GR

TableDancer

TableDancer

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Just looked at the link from the Lorry Park newsletter - someone cleverer than me can probably post it here...

Quite a few little changes, but the biggest one as I see it is that if you have ridden at INTERMEDIATE or above in the current of preceding TEN seasons, or EVER at 4*, you aren't eligible. Wow, that's me out for the foreseeable then :o TBF I think I was still ineligible under the old Advanced rule for another year or two but as I was running Intermediate in 2009 I think I can forget all about any trips to Badminton any time soon :p As I seem stuck with babies for the moment I was wondering whether to give it a go - a friend who rode successfully at 4* before she had children went and had fun and was placed on a young horse. Guess what they are ttrying to say is that it ain't really for the likes of her, or me :rolleyes: Thoughts, anyone?
 
Whilst I completely understand where you are coming from, I can see the logic behind this ruling - the Grassroots Championship is designed for the true grassroots rider, those who aspire to nothing more than BE90/100, those who have ridden as significantly higher levels should be either aiming for say the Novice championships or bathing in their former glory :) Therby giving those who are more likely to be less competent a better chance of getting to Badminton.

Also, without wishing to generalise or cause any offence, people who these days are bringing on young horses rather than riding at the highest levels are often doing this to sell the horses on, qualification would possibly be done to increase value of the horse rather than for the challenge of getting there which also was not what the series was designed for.
 
Aw boo sucks. My abortive attempts at Intermediate a couple of years ago have become rather expensive. First off they made me a Gp 6 BD rider which means I can't qualify at Prelim level for anything and having to compete at Open level up to Elementary (and anyone bored enough can peruse my BE record and laugh at the idea that I might have any advantage in the dressage arena!), now I can't aspire to GR :mad:.

I have found the problem that my young horses move up too quickly to qualify (you could, if the timing was wrong, have to hold a horse back from Novice for 6 months or so if it qualified) but if anyone thinks that I'm not a GR rider and too good to be there I'll once more point them to my BE record. I can guarantee you that I'm rubbish!

Plus for those of us in-betweenies what can we aspire too? The only thing I can think of is the Scottish Champs and that's a bit of a trek to get qualified for/compete at. The chances of me getting to the Nov or Int Champs at Gatcombe are so small that they don't exist. NRFs really are a pro's game!
 
Umm, tbh i'm with Optimist... GR was designed for riders who think Novice is huge and Intermediate is COLOSSAL and Advanced is not for mere mortals, let alone ever doing 3* and 4*, wasn't it?
i mean, i've done naff all of a decent level for years due to concentrating on baby horses etc but because i've done more in the past, i wouldn't have done GR, even if i had qualified somehow. i just wouldn't feel right doing it, i'd feel like a horrible pot-hunter even on the greenest wobbliest wally horse. and so should you, imho, TD, because i've seen you ride, and you're a lot better than me! ;) ;) ;)
 
quick q about grassroots that i couldn't see covered in the rules. can you qualify for both BE90 and BE100 regionals? I would assume not, but I just couldn't see it in the rules.
 
What utter rubbish. Well done BE another great rule!!

So explain why this horse http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=67258 is entered in the Scottish BE90 Champs and is allowed to run in it against baby horses and 'true grass roots' riders despite the fact that the same horse and rider combo have been clear round Blair twice???

I have 2 horses, my baby horse is qualified for BE90RF and I would love to take him to badminton. My older horse, has twice been entered for Intermediate but not run (once the event cancelled once I was ill and W/D) So I now have to chose between my aspirations for my young horse to get to grass roots champs or my aspiration to once do an intermediate? I'm not a pro, just a happy hacker with dreams. And 10 years ???? What the hell? If I run at Intermediate this year I'll be over 50 years old before I can do grass roots.

What RUBBISH
 
I'm with you TD on behalf of my horse (not that he's anywhere near good enough) but since I only want Rosie to ride him we're stuffed. I guess it's fair though as it's supposed to be a competition for grassroots riders. I daresay they'd say the young horses should be doing BYEH but that's just not eventing in Rosie's and my opinion :(.

Never mind - we'll just have to get the babies qualified for the novice champs at Gatcombe - lol :)
 
Gamebird said:
The chances of me getting to the Nov or Int Champs at Gatcombe are so small that they don't exist. NRFs really are a pro's game!
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This is so true! My friends daughter who is a very, very good rider and her exceedingly nice young horse who did fantastically well at Novice found her NRFs were full of Andrew Nicholson, Oli T etc etc. So even though they are a way, way above average combination they came nowhere near at RFs
 
star said:
quick q about grassroots that i couldn't see covered in the rules. can you qualify for both BE90 and BE100 regionals? I would assume not, but I just couldn't see it in the rules.
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Yes sure you can star.
Though if you were then to qualify for both finals obviously you would have to pick
 
I know I have banged on about this before but BE really has 3 tiers of riders. The 'grass roots' ie BE90 and BE100 - for whom they offer a lot of training and support and Championships.

The Pro riders who get lottery funding, training and make up teams and are the ones that win the Nov, Int and Open Champs.

And then the middle tier, Nov/Int riders, non professional, slightly better than average but no where near the pros. For them there is very little training and very little to aspire to. The step from Nov to Int is massive and these riders get no help at all yet we pay more in reg fees than grass roots riders as our horses have points.
 
If they really want to look at GR rules I think they should bring back the rule about so many wins and you are out of 90/100 ordinary classes. It was 3 but say make it 5. We all know how hard it is for us mere mortals to win even one section :rolleyes: but you see some combinations literally winning again and again. Which is lovely for them but if they don't want to move up why not let them do open sections against other suitably gifted and talented combinations :confused:
 
I am eligible for GR but my aspirations lie higher than novice and I dream of doing a 2* if I can get the horse power. It does drive me nuts how little there are for inbetweeners and I bet there are more out there than BE recognises. I think the previous rules were fair and it will not stop the professional producers of young horses.

I think its dreadfully unfair that I could attempt one intermediate very badly and then for 10 years be wiped out from trying to qualify for GR when actually the horse might just not be good enough and just scrape round one intermediate. The Novice Champs at Gatcombe are a complete pro fest so even if you do qualify on a good horse you sort of accept that you will are there for the experience. I still think all the 2* - 4* in this country should have a prize for the highest placed amateur.

BE has done a huge amount for U18s and Grassroots in recent years but inbetweeners have been forgotten about.
 
TableDancer said:
Just looked at the link from the Lorry Park newsletter - someone cleverer than me can probably post it here...

Quite a few little changes, but the biggest one as I see it is that if you have ridden at INTERMEDIATE or above in the current of preceding TEN seasons, or EVER at 4*, you aren't eligible. Wow, that's me out for the foreseeable then :o TBF I think I was still ineligible under the old Advanced rule for another year or two but as I was running Intermediate in 2009 I think I can forget all about any trips to Badminton any time soon :p As I seem stuck with babies for the moment I was wondering whether to give it a go - a friend who rode successfully at 4* before she had children went and had fun and was placed on a young horse. Guess what they are ttrying to say is that it ain't really for the likes of her, or me :rolleyes: Thoughts, anyone?
Click to expand...

Well. I think that the GR ought to be somewhat self-selecting as it should depend on the ambition and aspirations of the rider. Those who currently compete at I and above are presumably not interested in GR and that's fine, they're not eligible. In that context, there is a difficult balance balance to be struck when determining the eligibility of those who have in the past competed at I and above but are not now at that level. I can well see that there may be a lot of people who've competed to I or above but for whatever reason don't now. Excluding them for ten years (or permanently) seems stringent.

"Ridden at I"'s a bit ambiguous; do you just have to have started, or actually completed? If the former, then I'm an absolutely more ridiculous example than Gamebird. On the basis of what Td's told us about the rule change, I only just became eligible for GR last year! (And I never made it onto the XC in my one attempt at I!!)
 
Hmmmm. Have to admit to being a bit 'on the fence' with this one.

I can absolutely see why BE has brought this in, and that many true GR riders will be saying 'about blinkin' time'. I can also see that those at Novice and Intermediate, possibly with another horse at a lower level (as I have) could think it's incredibly unfair.

I guess I could also be classed as one of the 'inbetweeners' - I have a horse just getting established at Novice but who has 2 RF qualifications. What do I do - keep entering Novices and run the risk of de-qualifying ourselves if we get a point (but what do I then aim for - as others have said, there's little chance of us making the Novice Champs), or do I hold him back and go for the qualification for the GR Champs?

It's a toughie - but for me, it's all about producing my horses to get as far as I can and to the best of my ability (regardless of who that means I'm competing against - it's the little fish / big pond scenario), so I'll push on at Novice and see how it goes. My goal will (hopefully) be Intermediate/1* for next year - and if we make it, then I'll have scuppered the chances of my lower level horse of getting to the GR Champs too.....
 
smurf said:
I know I have banged on about this before but BE really has 3 tiers of riders. The 'grass roots' ie BE90 and BE100 - for whom they offer a lot of training and support and Championships.

The Pro riders who get lottery funding, training and make up teams and are the ones that win the Nov, Int and Open Champs.

And then the middle tier, Nov/Int riders, non professional, slightly better than average but no where near the pros. For them there is very little training and very little to aspire to. The step from Nov to Int is massive and these riders get no help at all yet we pay more in reg fees than grass roots riders as our horses have points.
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I have been working on a scheme on/ off for a few months now to try and create an aim for the middle man in BE

If you can remember this thread it covers the idea (but i have adapted it slightly)
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=431335&highlight=team

I've done some surveys at events this season (need to do some more but riding has taken over recently) and spoke to a few people in the know who have been very helpful (Paul from BE actually offered to read through but i never got round to sending him anything so need to do that)

plus off an off chance a company has actually expressed an interest in supporting/ sponsoring

trying to create a full proposal that i can send to BE so will be asking a few of you more questions (feel sorry for the ones heading to ehoa camp as your going to get asked lots :p ) as it seems there really is a need now
 
smurf said:
I know I have banged on about this before but BE really has 3 tiers of riders. The 'grass roots' ie BE90 and BE100 - for whom they offer a lot of training and support and Championships.

The Pro riders who get lottery funding, training and make up teams and are the ones that win the Nov, Int and Open Champs.

And then the middle tier, Nov/Int riders, non professional, slightly better than average but no where near the pros. For them there is very little training and very little to aspire to. The step from Nov to Int is massive and these riders get no help at all yet we pay more in reg fees than grass roots riders as our horses have points.
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This exactly.....

I am currently competing at Novice with my horse and hope to do an Intermediate or two with him before he hangs up is shoes for an easier life. In the meantime I am going to get a youngster to bring on and thought it would be nice to try and qualify for the Grassroots. It now looks like if I do an Intermediate it will rule me out :( How can that be fair?

I am a complete amateur who aspires to more than BE100 and puts all my time and money in to trying to improve myself and my horse. There is nothing for me to aim for apart for then NRF, which I did qualify for this year but decided not to do as would have been a complete waste of time (not the right attitude I know but sadly true). I don't work with horses & never have. I don't ride for anyone else and compete one horse. Come on BE, do something for us inbetweeners for a change!
 
Hmmm its a tricky one - I certainly admit to a slight feeling of disappointment that its no longer on my list of things I can aim at with my current young horse but tbh its enough of a job to concentrate on just getting round etc;) Although I was lucky enough to get my 'moneys worth' of Intermediate experience on one super horse. I only have 8 more years to go til I am re-eligible!

There is no way BE are going to please ALL of the people ALL of the time but I do think that it should at least read " riders that have COMPLETED
at Intermediate level. As the likes of GB & others are definitely a bit hard done by. However, it is perhaps telling that the likes of GB & ourselves find that we tend to upgrade a level a bit too quick to fully utilize the GR Champs. It really isnt aimed at people who are rising through the levels.

I slightly disagree that there is nothing for the 'inbetweeners' to aim at (my OH & myself are certainly in that category) once you have a horse that is capable at Novice level you have various CIC* & then CCI* to aim at.
 
Is this a new rule? is in in force now? My sister has qualified her horse for a 90RF she last did Intermediate in 2006, can she do the RF this year?
 
DarkHorseB said:
If they really want to look at GR rules I think they should bring back the rule about so many wins and you are out of 90/100 ordinary classes. It was 3 but say make it 5. We all know how hard it is for us mere mortals to win even one section :rolleyes: but you see some combinations literally winning again and again. Which is lovely for them but if they don't want to move up why not let them do open sections against other suitably gifted and talented combinations :confused:
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I totally agree with this. My horse does not have the best dressage, but we're improving, he's a good little jumper and I just find it demoralising to be knocked out of the top 4 by people who are constantly winning at that level. Coming 5th has come almost as painful as 11th!! I have no problem with them not wanting to move up to Novice but as qualifications do not move down ..... grrrr.... I know sour grapes and green eyes! Maybe the rule could state once you've won 3 BE100's you have to go into the Open section for the remainder of the season, then the following season, providing you've not gone and got points at Novice you can go back to BE100 until you win another 3 sections at which point you must compete in the open again.

Ohhh, back to the point of the post. This new rule.... I've had a 4th this year so I have one shot at Grassroots, if we fail, it's highly likely..... I'll have to wait 4 more years to have another go. 6 years ago I was lucky to have a horse that I got to Intermediate, we never got less than 12sj penalties, dressage was poor, but he loved his XC, we never came anywhere near being placed (19th was our best placing). Now, and pretty much since then, I've not competed at higher than BE100. Grassroots has been my aim, I've had my horse from scratch and for me this rule change just makes me feel just a bit angry and sad - can't really explain it.
 
So does this rule come into effect from now? I have competed at Intermediate level this season, and I also have a horse that has qualified for a BE100 regional final, does this rule me out for attempting to qualify for Badminton GR 2012, or does it come into effect for those who may now be qualifying for 2012 regionals (2013 Badminton GR)?

I competely agree with GB on this one!
 
My understanding is that this comes into force for 2012 regional finals for a place in 2013 GR champs - no way could they change it now as all qualifications have been notified already.
 
Jane_Lou said:
My understanding is that this comes into force for 2012 regional finals for a place in 2013 GR champs - no way could they change it now as all qualifications have been notified already.
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That's what I thought as I already have my regional final qualification on my horse's record. So full steam ahead as it is my last shot at qualifying (certainly for another 10 seasons! :rolleyes:)
 
DarkHorseB said:
If they really want to look at GR rules I think they should bring back the rule about so many wins and you are out of 90/100 ordinary classes. It was 3 but say make it 5. We all know how hard it is for us mere mortals to win even one section :rolleyes: but you see some combinations literally winning again and again. Which is lovely for them but if they don't want to move up why not let them do open sections against other suitably gifted and talented combinations :confused:
Click to expand...

^^ this. i have a friend who has won a bagload of PN sections. she doesn't want to move up to Nov (fair enough- totally understand) but do think that people should be limited to Opens- as long as events are made to put on enough Open sections to accomodate. At BS and BD there is a ruling about this- so why not BE?

re. the OP- i think its a bit of a wooley rule really. i think that there needs to be some sort of discriminator- i mean there is a difference between scraping round one I and competing regularly at this level. maybe it could be something about 'can not have gained points at I?' or something like that.... ?
 
I'm really unsure where I stand on this one. Firstly, I don't think Novice Champs is only for the pros - look at ColouredFan - she is a true amateur rider, produced her horse herself, qualified for the British Champs at Novice. Frankie is exceptionally well produced on the flat (I have had the pleasure of riding him), and TBH I kind of think that the rest of us just need to up our game a bit. Gloucestershire is home to more pros than we know what to do with, and CF qualified for the British Champs at Longleat - hardly the soft option!!

On the other hand, I do feel like the amateurs at Novice/Int are the forgotten riders really. BE don't really put on anything for us at all. I say 'us' but frankly I'm as likely to fly to the moon as do Novice again any time soon, but because Chatter1 got points on my horse last year, I can't do GR, I have to contest open classes - and believe me, I'm not a great rider, so I wouldn't suddenly be winning BE90/100 classes if I were in the 'normal' sections. I think I have well and truly established that I am best at unaff this year :rolleyes:

I do think the loss of the 'win 3 90/100 and you have to go open' rule is shameful - as I say, I'm contesting opens this year and haven't struggled to find places to run at all, so it's not that events don't put them on. I even got waitlisted for one after the event begged for entries!
 
i agree with the above post, i think its a grey area and to discount everyone who has had a stab at intermediate and as you say those competing regularly for years. I think the points idea is a good one!
 
Regarding qualifying for Gatcombe Novice Champs - I believe that is possible as you can pick your RF and the top 25% go but because I have some time on my hands and I am a little bit geeky and interested in this I have compiled the following:


Year No of Entries No of Pros in top 15 Best Amateur finish
2007 85 15 16
2008 94 15 18
2009 103 14 14
2010 72 15 20

I defined someone as an amateur if when you scrolled through their record they were not consistently producing horses and if I googled their name with the words event rider nothing particularly came up.

It appears to be a pretty closed shop in the top 15 to amateurs but one thing that did interest me was the undoubted quality of the horses who had been placed in the top 15. The majority are all now at being highly placed at 3* including many of last years horses.
 
as a true grassroots rider (1st season eventing ever) the fact I wont be competing at the regionals against people who have done a lot higher is reassuring, but looking to the future I hope this horse will go Novice at least and what's not to say he might one day be good enough for an Intermediate. By the time he is however he'll be at the end of his career (he's 12 now and by the time I'm good enough to ride him round that level we'll be talking several yrs time). I would love to have a shot at Intermediate but if it meant wouldn't be able to go back and do grass roots for 10yrs with any other horse I dont think I'd bother. I dont think having a bash at an Intermediate should put you out of grass roots - perhaps anyone who has had a double clear at Intermediate or a top 10 finish or something like that would be fairer?

And I totally agree with those suggesting win 3 or 5 or however many BE90/100 and then have to move to the Open section for the rest of the season. I see the same combinations at the top time after time and as qualifications dont pass down it does restrict others qualifying. Same thing does happen BD though which is why they've now changed it to getting so many points at each level so you can still qualify from a consistent high scoring record but not always winning. I guess with BE allowing the top 10% through each time it's already more than just the winner qualifying though. Dont know the ideal solution. I guess if you're good enough to be at the Regionals you'll get there somehow. I was lucky and qualified at our 2nd ever BE event - not come quite so close since though!
 
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