New BE Championship rules esp GR

I'm another one who is not sure. I do believe the GR champs should purely be for true GR amateurs and not pros or semi pros using it to showcase horses in order to sell on. And I do agree with riders not having ridden at Advanced any time in recent history but the Intermediate rule is questionable. For those that have had a crack and not been successful it does seem a bit harsh - perhaps the rule could be amended to completed 3 or more I's?

Is there room for a GR Novice? No rider to have ridden advanced in the last 10 years....Would take a lot of pros out of the equation but still be a fairly tough competition.

Thoughts?
 
I like the idea of a GR Novice - maybe it could be with neither horse nor rider to have gained points at Int. I suppose you'd also have to include CCI/CIC too if you really only want Am riders.

It's a bit perplexing though - qualifications for moving up the levels last for 2 years but for moving down they last for 10 :confused:.
 
Rosiefan said:
It's a bit perplexing though - qualifications for moving up the levels last for 2 years but for moving down they last for 10 :confused:.
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That makes sense though - for moving up they want you to be safe and have relevant recent experience - eventing now is very different from 10 years ago. For moving down, well, you may be rusty, but if you were good enough to jump round 1.20 once, you clearly ride at a higher level than someone who has only ever done 90cm, even if you personally don't feel like you do!

It's such a tricky one, and I think it's those of us in the middle who have ambitions at intermediate but aren't competitive against pros at the champs who feel this rule is a bit 'difficult'. It's the same as the horses with points running open - I rode my horse round a whole heap of Novice classes but never quite jumped DC or was placed, so he had no points with me. Someone else got a handful of points on him, I took the ride back, I now have to contest opens - I still probably wouldn't get placed Novice on him!

I think 10 years is too long, but intermediate is about right personally. Maybe make it not to have ridden at intermediate in the last 3 years? That gives people who had a 'one horse wonder' and rode at intermediate the chance to produce a new youngster and compete at GR, without keeping them out of it forever.

Also, BE are barking mad not passing qualifications down the line. It is frankly unfair - you could have a top 10% of downgraded horses or horses ridden by people ineligible for the GR champs, and so no-one qualifies for the RF - what is the point in that? What does it achieve? Smacks to me of BE not wanting to create the admin for themselves - when in fact they should be serving the membership. If a qualifying spot is taken by someone ineligible, the qualification really should pass down the line. You've excluded those people for a reason, presumably because you think they are too good and true GR people should not have to compete against them at the champs, so the same should hold true at the qualifying level.
 
SpottedCat said:
Also, BE are barking mad not passing qualifications down the line. It is frankly unfair - you could have a top 10% of downgraded horses or horses ridden by people ineligible for the GR champs, and so no-one qualifies for the RF - what is the point in that? What does it achieve? Smacks to me of BE not wanting to create the admin for themselves - when in fact they should be serving the membership. If a qualifying spot is taken by someone ineligible, the qualification really should pass down the line. You've excluded those people for a reason, presumably because you think they are too good and true GR people should not have to compete against them at the champs, so the same should hold true at the qualifying level.
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Absolutely agree - it's completely ludicrous as it stands
 
Rosiefan said:
I like the idea of a GR Novice - maybe it could be with neither horse nor rider to have gained points at Int. I suppose you'd also have to include CCI/CIC too if you really only want Am riders.

It's a bit perplexing though - qualifications for moving up the levels last for 2 years but for moving down they last for 10 :confused:.
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This is such a tricky balance. One of the things we go on about being so fantastic about our sport is how accessible it is to the "elite" horses and riders- we love to say we competed against/did better than Ruth Edge/William FP/Zara Phillips (albeit on their gangly 4/5yo on first outing! :p ) etc.

So to split classes by pro/am or GR status seems to contradict that mentality? :confused: And we already have normal N sections and ON sections to separate horses with points.

I'm really torn on how I feel about the latest rule update. Part of me agrees that the GR champs should be for horses/riders who have no desire/ability to reach a higher level. However, I agree with those on here who are saying that as a 1/2 horse owner-rider why can't they enjoy it with their younger horse while still enjoying a higher level with a more established one...

I agree with those who think the blanket "Competed at Int" should potentially be revised as "completed X times at Int" as there is indeed quite a difference between having a try and realising that it's a step too far for rider/horse and happily competing regularly at that level.

Personally (and this is very hypothetical! :p ), if I were to be in the position of having a horse good enough to do Int (and I felt I could survive! ;) ), I wouldn't let the rule blocking me from the GR champs stop me from aiming to ride at that level. I would feel much more of an achievement aiming at completing an Int than potentially aiming at the GR finals.

However... up to the point of "disqualifying" myself from competing at the GR finals, it would of course be something I'd want to aim for! ;)

I think Joss has a good point that those at Nov level have CIC/CCI* competitions to aim for, I'd have loved to do a 3DE at Intro/PN level if they were available, but I guess that is one of the incentives to get to Nov level. :)
 
I totally agree. We are going for the badminton grassroots rf and totally deserve to be there. If they were to let experienced event riders on young horses then I personally wouldn't even bother entering the rf even though we earnt our place.
 
FigJam said:
I think Joss has a good point that those at Nov level have CIC/CCI* competitions to aim for, I'd have loved to do a 3DE at Intro/PN level if they were available, but I guess that is one of the incentives to get to Nov level. :)
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They have them at PN - just not anywhere near you!! Aldon and Gt Witchingham both run one, and it is long format.
 
SpottedCat said:
They have them at PN - just not anywhere near you!! Aldon and Gt Witchingham both run one, and it is long format.
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Yes, but they are unaff centres doing them, not BE organised and therefore (as you say), pot luck if you're nearby or not! Burgie used to, but lack of entries last year put paid to that. I bet if Scone or Hopetoun or one of the central ones were to do it they would have interest though as easier to access from North and South of Scotland/North England.

Anyone raised the GR qualification rules with ERA?
 
FigJam said:
Yes, but they are unaff centres doing them, not BE organised and therefore (as you say), pot luck if you're nearby or not! Burgie used to, but lack of entries last year put paid to that. I bet if Scone or Hopetoun or one of the central ones were to do it they would have interest though as easier to access from North and South of Scotland/North England.

Anyone raised the GR qualification rules with ERA?
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No, Aldon and Gt Witchingham are both BE events! You have to qualify and everything ;)

You're right, the GR stuff should be raised with ERA I think. Esp the not passing qualifications down the line.
 
A tricky one and some good suggestions, BE must find it hard to strike the right balance to try and please everyone

Perhaps one way would be to run something along the lines of the old Subaru owner/rider champs that ran at Novice & Int with the champs being at Weston Park, iirc you could only own a max of 2 horses to qualify which discount the true professionals ;)

Just a thought :)
 
SpottedCat said:
No, Aldon and Gt Witchingham are both BE events! You have to qualify and everything ;)

You're right, the GR stuff should be raised with ERA I think. Esp the not passing qualifications down the line.
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Ah, I see! Maybe I should raise the PN 3DE idea with ERA/BE to try encourage them to do one North of the border?!

Yes, completely agree about qualifications passing down the line, surely it couldn't be that hard for them to work out?! :rolleyes:
 
Wow, what a debate I've started :o

Just to be clear, I wasn't arguing against the rule change just noting it and what it meant for me personally. Do I think I should be eligible for the GR Champs? Probably not. It's just that because I was about to become eligible, and I know other people as experienced/competent as me (or more so) who have competed there, I was eyeing it up... ;)

However, I think some of the opinions and perspectives raised by others on this thread are far more interesting than mine. If Gamebird never actually completed an Intermediate, surely she shouldn't be ruled out?? Perhaps a fairer/better wording would be either "completed" or "won points at"? Also the jump from Advanced/5 years to Intermediate/10 years ruling you out is quite extreme, perhaps make it Advanced/10 years OR Intermediate/5 years - after all, there's a fair old difference between riding at Intermediate and Advanced ;)

It does seem to me this would have been a prime case for a bit of good old consultation before bringing in the new rules: do we know whether ERA UK was consulted, Kerry, and if so, whether Francis canvassed opinions?
 
FigJam said:
Ah, I see! Maybe I should raise the PN 3DE idea with ERA/BE to try encourage them to do one North of the border?!

Yes, completely agree about qualifications passing down the line, surely it couldn't be that hard for them to work out?! :rolleyes:
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A few years back(4/5) they tried a series of 3D PN i seem to remember and they stopped it because they were not popular due to the cost so I am not sure they will revisit that one any day soon.
 
This is all hypothetical for me at the moment, as I'm not competing. But I have a horse which, realistically, is unlikely ever to go above Novice. That's ok, I like the horse and intend to keep him and just do what he's capable of. I'd love to take him to badminton to do the GR champs if poss, but that will preclude me from having a bash at Int on another horse :(.

Hopefully by the time that happens BE will have amended the rule!
 
popsdosh said:
A few years back(4/5) they tried a series of 3D PN i seem to remember and they stopped it because they were not popular due to the cost so I am not sure they will revisit that one any day soon.
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Agreed. Everyone made a huge fuss about wanting them, then when they realised the cost/time off work etc involved they went off the idea, and entries were dreadful. Burgie and Chepstow were two I remember who tried them then stopped running them, there were probably others, Aldon and GW have persisted - I think the Aldon date works well as it's a good end of season blast :) Thing is, Long Format is horribly expensive to put on, and temp stables are expensive too, fact, it's not a question of events or BE profiteering. So while PN 3 Days are an attractive idea, in reality the sums don't add up for competitors and therefore for organisers :(
 
icestationzebra said:
Is there room for a GR Novice? No rider to have ridden advanced in the last 10 years....Would take a lot of pros out of the equation but still be a fairly tough competition.

Thoughts?
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Definitely! This would be a fab idea and they could eg. run it round the CCI* at Osberton along with the 6yo champs. I would LOVE to do something like that :cool:.

The other point that's popped up here is a very valid one - if even fewer people are eligible for RFs then it is going to get very difficult to qualify for them as more and more ineligible people take up the top places. In a couple of sections chosen at random from Buckminster and Gt. Witchingham either none or only one of the people occupying the qualifying spots was eligible for a RF whilst those lower down (but still in the top ten) were. Surely if no-one in the top 4 or 5 is eligible then the RF qualification should pass down at least as far as 8th?
 
TableDancer said:
Agreed. Everyone made a huge fuss about wanting them, then when they realised the cost/time off work etc involved they went off the idea, and entries were dreadful. Burgie and Chepstow were two I remember who tried them then stopped running them, there were probably others, Aldon and GW have persisted - I think the Aldon date works well as it's a good end of season blast :) Thing is, Long Format is horribly expensive to put on, and temp stables are expensive too, fact, it's not a question of events or BE profiteering. So while PN 3 Days are an attractive idea, in reality the sums don't add up for competitors and therefore for organisers :(
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So why are the unaff ones so popular?! Shame it's been tried before and didn't work (although as I said, Burgie may have struggled due to distance for people travelling rather than lack of interest?), like someone has said- never going to please all of the people all of the time! :rolleyes:
 
A Grass Roots Championship should be exactly that, for Grass Roots riders. They have to draw the line somewhere, and IMHO it's at about Intermediate level that you can't be labelled as a GR rider anymore. BE are in a difficult situation, and they will never please everyone.

I can see how it's maybe a bit harsh to have it as ever competed at Int, rather than something more like gained points at Int. Making you ineligible for 10 years does seem quite a long time also.

But as I said, they have to draw the line somewhere and make it fair on true GR riders.
 
FigJam said:
So why are the unaff ones so popular?! Shame it's been tried before and didn't work (although as I said, Burgie may have struggled due to distance for people travelling rather than lack of interest?), like someone has said- never going to please all of the people all of the time! :rolleyes:
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Figjam - the 3 day PN for our area (yours too!) was awarded to Strathallan. They spent a small fortune extending the XC, sorting out roads and tracks and steeplechase, on site stabling etc and then when entries opened they had a very small handful of entries, something like 8 !!!! And it could not run and Anna lost a small fortune.

It was a real shame, but having just spent £541 on my Blair entry:eek: and taken a week off and OH also needing a week off to dog sit I can see why some people don't want to pay that much for a PN.
 
smurf said:
Figjam - the 3 day PN for our area (yours too!) was awarded to Strathallan. They spent a small fortune extending the XC, sorting out roads and tracks and steeplechase, on site stabling etc and then when entries opened they had a very small handful of entries, something like 8 !!!! And it could not run and Anna lost a small fortune.

It was a real shame, but having just spent £541 on my Blair entry:eek: and taken a week off and OH also needing a week off to dog sit I can see why some people don't want to pay that much for a PN.
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That is a shame. :( I guess I thought there would be a lot of folk who would think of PN as being their upper-end and would be happy to spend a little more on a "big event" type competition, but obviously not! (I'm hoping it was less than Blair costs though as if it wasn't I can see why not popular...! ;) )
 
Saratoga said:
But as I said, they have to draw the line somewhere and make it fair on true GR riders.
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Playing devils advocate/outsider (doesn't apply to us) what exactly IS a "true GR rider"?
Last year at the finals there was lots of young people (under20) competing against older people say over 30s - a lot of whom have had family/job and come back to the sport as a hobby.
In my mind the true GR rider is older, maybe come back to the sport or very happy staying at lower levels as only doing it for the fun.
The younger riders have plenty else to do (pony club etc.), so IMO the biggest thing that BE should have brought in was an age limit - eg. only over 25s (which is when you can no longer do pony club) can qualify - and then add more limiting factors?
I think that BE have the levels of GR right at 90 and 100 as technically a 80s is a training course :)
 
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hollibobs said:
I am a complete amateur who aspires to more than BE100 and puts all my time and money in to trying to improve myself and my horse.
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That, I think, is the issue. I would say that people aspiring beyond BE100 are getting beyond the grass roots of the sport. Grass roots means exactly start - roots. i.e. bottom levels. I support Kerilli's view, that people who have bigger ambitions should really be leaving the GR to those people for whom that in and of itself, is the end goal. The fact that there is a big void in the middle echelons isn't the GR riders' fault, and I do think something needs to be done to give the good amateur (competing at Novice/Int) something realistic to aim for.
 
FigJam - the costs for aldon are roughly £150 entry fee with £15 start fee. Stabling for 3 or more nights is £115 with no obligation to be on site.
 
FigJam said:
So why are the unaff ones so popular?! Shame it's been tried before and didn't work (although as I said, Burgie may have struggled due to distance for people travelling rather than lack of interest?), like someone has said- never going to please all of the people all of the time! :rolleyes:
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If you take Milton Keynes for example the bulk of the entries are below PN height, the PN class is always small compared to the others. Many of those competing will never compete at BE events, competing happily on the RC/PC/Unaf circuit.
 
SC- thanks, sadly even if Hopalong gets back to ODE fitness there's no way I could do a 3DE with her or travel her that distance. :( Entry fee is very reasonable, although I'd say stabling costs sound quite steep- all the stabling I've used has been £20/£25 per night, so I guess (as smurf says) it's all the added extras that add up and price it out of interest for folk? Maybe one day in the future I'll trundle down on a road trip?! ;)
 
I think this seems like BE's attempt to make GR Champs for the GR RIDER, not GR HORSE.

If you are never going to get above PN then you clearly are a GR rider and should be aiming for these sort of champs, I think that's fair and logical.

Clearly the GR champs are not aimed are better riders on novicey horses there is BYEH for that, no?...

I think it's a positive message from BE for GR competitors like myself, because they are trying to establish a level playing field for a group of riders with similar standards and competitive aspirations.

I agree the 'middle man rider' (am's around nov, int etc) with only the 1/few horses not doing it professionally is rather left out and forgotten about because they are neither solidly in 1 camp or the other. Not sure how to fix that really, but a placings ranking seems most logical or am pro sectioning at events?...
 
To me, Grass Roots riders are those that are at the lower/beginning levels of the sport. Intermediate is level 5 of 6:

BE80
BE90
BE100
Novice
(CCI*)
Intermediate
(CCI**)
Advanced
(CCI***)
(CCI****)

So therefore a rider competing at Intermediate IS NOT a Grass Roots rider. Even if you include the CCI levels, Intermediate is still level 6 of 10, again not a low level.
 
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