Eventing New BE rules- 2 XC eliminations and made to drop down a level, thoughts?

shortstuff99

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 September 2008
Messages
1,309
Location
Currently Cambridgeshire! (or where ever I fancy)!
I have just seen this article here https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/british-eventing-rules-2019-674619 that states how from this season if a combination has 2 consecutive XC eliminations or 3 in a rolling 12 months then they will be made to compete at a lower level until they have gained a MER at that level. What are people's thoughts? I can see why BE have done it but I can also see how easy it would be for this to happen.
 

Nicnac

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 May 2007
Messages
5,518
Absolutely support this. Remember when sprog had to be passed as competent in all three phases before being allowed BE on every horse she competed due to age. Being an adult doesn't make one competent.

I believe if this rule is infringed at 80 level, then a combination will need to be passed as competent by a BE coach before allowing to compete again.
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
17,142
I really struggled to go from 100/PN, clocking double clears, to Novice and was never eliminated twice in one season on the same horse, so I think this rule is probably right.
 

paddi22

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2010
Messages
4,439
Its been in ireland a while now and works well. However, it does make it tricky with young/green horses, there's very little margin for error if they have a run out at consecutive events.
Unaffiliated events here (that would usually have been populated by older leisure riders/people who have never evented) are now absolutely jammed with pros bringing young horses.

If you have, say, one elimination, and then have a run out at your next event it really can hit your level.
 

be positive

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 July 2011
Messages
16,705
If it happens then one would hope any sensible rider would step down a level irrespective of the rules.
So yes, I’d support the rule wholeheartedly
It makes sense to me, the less sensible do not always think to drop back a level even if it is obvious to more experienced riders.
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
17,142
Its been in ireland a while now and works well. However, it does make it tricky with young/green horses, there's very little margin for error if they have a run out at consecutive events.
Unaffiliated events here (that would usually have been populated by older leisure riders/people who have never evented) are now absolutely jammed with pros bringing young horses.

If you have, say, one elimination, and then have a run out at your next event it really can hit your level.

I don't understand your answer? To get eliminated XC BE you have to have three refusals/run outs at a single fence, or five (last time I rode BE, is it still?) on the course in total. Is it less in Ireland?
 

popsdosh

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 November 2008
Messages
6,382
I think its a really positive move. As somebody who fence judges regularly we know the serial offenders and none of them seem to be able to put two and two together . Seriously they are mandating something that any rider with half a brain should be doing anyhow. My reservation would be that the quick thinkers will still get around the system by using the same tactic that many riders do to protect a horses record ie pull out before being eliminated and they will be unaffected.
 

popsdosh

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 November 2008
Messages
6,382
I totally agree with you . If I had a horse with a so called professional rider that ended up falling foul of this rule ,it wouldnt be there any longer events are not for schooling thats done at home and I would not consider a horse ready to event until I was pretty confident it would not get eliminated at an event. Teaching a horse to jump should be done where you have the time and freedom to correct an issue. Blips happen but this rule more than compensates for this .
I think I would consider strengthening it with a ruling covering riders with multiple horses as like I say some are serial offenders. Also I think the horses should be protected because as I understand this ruling it only applies to the combination.
 

Bernster

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 August 2011
Messages
4,753
Location
London
I saw this on a Wobbleberry site, and had a horrible feeling that it might be partly caused by Wobbleberries! I hope not. I do understand it and can see the sense in it

I do wonder about green or inexperienced combinations who might get hit by this but I suppose if it’s just a blip they can move up later on. I’m not very experienced with BE - can you just stay at one level an not have to move up? Aren’t there things that happen in a comp environment that are hard to recreate in training? And does it mean the unaff events, which may not have as good or safe a course, will get over subscribed? At 80 I could see more people impacted by this as they start their BE outings and the idea of an inspection could put people off.

I assume BE have considered all of this, and more, and the intent is to reduce the numbers and deter the less competent ones.

Anyhoo, just some ponderings but overall I don’t have a problem with it.
 

Red-1

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 February 2013
Messages
7,322
Location
Yorkshire
I have 4 Es over my time (1998- 2014), but yes 2 of those were for errors of course!

One WAS for refusals, after which the horse retired as he really was not enjoying it, so it would not have affected him. He was a wizz at BE100, always won a numnah, nut the step to Novice was not to his liking. I did not need telling by BE, it was obvious to me. That is the horse that my OH took on. The horse taught him to ride, taught friends to ride, went hunting, team chasing (only once as he did not really enjoy that either!).

The 4th was not really an E, at Weston 3 day she jumped a fence, I patted her, turned to move on again and she slipped on some leaves. She did fall, but the fall was not to do with the fence, so it should have been recorded as a R, as I did not re-mount and continue, I decided to retire as we were both shaken up. On the day it was declared as a Retirement, but later the computer records show an E. I *could* have bought the video to show the slip was after the fence and not to do with it, but she was my horse, not for sale, not a pro, so I did not. I can see that this could now be an issue though.

I don't think retiring would be a cheat always, when I brought-on my last horse I retired at his first event, a BE90. I had checked the regulations for the course, and there *should* not have been a 4 effort combination which included a step. He could do steps, but I felt such a combination, that we had not prepared for, should not have been asked to do, on his first ever event, was too much. We did the course to the 14th fence or whatever it was, that was near the start, so I did the ones we wanted, patted him like he had won the Grand National, informed the nearest fence judge and went back. It worked as he became the most confident, careful, generous XC horse. So, a retirement there was the best possible solution.

In general I agree with the new rule, it would never have affected me thus far, but.... as a 50-something, not evented since 2014 and with a baby horse I am kind of cussing the timing!

I do know people who were regularly E'd on their horses and I felt very sorry for the horses as the owner could not see sense. So yes, I think it is a good thing.
 

jj_87

Active Member
Joined
18 July 2005
Messages
608
Location
Lancashire
As a fence judge (due to a sick note of a horse), this is much needed, there are often repeat offenders- I hate to stereotype but it is the lower levels. I know most of these people are amateurs juggling jobs, families etc but they often really aren't ready.

Last year whilst fence judging an 80 I saw some of the worst falls of the weekend and we had classes upto Novice. It was carnage.
 

windand rain

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2012
Messages
4,095
I think its a great rule I also like the change in height for ponies it means the pony that pops round the BE 90 course at unaffiliated events can now do this more at safer and better constructed courses. So both rule changes get my approval She is 132cm so only just makes the new height
 

paddi22

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2010
Messages
4,439
I don't understand your answer? To get eliminated XC BE you have to have three refusals/run outs at a single fence, or five (last time I rode BE, is it still?) on the course in total. Is it less in Ireland?
But say you have an elimination at one event, and then at the next event you have a refusal (but not elimination) it really hits your equi-rating quite hard. And, say, if you go clear the next two events, but then have a run out at the event AFTER that (even if its 5 months down the line), your equirating can still stay very bad. That's just from my experience.

This year I had a horse who had a physical issue on course (his rib cage twisted and locked up) and he very suddenly just melted with the pain and we got eliminated cause he was rearing/dangerous. thats the only elimination we have ever had, he had previously had a good record. He got back eventing when it was fixed but had lost a bit of confidence and had a wobbley run out at his next event, and it made it impossible for us to get the rating clear to go up to the level we were aiming at that year. He went clear and placed at a few events after, but we still didn't get the rating up in time by the end of the season.

It will definitely affect the way I plan my season this year. I am only picking events that I know he loves. i am staying away from courses where I know he doesn't like particular fences there, just on the offchance we would have a stop and it would mess up our rating, even though he has jumped them in previous seasons. I can just tell from his record which courses he likes, so il only aim at those. So for event planners, I would imagine the easier courses will get more entries.

I can def see it affecting how people plan season now, I know my friends with young horses think its fairly harsh. One girl had two run outs on her first event with a four year old, then she had another two run outs the next event, one was a stop at a ditch, and one was her taking too long to go into the water. Her rating is fecked completely for that horse now.

And I know people say you should school unaffiliated and horses should be prepared for BE or EI events, but at the end of the day, with a green horse you never can tell what will cause them to wobble on course. I had one horse who freaked out cause there was garlic bushes growing beside a fence and the smell totally affected him! He just backed off the fence a few strides out. Horses react to the course they are on in strange ways at times!
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
2,222
I think its a great rule I also like the change in height for ponies it means the pony that pops round the BE 90 course at unaffiliated events can now do this more at safer and better constructed courses. So both rule changes get my approval She is 132cm so only just makes the new height
What's the pony rule change?
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
14,637
The post is about BE rules not Irish/equiratings

And yes, whilst it’s probably going to be most commonly seen at lower levels (which is to be expected given volumes of competitors and experience levels), there may easily be a few higher up that rightly get caught. I have in my mind someone who started a 4* in recent years that were very lucky their horse pulled itself up early - the record in the run up is scary.
 

paddi22

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2010
Messages
4,439
The post is about BE rules not Irish/equiratings

And yes, whilst it’s probably going to be most commonly seen at lower levels (which is to be expected given volumes of competitors and experience levels), there may easily be a few higher up that rightly get caught. I have in my mind someone who started a 4* in recent years that were very lucky their horse pulled itself up early - the record in the run up is scary.
but its the equiratings system they are using, so it will be the same system irealnd has had for the last few years
https://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/news/item.aspx?id=6788
So it will affect peopel the same in britain
 

shortstuff99

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 September 2008
Messages
1,309
Location
Currently Cambridgeshire! (or where ever I fancy)!
While I do think it is great for safety, is this rule going to make riders think about stepping down levels or are they just going to move to unaffiliated instead where they won't be monitored and more dangerous practices might happen? I know all horses should be great at home before entering an event but sometimes you just don't know what will happen and a couple of green errors could actually end a season. What would happen if you had a slightly silly fall at one point in the season made it to say grassroots finals at Badminton, the course is quite tough and you have 3 run outs or perhaps a fall and then you're told you're not capable of riding that level? But now you have to spend more money and more time and more mileage on your horse that is perfectly capable.
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
14,637
but its the equiratings system they are using, so it will be the same system irealnd has had for the last few years
https://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/news/item.aspx?id=6788
So it will affect peopel the same in britain
That is an article from nearly 2 years ago. I have no doubt it underlined the new BE ruling. BUT the BE rules are not based on a riders equi-rating. They are based on a clear cut result.

In case you missed the link in the OP:
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/british-eventing-rules-2019-674619
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
14,637
While I do think it is great for safety, is this rule going to make riders think about stepping down levels or are they just going to move to unaffiliated instead where they won't be monitored and more dangerous practices might happen? I know all horses should be great at home before entering an event but sometimes you just don't know what will happen and a couple of green errors could actually end a season. What would happen if you had a slightly silly fall at one point in the season made it to say grassroots finals at Badminton, the course is quite tough and you have 3 run outs or perhaps a fall and then you're told you're not capable of riding that level? But now you have to spend more money and more time and more mileage on your horse that is perfectly capable.
Silly green errors are a run out here or there, or an unfortunate tip off.
Multiple eliminations are not green errors they are an under prepared horse.

The rule is 2 consecutive eliminations or 3 over a 12 month period and does not include TE. It gives sufficient breathing room for an unintended mishap or a green moment IMO.

If riders are stupid enough to have a BE imposed downgrade and not reflect on why that may be then it’s Darwin in action.
 

Fiona

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 July 2001
Messages
8,892
Location
N. Ireland

windand rain

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2012
Messages
4,095
Pony change is the height of the ponies allowed to compete at BE80 and 90 has been reduced to 132 from 137cm so ponies under 14hh can now affiliate
they do have to exceed 132cm or just under 13hh We have a cracking pony that loves eventing but we couldnt affiliate her as she was too small. She did jump cleanly round the same courses when they were used unaffiliated but the jockey wants to affiliate as those courses are usually better run and in many cases safer
 

Lexi_

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 August 2013
Messages
1,272
While I do think it is great for safety, is this rule going to make riders think about stepping down levels or are they just going to move to unaffiliated instead where they won't be monitored and more dangerous practices might happen? I know all horses should be great at home before entering an event but sometimes you just don't know what will happen and a couple of green errors could actually end a season. What would happen if you had a slightly silly fall at one point in the season made it to say grassroots finals at Badminton, the course is quite tough and you have 3 run outs or perhaps a fall and then you're told you're not capable of riding that level? But now you have to spend more money and more time and more mileage on your horse that is perfectly capable.
I don’t quite follow the logic in this example. Yes, the first part would be unfortunate but if you’re good enough to qualify for the grassroots champs, doing one run at a lower level to get your MER and then going back up to the higher level surely isn’t a big deal?

I don’t have the MER details to hand but from memory it’s something like an average dressage test, less than 4 fences (?) down showjumping and a clear and not super slow cross country round. If you were good enough to move up to say 100 level and had a blip, meeting those standards back at 90 shouldn’t be difficult, or require loads of runs to reach.
 

zaminda

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 August 2008
Messages
2,102
Location
Somerset
I think its a great rule I also like the change in height for ponies it means the pony that pops round the BE 90 course at unaffiliated events can now do this more at safer and better constructed courses. So both rule changes get my approval She is 132cm so only just makes the new height
I hadn't seen that!! Means my lovely little pony can now go BE!
 

shortstuff99

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 September 2008
Messages
1,309
Location
Currently Cambridgeshire! (or where ever I fancy)!
I don’t quite follow the logic in this example. Yes, the first part would be unfortunate but if you’re good enough to qualify for the grassroots champs, doing one run at a lower level to get your MER and then going back up to the higher level surely isn’t a big deal?

I don’t have the MER details to hand but from memory it’s something like an average dressage test, less than 4 fences (?) down showjumping and a clear and not super slow cross country round. If you were good enough to move up to say 100 level and had a blip, meeting those standards back at 90 shouldn’t be difficult, or require loads of runs to reach.
Its not that it would be hard but, it's an extra £200-300 on top of extra wear and tear on a horse that doesn't need it just for one MER. But it's all hypothetical of course![/QUOTE]
 
Joined
11 February 2011
Messages
440
Location
Surrey
BE may be partnered with equiratings, but they aren't going to be using our traffic light system (yet!)

They are only taking eliminations into account.

Fiona
This rules do not look at the ERQI yet, but BE do work with EquiRatings and are working to implement the BE ERQI publicly in the future. BE have already started using ERQIs in the background. The elimination rule comes from stats and the fact that the FEI already use it, so the rule has already got a track record.
 

Lexi_

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 August 2013
Messages
1,272
Its not that it would be hard but, it's an extra £200-300 on top of extra wear and tear on a horse that doesn't need it just for one MER. But it's all hypothetical of course!
But surely you substitute one of your planned higher level runs for a lower level one, which would be normal practice if you were having eliminations at the higher level anyway? It wouldn’t be an extra competition, just a sensible alteration to your planned season.
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
2,222
I think there may be occasions where people are very unlucky. I took Max round a BE80 a couple of years ago. He pecked on landing after the first fence and I went straight over his head (hazards of riding ponies - there is nothing in front!!) This was when you could continue after a fall and he jumped round the rest clear but these days that would be E. That kind of bad luck twice for a newbie at 80T would be really disheartening. On the other hand I have a friend who has been eliminated several times at BE80 for rider falls. Her horse is a stopper. This rule would save her from herself as she is far too driven and competitive to stop going out eventing even though really her horse is not suited to it. She's not very happy about it though. Especially as the horse has been placed top ten several times. It either finishes on a lovely low dressage score or ditches the rider on the XC course.
 

Chippers1

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2017
Messages
371
Pony change is the height of the ponies allowed to compete at BE80 and 90 has been reduced to 132 from 137cm so ponies under 14hh can now affiliate
they do have to exceed 132cm or just under 13hh We have a cracking pony that loves eventing but we couldnt affiliate her as she was too small. She did jump cleanly round the same courses when they were used unaffiliated but the jockey wants to affiliate as those courses are usually better run and in many cases safer
I waited years for this rule to change as my old pony would've flown round a BE80, it's now about 4 years too late for that now! So glad that small ponies are being recognised 😊
 
Top