New Horse: Nappy to school and mounting block / groundwork & relationship

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alishaarrr

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I bought my horse (10yo ISHxHolsteiner gelding) just over a month ago. He is my first, although I've done umpteen shares over the years so am not completely new at getting acquainted with a new horse. He's a been-there done-that type, very well trained under saddle and knows his job. He is the dominant one in his field and can be a little pushy on the ground -- I think he has been allowed to get away with a fair bit with previous owners, and his ground manners are OK but can use some polishing up. When ridden, he is very well behaved, albeit quite lazy.

We are still clearly in the boundaries-testing phase of a new horse and rider relationship. I have been dong groundwork with him, and he's generally good other than getting bored with it easily and can be a bit bratty at those times. I am trying to keep things short and varied.

The biggest issue I'm having, however, is that he's really nappy going into any of the schools and up to any mounting blocks. It started just with the mounting block, then progressed to entering the school, and now he does it leaving the stable block when he's got tack on. It's a real "plant all four feet and put head in the air refusing to go forward" situation. First few times, a gentle few taps with a schooling whip would get him to move forward. Now it takes a fair bit more coaxing to get him to move forward (circles, backing up, tapping with the whip, anything to get him to walk forward -- big release of pressure and praise when he steps forward). As yet I have tried to be very calm and patient and not too forceful about this. I have not incorporated treats since he is a bit mouthy and can be a pain about frisking for food.

I have had the saddle fitter out, teeth were done a few weeks ago, and over the summer he had his back done and two physio appointments. Fivve-stage PPE six weeks ago was all normal. I do have another appointment to get his back done next month, just in case. I've spoken with his last owner and she said she never had this issue with him. When I do get on, he is not being worked hard or anywhere above his capability -- simple schooling or hacking, occasionally a few jumps.

I'm getting to be at my wits' end with this behavior, especially as it appears to be escalating. There seem to be different schools of thought on how to handle such things:

1) Be more firm about corrections to really clarify the roles and that this behavior is not to continue.

2) Take a more passive leadership approach and take it slowly, e.g. do more relationship-building and groundwork; get him going forward at his own pace and make a big fuss once he does it; once mounted, do two minutes of work and then get off so he develops a more positive association with being led to the mounting block and being ridden.

How would you deal with this? Can someone reassure me that this is eventually going to go away?
 
Have you had his bridle and bit checked.

Can his last owner come and help you at all.

Can you get some lessons to help you?
 
Depends on how you want to approach it and how much you want to spend.


Can be worth getting back/teeth/saddle done again for another opinion.

When you say groundwork what have you been doing? It’s far more successful if you follow one persons training plan rather than mix and match
 
I would see if the old owner would come and have a sit on him for you, if they are genuine and not a million miles away I’d hope they would.

How much help do you have on the ground and how nervous are you when he is napping?
 
ihatework said:
I would see if the old owner would come and have a sit on him for you, if they are genuine and not a million miles away I’d hope they would.

How much help do you have on the ground and how nervous are you when he is napping?
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Sadly, old owner is a couple hours' drive from me.

His napping doesn't make me nervous, it's just annoying, but I do feel a bit uncertain the best way to deal with it. I have not really asked other folks around the yard for help getting on him (that feels like such a horsemanship fail!). Can get a good groundwork trainer out to help with it, figured I'd ask folks here for some suggestions as well.
 
charterline said:
Depends on how you want to approach it and how much you want to spend.

Can be worth getting back/teeth/saddle done again for another opinion.

When you say groundwork what have you been doing? It’s far more successful if you follow one persons training plan rather than mix and match
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As far as groundwork, lots of stop/walk/back up everywhere we go, some lateral movements and bending. Have tried some focus for relaxation work (Warwick Schiller method) but I'm not sure it's been helpful. A lot of people emphasize ample time doing nothing in their field for a while or focusing more on liberty work, but this is a well-trained horse so I haven't invested quite as much in those sorts of tasks.

I'm definitely grateful for any suggestions for the best plan ...
 
I'd get someone like Horsehelp UK or an NH / IH type trainer out, it's amazing the difference they can make, particularly in a new relationship. The first question they'll ask is to confirm you've checked for pain, saddle, bridle fit etc. If they're all fine then they can help you.
 
alishaarrr said:
Sadly, old owner is a couple hours' drive from me.

His napping doesn't make me nervous, it's just annoying, but I do feel a bit uncertain the best way to deal with it. I have not really asked other folks around the yard for help getting on him (that feels like such a horsemanship fail!). Can get a good groundwork trainer out to help with it, figured I'd ask folks here for some suggestions as well.
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In the nicest possible way, there is no room for ego in horse training. There is no horsemanship fail in getting help.

First quick win is you have someone with you when you are getting on and going to the school. You need to break the cycle and if you are not sure how best to respond then you will only leave the horse guessing.

Time for some regular lessons, a fair bit firm approach and if it isn’t getting better a quick vet check

ETA - if I had sold a genuine horse and got a call from you, I’d happily travel 2h to assess the situation
 
alishaarrr said:
As far as groundwork, lots of stop/walk/back up everywhere we go, some lateral movements and bending. Have tried some focus for relaxation work (Warwick Schiller method) but I'm not sure it's been helpful. A lot of people emphasize ample time doing nothing in their field for a while or focusing more on liberty work, but this is a well-trained horse so I haven't invested quite as much in those sorts of tasks.

I'm definitely grateful for any suggestions for the best plan ...
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There was a girl on here who had a loony horse. Part of her fix it plan was following a series of groundwork videos on YouTube. I can’t remember the girl or the method name, however if you can find it, it’s free
 
Once you're happy it's not a physical problem, as a starting point, get a portable mounting block and take it to him. Wherever he plants put it down and get on! Even if you intend to school, get on him on the yard and ride him to the school. You'll need a helper to put it away again or open the school gate but that's only for a few minutes so you could easily arrange to ride at the same time as someone and they can hop on once they've helped you.
 
Is the saddle different from the one you tried him with.? Just because it technically fits him, he may not agree. Can you get hold of his original saddle to try and see if the behaviour is the same.
 
The hardest thing about napping is to work out why they are doing it in the first place. I would guess:

A) He is hurting somewhere and resents being ridden because he is in pain
B) He is resenting being ridden for some other reason, i.e. because his stable is beckoning = tea time, nice hay, being lazy, bonded with horse he is being separated from, etc.

My horse who never resents tack coming towards her was really misbehaving when I tacked her up the other day. Until I realized that I normally tacked up and rode first and did my stable after and on this particular day I'd leisurely done my stable and she had judged it to be tea time, so when she saw her tack coming towards her she was 'no thank you, its time to eat'.

She hasn't repeated her behaviour again but I've ridden first since....

I'd see what the physio thinks when she comes out next month. Just because he passed a vetting a short while ago doesn't mean to say the horse hasn't suffered a mischief in the field or stable and he's a bit sore.
 
Do you have to tack him up in his stable? Could you tack him up elsewhere? In the school for example?

Could you separate the tack process? See what he is reacting to whether bridle being on or saddle being on or both?? Lead him about with the saddle on or the bridle as see what he is objecting to.

If all is ok then I’d be doing things to make him work, backing, circling, keeping his feet moving so that even though he isn’t in the school he is moving and not getting his way so to speak. This doesn’t have to be done harshly just persistently and consistently.

How is he in just a headcollar and roller?? Have you lunged him? How was he doing this? Still napping at all??
 
My horse was a right nightmare to get on when I first got him. Just typical playing up. I went online to look up the best groundwork techniques that I felt comfortable with and doing these, combined with loads of time for getting on, he finally gave up. When mounting don’t get frustrated and if it takes an hour then it takes an hour, only try when you have loads of time. In between riding I would randomly take him to the mounting block, ask him to stand (which he always did :rolleyes:), then would just lean over him. Then give him a treat. Never had a problem since
 
I sound like a broken record but get thee to a Richard Maxwell demo. He's "on tour" just now and all the dates are on his website.

I've seen him three times now and going in November for a fourth time. I'm also a big fan of his books. Maximise Your Horsemanship and 20mins a day to unlock your Horse's talent would probably be the most relevant to you.

In his last demo one of the demo horses was behind the leg and slow to react off the leg. Max demonstrated how to introduce and use the "wip wop". It really built impulsion and had the horse properly going forward from behind.

Another favourite of mine is Max training horses to move towards the mounting block then park themself calmly for the rider to get on and wait for the aid to move forward.

If that interests you Max usually has clinics in the area local to the demos. Hes not cheap and I'm pretty sure that your first lesson has to be 2hrs (£££) but it works so I guess it depends of that's a route youd want to go down.
 
Black Beastie said:
Do you have to tack him up in his stable? Could you tack him up elsewhere? In the school for example?

Could you separate the tack process? See what he is reacting to whether bridle being on or saddle being on or both?? Lead him about with the saddle on or the bridle as see what he is objecting to.

If all is ok then I’d be doing things to make him work, backing, circling, keeping his feet moving so that even though he isn’t in the school he is moving and not getting his way so to speak. This doesn’t have to be done harshly just persistently and consistently.

How is he in just a headcollar and roller?? Have you lunged him? How was he doing this? Still napping at all??
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He is completely chill about being saddled and bridled -- doesn't bat an eye with saddle being put on or girth being done up snugly, and he is a proper gentleman about having his bridle put on (lowers his head and opens his mouth to let you put the bit in).

He has also napped when going into the school in a headcollar (less obstinate than when in tack but still fusses about it a little) and when I've tried to get him to walk up to the mounting block without tack on he has refused that also.

Lunging, he has some bad habits from previous owners. Per last owner, owner prior to that used to allow him to roll on the lunge line so he puts up a fuss when not allowed to do so ... also has minor tantrums when asked to go up a gait (leans head to the outside, swings hind end inward, tosses his head and runs out a little to try to get the lunge line out of your hands, maybe a wee buck) but he does seem to work out of it and then go pretty nicely if you don't react to his antics and quietly send him on.
 
amymay said:
What was his previous job OP? Has he been shod since being with you?
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Did a bit of everything, I think mainly dressage and hacking but some jumping with last owner over the past year; owner before that evented him I believe.

He was shod somewhat poorly when I got him (in the opinion of my farrier); my farrier was out last week to do him and progress toward a better hoof shape for him than what was done before. He thought the new trim would help him go a bit better but I'm not sure the prior style was anything that would've caused him discomfort per se. Have had one ride since his feet were done so if this was part of the problem, will have to see if he's changed his mind about life as a result. :p
 
Presumably he didn’t exhibit any of this behaviour when you tried him and you believe what the previous owner said about him not doing it with her? If so my first thought would be that he’s in pain somewhere. The schooling will make this worse than hacking, hence his reluctance to school, but be okay to hack, so a horse that exhibits this kind of behaviour is always a red flag for pain for me.

Did you have bloods taken at the vetting? If so I would get them tested.

There could be 100 different reasons for this behaviour so it’s difficult to know where to start, but you need to find out the cause before you can tackle it effectively. It could be pain, lack of confidence in new home, testing you out, reluctance to leave companions or dislike of schooling, to name but a few.

You say he’s dominant in the field and his ground manners aren’t great, so it maybe that he’s trying to dominate you, that said I would want to be 100% sure he wasn’t in pain before making that assumption
 
Loads of great advice above. In addition, what is in it for him when you go into the school/up to the mounting block? How does he benefit? What do you do to make sure he is having a good time? Some people will think me daft for saying that, and that a horse should do as it’s told just because we say so, but I treat it much like dog training. There are intrinsic benefits (I do this because it feels good) and extrinsic (I do this because I get paid). So what do you think the benefits are to him. And not things like he gets hay and water and turnout in a field afterwards. He has no idea those things are connected. I use treats with mine as payment, and fun activities that make him feel good, or just the release of pressure. It doesn’t make him any more bitey because he doesn’t get treats for mugging me for them. He gets them for things like pushing the gate when asked (so rather than being reluctant to go into the school, going in is a ‘trick’ or a game all by itself) or lining himself up against a mounting block. I work mine loose and clicker trained him to approach the block and move his quarters or shoulders towards it. Sometimes I get on, other times I get on and treat and straight off the other side, or I don’t get on but treat and then run off and put the block somewhere else in the school and call him, he then comes running over to line up again. It’s a fun game instead of the prelude to a what he may deem to be a boring schooling session. Stuff like that, how you can add value to his life instead of him just working for you. Obviously once all checks are done healthwise. (For info my pony used to be a total lunatic but playing all these games has made us a real team).
 
My mare was nappiest when her ulcers flared up. Ulcers won't have been picked up on a vetting, and the recent move may have even caused them - new routine, new company, new environment. I'd get a vet to scope as a first port of call - horses don't nap for the fun of it, there's nearly always something physical causing it, and he's trying to tell you that. If there's no sign of ulcers, I'd get a second opinion on the saddle.
 
Re not going to the mounting block: my friend's "new" horse (had him nearly a year) will not go to a mounting block, swings around and is a complete nuisance, however, she has a little box that she takes TO him and he stands like a lamb. She can even mount from the ground and he is good as gold, take him to the box/block and it is a no go. Some bad experience maybe?
 
It was a saddle that caused my mounting block issues. Professionally fitted but turned out not to be 100% straight - so sore horse.

We worked through that once the saddle was sorted with a combination of persistence and a food reward when I was on. I also used to mount in the arena then go and ride out so she stopped associating mounting with just arena work.
 
I would get the saddle checked again and a good Acpat physio to look at him.
I would deal with it firmly in a horse of that age when he goes into the school I would keep it short and sweet for a while .
I would ditch the groundwork .
 
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