New horse - pacing! ? All tips for canter welcome please!

[PatchyBabyHorse]

Thank you so much Gloi

I knew it wasn’t impossible - I’ve sat on it ? but it’s great to see the actual definition so clearly.

We had some good canters out hacking today. I wonder if the amount of eg standardbred in them affects how much/how often they pace?

Apparently, after reading some of the gaited pages, it’s very common for people who aren’t used to gaited horses to think they’re lame when they start to step. I’ll have to brace myself ??

 

[Gloi]

Thank you so much Gloi
I knew it wasn’t impossible - I’ve sat on it ? but it’s great to see the actual definition so clearly.
We had some good canters out hacking today. I wonder if the amount of eg standardbred in them affects how much/how often they pace?
Apparently, after reading some of the gaited pages, it’s very common for people who aren’t used to gaited horses to think they’re lame when they start to step. I’ll have to brace myself ??

They need either 1 or 2 copies of DMRT3 to have the ability to do the other gaits so it will depend on it being inherited. If you have both pace and trot you have the potential to get other intermediate gaits, you just have to play around and find out. This is the gait map seen for Icies but you will need to find out what selection of gaits yours has.

 

[PatchyBabyHorse]

Thank you!

What about walk? He does a normal walk, but sometimes when he’s feeling jolly he does an extremely fast walk. It’s as fast as a steady trot, but 4 time and very smooth. He’s not rushing, it’s rhythmical and swinging rather than just speeding along? But very fast and smooth.

Is this a thing or is this actually just smooth rushing? ?

 

[Gloi]

Thank you!

What about walk? He does a normal walk, but sometimes when he’s feeling jolly he does an extremely fast walk. It’s as fast as a steady trot, but 4 time and very smooth. He’s not rushing, it’s rhythmical and swinging rather than just speeding along? But very fast and smooth.

Is this a thing or is this actually just smooth rushing? ?

It is a thing. It's probably what in the US is called a 'Flat walk though it may be a tolt/saddle rack' Just be careful in walk that is stays a clean 4 time, I use my ears on the road , that's easiest. If you can keep that rhythm and build up the speed you will hopefully be able to build up the muscles to improve it, to either go in a running walk or rack. Once you do you can hack at that gait all day and sit and watch the scenery fly past and never want to trot again (though it is good for them to trot at times). My lad and all the Icies I had will outwalk most 3 gaited horses. On that gait wheel you are moving up towards the center from walk.
Maybe like this (their medium walk is not the dressage one)

 

[PatchyBabyHorse]

...you can hack at that gait all day and sit and watch the scenery fly past and never want to trot again

That’s exactly how I was today!! Just watching the hedges fly past wondering if this was a gaited thing and how I should train him out of it....then instantly thinking why would I EVER train him out of this, it feels incredible!

Not sure my hacking friends will agree though.....!

 

[Gloi]

That’s exactly how I was today!! Just watching the hedges fly past wondering if this was a gaited thing and how I should train him out of it....then instantly thinking why would I EVER train him out of this, it feels incredible!

Not sure my hacking friends will agree though.....!

Well you can do that when they are trotting and have a much comfier ride. It's a shame there isn't a lot of interest in gaited horses in the UK. In many places you would be paying a premium for it rather than thinking it is a fault. On my old Icy I could just sit there in tolt next to them trotting and when they cantered he could just speed it up and keep up with their canter. I hope my young lad can do that one day.

If you get that book I mentioned at the start of the thead it will explain a lot.

 

[twiggy2]

Where's the video?
It difficult to comment without seeing what the horse is doing?

 

[PatchyBabyHorse]

Some posters say they’ve seen the video, I haven’t shared it as I don’t think it’s fair to name the seller. He doesn’t do it on the ad video though. He just canters 4 time on one rein.

Again, if anyone does have the ad please don’t post publicly, as I’ve already stated earlier in the thread I think it would be unfair to name the seller. Thanks.

 

[ester]

As he doesn’t do it in the sellers video it would probably be more useful to have one of what he is doing with you though for comments

 

[TPO]

He doesn’t do it on the ad video though.

He does do something very noticeably off/odd during the cantering on grass section of the video.

As someone else posted there is a lot to unpick even beyond any issues within that gait. But you bought a project and that is what you've got so all good.

He's a smart looking wee horse.

 

[ycbm]

Do pacers routinely offer a clear trot and not offer to pace except in canter? I don't know I've never owned one, but I thought not?

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[PatchyBabyHorse]

As he doesn’t do it in the sellers video it would probably be more useful to have one of what he is doing with you though for comments

Well this was my intention but tbh I can do without all the nastiness, insults, insinuations that I’m an idiot, I deserve all I get, people saying he’s lame, going to go lame, horrid horse who no right minded person would have bought, what I’m describing is impossible etc etc.
It can be quite upsetting, so although I will get it filmed tomorrow I think I’ll stick to asking friends, my vet, and maybe gaited horse Facebook groups.

I’ll probably be called over sensitive now for having said that, but honestly it’s really not nice or necessary. I posted for a bit of advice about a new horse, and whilst I’ve had that from a couple of posters, from the rest I’ve just had unpleasantness.

He might not be your cup of tea but he’s still my much loved new horse. All I was after was advice on canter, not a pile on about how awful he is and how stupid I am.

Thank you very much TPO, I like him too. He’s also one of the kindest, nicest tempered horses I’ve ever had.

I don’t know ycbm. I know hardly anything about pacers/trotters as I’ve never dealt with them, hence trying to learn all I can quickly.
I’m assuming yes as it’s what he does but I don’t know if it’s usual.

 

[Gloi]

Do pacers routinely offer a clear trot and not offer to pace except in canter? I don't know I've never owned one, but I thought not?

.

How long is a piece of string? There is a really big variation. If a horse is really pacey, pacing at walk and every speed up to flat out it will be hard to get a usable trot.
However most will have trot and whether they trot or pace or do a 4 beat gait depends on their tension and posture. But many will also have a really good trot.
A lot have been raced in harness though and only trained in pace and are likely to be stiff and confirmed in that gait, but if they haven't been that route then should have pace, trot and hopefully a selection of 4 time gaits in between. Watching them loose in the field going up and down slopes will give an idea.
They can have a clear trot but still offer pace at other points, eg when I hack my pony I will be trotting along a slight uphill road and as the slope flattens out , if I let him choose his gait rather than dictating it, he will go into a 4 beat tolt, if the road starts to slope down a bit he will gradually change to pace, and back again to trot as we go up the next hill.
The gene that allows lateral gaits doesn't stop diagonal ones.

 

[ycbm]

Well this was my intention but tbh I can do without all the nastiness, insults, insinuations that I’m an idiot, I deserve all I get, people saying he’s lame, going to go lame, horrid horse who no right minded person would have bought, what I’m describing is impossible etc etc.
It can be quite upsetting, so although I will get it filmed tomorrow I think I’ll stick to asking friends, my vet, and maybe gaited horse Facebook groups.

I’ll probably be called over sensitive now for having said that, but honestly it’s really not nice or necessary. I posted for a bit of advice about a new horse, and whilst I’ve had that from a couple of posters, from the rest I’ve just had unpleasantness.

He might not be your cup of tea but he’s still my much loved new horse. All I was after was advice on canter, not a pile on about how awful he is and how stupid I am.

I'm really sorry this thread has turned into a critique of your horse, who has the potential to be a smart little fellow. But you have nobody but yourself to blame for that by strongly criticising the seller for hiding things from you and repeating it. In order to respond to that comment, people wanted to see the video. And on the video there is a horse whose jump has the wow factor, but whose trot and canter raise some serious questions.

I hope he is a pacer, because that will answer what the issues are. But what you are describing, so far, is also symptomatic either of a very green horse, or of back/hind leg/neuro issues. I am NOT saying your horse has these, but if he does (and I sincerely hope not for both your sakes) then continuing training in the belief he's a pacer could do more harm than good.

I think it would be a very good idea to get him genetically tested so you are more clear what you are dealing with.

Like Ester, I would like to see some video of what he is actually doing, but maybe a new thread would be a good idea.

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[PatchyBabyHorse]

I hope he is a pacer, because that will answer what the issues are. But what you are describing, so far, is also symptomatic either of a very green horse, or of back/hind leg/neuro issues. I am NOT saying your horse has these, but if he does (and I sincerely hope not for both your sakes) then continuing training in the belief he's a pacer could do more harm than good...
....Like Ester, I would like to see some video of what he is actually doing, but maybe a new thread would be a good idea.

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He is obviously a pacer, as he is pacing. Why do you persist in disbelieving this? Why carry on with the ‘he must be seriously lame’ line rather than just believing me when I say that he has been felt, and SEEN (by someone more experienced with pacers than you) to pace? And that he passed a five stage vetting very very recently, which presumably he wouldn’t if he were such a cripple?

Of course I won’t be posting further videos or threads. Why on EARTH would I? In what possible way would it benefit me?
It would give people more to pick at about my horse, true (you could all have a pop at my riding too, that would be fun) but it would only cause further upset for me, so no of course I won’t be.

 

[MiniMilton]

He is obviously a pacer, as he is pacing. Why do you persist in disbelieving this? Why carry on with the ‘he must be seriously lame’ line rather than just believing me when I say that he has been felt, and SEEN (by someone more experienced with pacers than you) to pace? And that he passed a five stage vetting very very recently, which presumably he wouldn’t if he were such a cripple?

Personally I wouldn't be completely confident in a 5 stage vetting picking up very subtle SI injuries. This is something you can feel in canter in an otherwise "sound" horse. Was he ridden in canter for the vetting? Most Irish vettings are unridden.
Do you know his background at all? If he came from Ireland and is a pacer, chances are he was on a sulky as a yearling so the chances of an SI injury is higher.
The horses with those sort of bloodlines in Ireland generally have a very rough start. I'm not being negative about your horse, I do think he is lovely. The problem with horses with such a nice temperament is they can struggle on and try to canter whereas another less tolerant horse might start to object. As said before, I'd be getting a thorough vet and physio check focusing on SI area. Only after those come back clear would I start strengthening exercises.

 

[Gloi]

Everything PBH has mentioned about her horse is perfectly normal in a horse with the potential for lateral gaits and what she said about her horse's walk gives a lot of potential for him to have a lovely 4 beat intermediate gait.

 

[PatchyBabyHorse]

Thank you.
He was vetted in the uk, standard 5 stage so yes he was ridden. I know some of his history in Ireland. I don’t think he’s driven, I have experience with driving horses and he doesn’t long rein like one but you never know.
He’s been very well looked after, not your classic import, he catches, picks feet up, you can touch his ears no problem. Had his wolf teeth out, in very good condition, good feet etc.

 

[PatchyBabyHorse]

Everything PBH has mentioned about her horse is perfectly normal in a horse with the potential for lateral gaits and what she said about her horse's walk gives a lot of potential for him to be have a lovely 4 beat intermediate gait

Thank you very much Gloi.

Incidentally, on the standardbred pages (which I think he probably is/or part bred), people say they often have others asking if their horse is lame or there’s something wrong with it.

I’ve had zero experience with gaited horses before, but I have to say if mine is typical of the type then he won’t be my last!

 

[Gloi]

I’ve had zero experience with gaited horses before, but I have to say if mine is typical of the type then he won’t be my last!

It will be a very steep learning curve but it's very much worth it. There is nothing nicer than riding out on a good gaited horse, it's a shame it is such a niche thing in the UK.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I also saw the video when he was advertised and thought he was a lovely looking lad, but equally there seemed to be something off about his movements which went beyond just being green for me (especially when he was being ridden in the field).

I don’t have much experience with pacers/trotters so it absolutely could just be that I was picking up on, but in your shoes for my own peace of mind I’d want to know there wasn’t a physical issue causing the behaviour, especially as it generally seems to manifest itself only in the canter.

FWIW I bought my 2yo as a weanling unseen from Germany and found the forum to be nothing but supportive, so I don’t think the general forum consensus is buying unseen = numpty novice. I imagine in this scenario your accusations against the seller is what got people’s backs up.

 

[SEL]

I worked on a yard which retrained pacers when I was in Oz. They'd raced with scullies so were pretty fast.

We had a big safe long beach. Used to take out one at a time with an older horse once we'd checked the ridden basics were in place. I'd get them to watch the older horse having a canter then pop them in behind and we'd gallop. Front legs cantering and back doing something different was common but most of them got it in the end. My only real failure was one that had won tonnes - he just used to pace faster!

We never bothered teaching them regular trot - it wasn't expected and given they used to pace at liberty in the paddocks I've no idea if you even could teach it.

Keep us posted - be interesting to hear how he gets on

 

[Ownedby4horses]

can anyone answer does a pacer walk the same as non gaited horses? is it only in the "trot" that you would see the diagonal movement?

OP, really interested as my trotter (as i said before) was exactly the same, he would canter front end and his back legs trotted while he tried to figure out canter and a number of people claimed he looked lame (he had a full vet check and nothing was found).

My friend a few years ago had a pacer but i only saw her in the field grazing, so didnt see her move. However, she had terrible trouble cantering her as her movement was so bad it threw my friends back out a few times so she kept her just as a hack.

Im thinking if you get a canter on one rein and its a "normal canter", it is more of a balance issue and sounds more like a trotter than a pacer.

My trotter had the most incredible smooth trot, he qualified and raced a number of times under harness and he was fast, he could leave a whole herd galloping flat out with him trotting way ahead (and some were ex racers). To ride, my boy when encouraged trotted with such speed and it was incredibly smooth to ride and we just glided.

It just seems your boy to me is a standardbred trotter, not a pacer.

 

[Gloi]

can anyone answer does a pacer walk the same as non gaited horses? is it only in the "trot" that you would see the diagonal movement?

they will do either a normal 4time walk or a 2 time pace walk or anything in-between depending how stiff they are and how they are carrying themselves.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

they will do either a normal 4time walk or a 2 time pace walk or anything in-between depending how stiff they are and how they are carrying themselves.

Thanks Gloi, really interesting. OP, I would be really interested how your boy walks.

 

[Gloi]

Thanks Gloi, really interesting. OP, I would be really interested how your boy walks.

How they are walking at a particular time can vary a lot. When ridden I find that if the walk goes pacey a couple of steps of shoulder in will square it up but it will depend on the horse.