bonny
Well-Known Member
It’s ok, I think there is some cross wires going on, hope you get a good resolution to the hernia problem and enjoy your pup x
New puppy will need surgery - where do we stand with the breeder?
- Thread starter Muddy unicorn
- Start date
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately she’s 4 hours away but yes we will definitely talk to her, thank you. I’m surprised she didn’t tell us earlier though as even to a lay eye it’s obviously not just a minor hernia - I know a lot resolve themselves as the puppy grows but our vet was very concerned about the size - there’s no way it’s going to be sorted without surgery
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
It’s what happens when you try to post during puppy witching hour ?
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Contact the licensing officer. KC means nothing, they are not regulators and have no power.
stormox
Well-Known Member
The breeders did tell you the puppy had a hernia. Did you not look at the hernia to see how big it was before you took the puppy?....Definitely the first port of call would be to ring the breeder and see what she says.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
My Gsd pup has a small hernia , breeder told me about it but it’s not an issue and I will probably get it fixed when she spayed . I would definitely talk to the breeder first . I’ve claimed on insurance for a congenital condition, but I suspect the issue with your pup is that the breeder was aware of the hernia before taking out the insurance,?
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
No, as I said she told me literally as she was handing the puppy over with other families waiting in her kitchen - I asked what does that mean and she said it’s very minor and can easily be fixed at the same time as neutering him. I’d already driven four hours to get there and had another four hours to get home. I’d been sitting in her kitchen for an hour and a half by that point plus she’d told me two days before that there was nothing wrong with the puppy. It was not the situation in which I could have made an informed decision. I would have expected her to tell me earlier which I think would have been the responsible thing to do
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
I realise that many hernias are not significant and will either resolve by themselves or are easily fixed during neutering - unfortunately this is one of the few that can’t wait until he’s older.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Yes sorry , I appreciate it’s a more serious issue for your pup . I was just giving an example of how my breeder dealt with it . She actually told me about the hernia before I went to see the pup . Is there anything in the contract re congenital conditions ?
Barton Bounty
Just simply loving life with Orbi 🥰
Have they given you a quote of how much it will cost?
if it is doable, do it and try to claw some back from the breeder , just an idea . He is super cute tho
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Whilst she did mention the hernia it appears she gave you incorrect info. ie it was small, no problem ATM when in fact the vet sees if differently.
is there anything in the paperwork/sales contract etc about it, pointing it out with a correct description, that you were made aware of it and accepted the pup regardless.?
I would contact her and ask for details of her vet, point out that you will need to contact him and you will also require a copy of her vet's report on the hernia as he will obviously have made notes when examining the puppy.
Make a point of asking her for her full vet details ie his name etc as you are going to ask your own vet to contact him to discuss this considerable difference in diagnosis.
Explain you are far from happy that she failed to point out the seriousness of the problem which you would have expected from a reputable breeder. You are considering how to take the matter forward, the question of licensing etc., anything else you can think of about her activities. Explain that when the 2 vets have considered the matter you will be looking for some financial assistance towards rectifying the problem.
Work out exactly what it is you want from her. ie the op costs X and I want you to pay half of X (or whatever)
her response will give you some idea which way it can go.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
Personally I’d give her a call to tell her what your vet said. See what her response is and give her a chance to offer to pay a contribution. If you go in all guns blazing she’s likely to get defensive and it will all go downhill from there.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I agree. I think the response suggested by paddy555 is rather full on for a first approach.
Boulty
Well-Known Member
Tricky one. She's been naughty by not telling you about it on the day of / day after vet report & waiting until you picked him up.
Do you have any paperwork from the vet check whilst with breeder & if so what is the wording re the hernia? (ie does it say anything about size, depth & recommended treatment)
I'm not sure legally where you would stand on "sold as seen" as I don't think as a layperson you would be expected to have the veterinary knowledge required to able to assess what treatment a hernia would require & the urgency of this & so you trusted an experienced dog breeder to give you the correct advice. (Although equally her vet could have given her inappropriate advice).
Anyway would think it's worth a conversation asking for some money back to cover the cost of surgery being more than anticipated/ the problem being more serious than you were originally told. (ask your vet to either send you the notes for that appointment to send as proof of what has been reccomended). You may not get it but worth the ask.
The Hooligan had a small (as in it would not have warranted its own GA) hernia & neither testicle was descended (they eventually made it to the inguinal region but they were tiny & took some finding so we thought they were in his abdomen pretty much up until just before he was knocked out!) but I was aware of this from first conversation with breeder (& I suspect that's why he was for sale to a pet home) whereas obviously you've been thrown a bit of a curveball at short notice when the breeder had ample opportunity to give you a proper heads up.
Do you have any paperwork from the vet check whilst with breeder & if so what is the wording re the hernia? (ie does it say anything about size, depth & recommended treatment)
I'm not sure legally where you would stand on "sold as seen" as I don't think as a layperson you would be expected to have the veterinary knowledge required to able to assess what treatment a hernia would require & the urgency of this & so you trusted an experienced dog breeder to give you the correct advice. (Although equally her vet could have given her inappropriate advice).
Anyway would think it's worth a conversation asking for some money back to cover the cost of surgery being more than anticipated/ the problem being more serious than you were originally told. (ask your vet to either send you the notes for that appointment to send as proof of what has been reccomended). You may not get it but worth the ask.
The Hooligan had a small (as in it would not have warranted its own GA) hernia & neither testicle was descended (they eventually made it to the inguinal region but they were tiny & took some finding so we thought they were in his abdomen pretty much up until just before he was knocked out!) but I was aware of this from first conversation with breeder (& I suspect that's why he was for sale to a pet home) whereas obviously you've been thrown a bit of a curveball at short notice when the breeder had ample opportunity to give you a proper heads up.
Annette4
Well-Known Member
I have nothing helpful to add but he's bloomin lovely. I run a friend's Toller sometimes at flyball and she's such a big character. Almost converted me away from pointy noses ?
Squeak
Well-Known Member
Another with nothing helpful to add but I hope you manage to get a good resolution and he's absolutely GORGEOUS!
TheOldTrout
Completely Unknown Member
Nothing helpful to add except that your puppy is beautiful!
paddy555
Well-Known Member
that is fair enough however this breeder must have been aware of the size of this problem surely. If not then her own vet appears to have made a poor diagnosis.
I would find it difficult to see that she didn't. In which case I would be struggling to accept that she was not trying it on with OP. After all she could have phoned OP before OP made the 4 hour journey and explained the situation so that OP had a choice whether to go ahead. Why didn't she?
With the breeder's approach OP has simply been lumbered with a vet's bill with the breeder probably pretty sure OP or any purchaser would have fallen madly in love with the pup and would keep it and there was probably little they could do to make the breeder pay.
Of course I would approach it very politely and if the breeder came across as genuinely concerned and offering to help there would be no need for any further comment however the very detailed notes I had made for the phone call would include everything that I posted above to press for further action and cover all eventualities. I think sometimes it is best to get it all sorted with the first approach otherwise there is the possibility of the breeder no answering their phone etc for a later approach.
ETA the breeder has assumed the pup will be neutered so the hernia cost will basically be irrelevant. Neutering is a long way off and the pup may even remain intact.
.
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Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
I think I would ask your vet to contact the microchip vet and find out exactly what was said to the breeder. Then you can decide whether she has been economical with the story. Hope you can find a good outcome.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Any update OP?
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
This comment is not about the OP in particular.
When people buy horses they are recommended to get them vetted. Does this not apply with dogs where people are often paying as much as they would for a pony. There seem to be so many dogs around with terrible congenital defects that a person should be aware of before parting with their money.
When people buy horses they are recommended to get them vetted. Does this not apply with dogs where people are often paying as much as they would for a pony. There seem to be so many dogs around with terrible congenital defects that a person should be aware of before parting with their money.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I don't know in general but when I bought my pup, a GSD, I had 3 days per the sales contract to get him to a vet and checked out. If he failed this health check then he could go back for a refund.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Yes, most good breeders do this, and pups will have had a health check when they are microchipped before going to new homes. However whilst things like hernias and heart defects would be picked up, a lot of health issues would not show until a dog is older.
With regard to the OP contacting the breeders vet, as suggested by Highmileagecob, I suspect the vet won't release information other than to the breeder.
blackcob
🖖
Agreeing with the above posters that it’s usual, or at least recommended, that the puppy comes with a health cert from the breeder’s vet done shortly before the sale (usually at microchipping and/or vaccination) and then is checked out by your own vet shortly after. It’s only the basic, observable stuff - hernias, oral malocclusions, heart murmurs, presence or absence of testicles etc. They should also come with a month’s insurance cover note which normally applies at the point of sale/transfer of ownership.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
no they won't without authority. However if this is a genuine mistake by the breeder ie ignorance of the situation then no reason why she shouldn't provide the info. If she doesn't then, to my mind, only one conclusion to be drawn from her failure to do so and if she has covered this up then I doubt she is going to be receptive to paying some vet fees without a lot of pushing.
I think it is going to be difficult to get a contribution. OP may have a case to return for a refund but obviously emotionally she wants to keep him and the breeder will know this. That is why I would push hard.
Getting legal advice is a possibility but this probably will be almost as costly as the vet's bill.
.
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
Not yet - have emailed but no reply yet
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
If he had a really serious condition which hadn’t been picked up by the breeder’s vet’s health check then we could return him but we’re obviously not going to do that now he’s been with us for a week and a bit. There’s also usually a very long waiting list for Toller puppies as there are t very many of them around. I suspect that she’s not going to contribute anything to the surgery but at least we’ve asked. Thankfully we’re in a position to get the operation done without any financial issue but she couldn’t guarantee that that would be the case
AmyMay
Situation normal
I’d now follow up with a phone call.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
The breeder hasn't "covered this up", she told the new owners when they collected the puppy. You're advocating an extremely aggressive approach which is unwarranted I feel. Hernias are common and generally uncomplicated to resolve, there has been no subterfuge and if it was me I would have either mentioned it at the time, or more probably simply had my vet fix the problem as a fairly routine procedure.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
each to their own. If the breeder didn't cover it up why didn't they give the OP a full description of the hernia and that treatment was needed it couldn't wait until neutering. That way the buyer would have had all the info. on which to make a decision. . Whilst she didn't cover it up she didn't give the full info. Why not? Most hernias are uncomplicated this one apparently needs treatment now.
You would have mentioned it at the time and/or got it seen to. That comes across as a genuine and honest approach. Leaving the buyer to find out from their own vet that the pup needed treatment does not to my mind.
Surely if you pay a lot of money for a pup you do expect it to be in a suitable state to just take home and look after without the first thing that happens is it needs an op?
(I appreciate MM's POV that some things are not obvious and only become clear as the dog gets older)
Is my approach extremely aggressive? that depends to my mind. If the breeder now comes back immediately, says they have contacted their vet and they are sorry an op. is needed and they were given poor info by their vet (or whatever excuse) and of course they will contribute then yes it is aggressive however I would have had that part of the conversation already and found out their attitude.
If their view is they covered it up in the hope the buyer would just accept it then I don't think it is aggressive. I wouldn't be aggressive I would however be pretty forceful if I had to be.
This is a discussion group and everyone has a right to their own views and approach. Ours just differ.