limestonelil
Well-Known Member
Just horrific paddy555. So sorry you had to cope with that situation when you found out.
New puppy will need surgery - where do we stand with the breeder?
- Thread starter Muddy unicorn
- Start date
Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
I hope I haven't made you feel insulted. In reality your vets will know you as someone who pays their bills and does their best for their pet, and has the means to do so. You have a good working relationship with them. But it is ABSOLUTELY a vet's place to know how far you/the owner wants to go with diagnostics etc and whether you can and will pay for it. They don't make you feel cross because they already know you will pay up. However, as part of the admin team at a small animal practice, I know a considerable proportion of our time is spent chasing debt.
. Recent example (last 2 weeks). Pet comes in, very poorly, should have been brought in days before. Vet talks through options with client, client wants to go ahead and do everything. Written etimate given for £1800 ish - (this was a very poorly pet needing emergency surgery). That evening, client comes to collect (hopefully fixed) pet, comes to me on front desk and says they can't pay until the end of the month. This situation got quite unpleasant, with a partner coming in also and being pretty rude to us on reception, but in the end it turned out they COULD pay, albeit over 2 credit cards. They were insured too, although not with a company we deal directly with, which they had also been told.
Now you can't tell me it's not the vets's job to try to avoid this sort of situation arising? Because this sort of thing is a daily occurence and our relatively small practice carries tens of thousands of pounds of debt. Essentially when you agree to treatment, we are providing goods and services up front and relying on you/the insurance company paying for them. You wouldn't expect to drive away a new car without paying for it without some sort of credit check being done on you. Why should vets have to rely on trust, when it is broken again and again and again.
bonny
Well-Known Member
At my vets you have to pay upfront for an operation, no payment, no treatment. If your client is going to have to pay 1800 it would make sense to ask for the money first ?
Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
Sorry OP, we seem to have derailed your thread! Just to get back to that, the vet that originally saw the pup at health check is not legally allowed to discuss that with you without express permission of the breeder. This also includes sending the record to your own vet. So working WITH the breeder and keeping a good relationship with her is your best bet.
Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
And we often do, particularly when we have no financial history with the client (which was not the case in my example). But this pet came in as an "emergency" and the client had been given a pretty accurate estimate of costs and agreed them with the vet. If we asked for all costs up front including for emergency treatment, we'd be accused of being heartless money grabbers or some such. We really can't win.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Perhaps I should have quoted a different post, yours was the last post from vet professionals, which was why i quoted it but it was actually redders who said that she needed to.know if the clients were insured so that she knew how well she could do her job. If I were prepared to allow her to treat my animals, I would expect her to do her job to the best of her ability, regardless of my insurance status.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I’m still not clear on what the issue was, or what they did wrong. Either way obviously something went very wrong as far as you were concerned, and I’m really sorry.
Jack cost us £1000 in half an hour.
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
Just for interest, most puppies in my own breed from the continent are health guaranteed until 18 months or until HD/ED is done (can't be until 12 months).
If you tick the box 'for breeding or competition' rather than 'pet' and for any reason it is unsuitable for those things, either health or temperament, you are much better covered for a refund or another pup.
More of a general point but I repeat, whilst I appreciate it is very emotive/people get attached (I have had friends who have not been able to go through with it and some who have), if purchasers do not take breeders up on their guarantees, or they are not enforced, there is no incentive for them to do better.
If you tick the box 'for breeding or competition' rather than 'pet' and for any reason it is unsuitable for those things, either health or temperament, you are much better covered for a refund or another pup.
More of a general point but I repeat, whilst I appreciate it is very emotive/people get attached (I have had friends who have not been able to go through with it and some who have), if purchasers do not take breeders up on their guarantees, or they are not enforced, there is no incentive for them to do better.
Redders
Well-Known Member
Redders
Well-Known Member
I’ve actually just properly read PaS post.
I try my best regardless of available funds.
I can’t DO the absolute best without all the information. I can just use best guess, rather than base on evidence. That can’t be perfect because I don’t have all of the info I need to be spot on!
example:
Urinary signs, older pet. Kidneys? UTI? Hyperthyroidism? Calculi? Hypoparathyroidism? Cushings? Etc
start simple UTI tx and see if improves, if not can still be many different things, blood rules in or out some of them, but doesn’t always give me firm diagnosis. So if no money for bloods, I can only take it so far. If ok to do bloods but kidneys and other metabolic parameters ok, then I need to scan.
I try my best regardless of available funds.
I can’t DO the absolute best without all the information. I can just use best guess, rather than base on evidence. That can’t be perfect because I don’t have all of the info I need to be spot on!
example:
Urinary signs, older pet. Kidneys? UTI? Hyperthyroidism? Calculi? Hypoparathyroidism? Cushings? Etc
start simple UTI tx and see if improves, if not can still be many different things, blood rules in or out some of them, but doesn’t always give me firm diagnosis. So if no money for bloods, I can only take it so far. If ok to do bloods but kidneys and other metabolic parameters ok, then I need to scan.
Redders
Well-Known Member
I feel I need to justify myself. Are you insured isn’t the first question I ask. It tends to go:
Hi, so I’m a little worried about a couple of things, and that means we’re are going to need some tests, the costs can mount up, for example the hospitalisation fee and first test needed will be xx, how do you feel about that? Do you have insurance?
And then we go from there
Hi, so I’m a little worried about a couple of things, and that means we’re are going to need some tests, the costs can mount up, for example the hospitalisation fee and first test needed will be xx, how do you feel about that? Do you have insurance?
And then we go from there
AmyMay
Situation normal
I think it can be difficult for some owners, as they simply don’t know what questions to ask their vet about their animals health/treatment because they simply don’t have the experience.
I know when clients have taken dogs in to be seen and I’ve asked them if they asked the vet x, y, z they’ve usually said ‘no’.
So to have a vet with a really good ‘bedside’ manner is crucial. I know that I’ve felt like we’ve been on a bit of a conveyor belt sometimes with our dogs. The one vet I ask for now has a wonderful manner about her. She talks to you, listens to your concerns. I was very grateful for her last year when Daisy was ill. No fannying around. Urine tested, abdomen scanned, bloods run, chat had. At the same practice (with a different vet) I felt condescended when I said that I thought Jack might have bone cancer. She told me to stop googling. Jack was put down 10 days later with bone cancer in his elbow.
I’d rather my vet goes in all guns blazing than not. And if that means they ask me if I’m insured as a first quest then that’s absolutely fine by me.
Apologies for the waffle.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Our vet asks if you have insurance when the pet is registered and that information presumably is available on the computer system, along with the rest of the records.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
when they found themselves in a life and death situation they didn't bother to inform me. They carried on regardless. If I had been told I would have insisted PTS immediately. They already had instructions that was what I had asked for. Those instructions also included the point that I didn't need to be rung and asked again, just do it and then let me know.
In fact they have still not told me what happened that night nor in fact that there was any problem at all. After around 18 months I doubt they are likely to,
I was able to obtain details from the insurer and follow the trail back from the drugs used and various other information as to what went wrong. It was very clear from that as to why I wasn't notified.
They didn't need to tell me. They were dealing directly with the insurance company and merely sent their invoice to them for payment.
This was the first animal I have ever insured and I will not be insuring again. I had no control over his treatment.
In fact the whole thing came across as give us the lead, got the insurance details, we'll let you know when he can be collected.
I appreciate this is off topic so sorry OP I won't mention it again,
Redders
Well-Known Member
We always ask at registration and discuss it at new pet checks, but often people haven’t yet done it and are still deciding, or they are but don’t continue the four free week breeder insurance, or they have cancelled their insurance and they don’t let us know once they have bought insurance or have cancelled it so we can update records - so we can’t rely on that as gospel. It also matters who they are insured with and what the policy limit is and if there are any policy exclusions, so I do have to actually ask about it all. Pet insurance isn’t a rouse for vets to use it without consideration. We still have to justify why we have opted for which tests, even insurance companies call us to say they will pay for a surgery but they won’t pay for pain relief afterwards because they don’t feel it’s warranted - um, yes, it is. In fact today I removed a broken canine tooth from a cat - insurance said they would cover the op but not pain relief, so I wrote to the insurance company telling them we include that as part of our dental fee and pain relief absolutely is essential for the procedure, they did cover it in the end after I spoke with them.
I wish I didn’t have to ask about money or insurance, but I do.
I wish I didn’t have to ask about money or insurance, but I do.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Ok @Redders , what do you reckon to this. Took dog to the vets for medication check. He is an 8 yo dog with historical back issues from injury as a pup. Just takes a dose of painkiller (plus has physio every 6 weeks but that is not via the vet).
The vet announces that he has hip dysplasia (never been noticed before) and also needs extensive dental work. They pressured me to have the dental work. Funnily enough, I saw 2 other clients on the same predicament while I was there. I attach the quote.
I didn't think it was necessary. I took photos of his teeth that day, also attached.
I declined the work. I declined to even investigate his hip as he was happy and active, pain controlled and elderly. I did get the physio to check the hip, she could not find any particular fault with his hip.
6 months later, we were at the same practice, but a different vet. The new vet gives him a clean bill of health. No hip issues and, in fact, tells me his teeth are good.
We had not treated his teeth.
The dog is still fine.
The vet announces that he has hip dysplasia (never been noticed before) and also needs extensive dental work. They pressured me to have the dental work. Funnily enough, I saw 2 other clients on the same predicament while I was there. I attach the quote.
I didn't think it was necessary. I took photos of his teeth that day, also attached.
I declined the work. I declined to even investigate his hip as he was happy and active, pain controlled and elderly. I did get the physio to check the hip, she could not find any particular fault with his hip.
6 months later, we were at the same practice, but a different vet. The new vet gives him a clean bill of health. No hip issues and, in fact, tells me his teeth are good.
We had not treated his teeth.
The dog is still fine.
AmyMay
Situation normal
How much??? ??
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I think I wrote earlier on this thread of the same with a cat. First vet wanting £350 to extract a tooth, said it was essential and would be very painful if left. Second vet said she could see no reason whatever to extract the tooth. It wasn't done.
.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Our vets went through a phase,a good few years ago, of pushing insurance, for all animals, with one young vet being quite insulting about owners not opting for it. The partners, who we have known for many years, were informed and did apologise. I think, but have no proof, as it was a particular company that they were pushing, that there was some commission involved, possibly for the practice.
Redders
Well-Known Member
I can’t comment on cases I haven’t actually seen. But the photos don’t show the molars, which the estimate shows as requiring extraction, They are usually the worst affected so I couldn’t say as I can’t see them. There appears to be greying between the 102 and 103 and gum recession by the blunted gingival margin, which could indicate periodontal disease and mobility of those teeth - that would require extraction if so. Also I can’t diagnose from a photo.
the estimate also includes a pre GA blood test, a good idea to do for any age, and I recommend doing them after age 6/7/8 depending on breed, and it includes fluid therapy, I recommend that for longer procedures , known history of chronic illness or in older pets. You don’t have to have those bits if you don’t want to but you then can’t complain if something wasn’t picked up on the bloods because they weren’t taken. That’s your choice.
I think it’s pretty unfair to throw a grievance you clearly have with your vet at me. Have a problem with them, bring it up with them, that is your choice and your right.
Did they force you to have the treatment? Or did they give you their professional assessment and recommendations with an estimate of what that may cost?
The vet may have noticed something on the clinical exam that indicates hip pain and discussed the possibility of ruling it out (hip dysplasia causes early onset OA so isn’t just noticed when they are young pups)
Broken teeth and dental disease is a source of chronic pain in pets and they just don’t show the signs of it. Teeth are a fair bit of surgical work to remove, especially canines and molars, they take quite a long time therefore they cost a fair bit.
the estimate also includes a pre GA blood test, a good idea to do for any age, and I recommend doing them after age 6/7/8 depending on breed, and it includes fluid therapy, I recommend that for longer procedures , known history of chronic illness or in older pets. You don’t have to have those bits if you don’t want to but you then can’t complain if something wasn’t picked up on the bloods because they weren’t taken. That’s your choice.
I think it’s pretty unfair to throw a grievance you clearly have with your vet at me. Have a problem with them, bring it up with them, that is your choice and your right.
Did they force you to have the treatment? Or did they give you their professional assessment and recommendations with an estimate of what that may cost?
The vet may have noticed something on the clinical exam that indicates hip pain and discussed the possibility of ruling it out (hip dysplasia causes early onset OA so isn’t just noticed when they are young pups)
Broken teeth and dental disease is a source of chronic pain in pets and they just don’t show the signs of it. Teeth are a fair bit of surgical work to remove, especially canines and molars, they take quite a long time therefore they cost a fair bit.
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Redders
Well-Known Member
I’m wasting my time here because clearly people feel that vets are money grabbing, and I can’t be bothered anymore to try to change that perception. There are always bad apples, they should be reported and dealt with. There are always vets who know more about certain conditions than others.
the vast majority are doing our best in the face of some pretty harsh critiquing that isn’t deserved
the vast majority are doing our best in the face of some pretty harsh critiquing that isn’t deserved
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Well you have just put me off insurance even more than I was before! How can they refuse to pay for pain relief?
nagblagger
Mildred's Maid
Now i must commend my vets, i have a brilliant relationship with both my small and equine vets, have sensible discussions about treatment and even have their mobile numbers. I have never been asked about insurance up front, it is discussed as and when required, which i think is the right time, as mentioned above. I have been with them for over 30 years. (poor sods putting up with me that long!)
I have only had one experience in over 40 years of animal owning where a vet put insurance/money before the well being of an animal - he soon learnt he could not bully/intimidate me into investigating a chronic renal problem in a dying, very elderly cat, it was my sisters practice which she then left.
I have only had one experience in over 40 years of animal owning where a vet put insurance/money before the well being of an animal - he soon learnt he could not bully/intimidate me into investigating a chronic renal problem in a dying, very elderly cat, it was my sisters practice which she then left.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I have had that with a human dentist! 20 yrs later the tooth is still in situ and perfectly fine.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I certainly don’t x
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I recently (last July) had a dog with a major emergency dental issue requiring two GA's, wiring/wire removal, molar extraction, AB's, pain relief, etc., etc. Total cost: €328 and I have no insurance. The small animal vet practice that I use is fairly large, modern, competent, well equipped. I've used them for over 15 years. I wonder why there is so much disparity in costs between fees in the UK and European* vets?
*Spanish vets charge roughly the same as Irish ones.
*Spanish vets charge roughly the same as Irish ones.
Redders
Well-Known Member
I don’t know PaS, I find it pretty distressing that they do! It’s quite a regular thing with some companies sadly. They try what they can to shave off what they (normally admin staff not medically trained) to reduce their bill, that can be stuff like hospitalisation fees if a pet is kept in over night (err, because they had been in a RTA and needed stabilising and urgent investigating for life saving treatment), pain relief after an operation, blood tests to find a cause rather than knowing it’s for kidneys (you wouldn’t know without the actual bloods)
It takes a fair bit of my day rebuffing the insurance companies to ensure what’s needed is covered!
Redders
Well-Known Member
Sorry edit: not all people on here, just many people in general public life
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Please don't take the implied criticism to heart Redders, I know the vast majority of vets are all in it for the animals (I have several close friends who are vets, and family members too).