New puppy will need surgery - where do we stand with the breeder?

AdorableAlice said:
You haven't got a good case for mis selling as the breeder has offered mediation. You mention the breeder is prolific, assuming you did check the breeder is licensed before buying the puppy, you now need to contact the licensing authority and make a formal complaint to enable them to investigate all aspects with the potential to reduce the level of licence the breeder holds.
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Which is pretty unfair when
A. Presumably the OP was entirely happy with the breeder when she did her pre purchase investigation and
B. The breeder has offered repair or replace both of which OP has declined.
As I see it OP wants to keep the pup, get £600 gifted to her and ruin the breeders business.
 
Clodagh said:
Which is pretty unfair when
A. Presumably the OP was entirely happy with the breeder when she did her pre purchase investigation and
B. The breeder has offered repair or replace both of which OP has declined.
As I see it OP wants to keep the pup, get £600 gifted to her and ruin the breeders business.
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The purchaser hasn’t, as far as I can see confirmed the breeder is licensed and if that is the case, the breeder needs exposing and bringing into the very legislation that is in place to protect both animal and purchaser of puppies. The breeder is trading illegally if they are breeding, advertising and selling.
 
I think as you accepted pup with a hernia a collection - very underhand to not tell you until you were collecting mind - I would take whatever contribution towards surgery and go with that..
 
SusieT said:
How much would you consider reasonable taking into account vets, nurses time, equipment? Why is it 'extortionate'?
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I had a pup with a hernia operated on about 3 years ago, the vet charged me €210. But this is not the UK and vets do not charge nearly as much for routine procedures here. The breeder's own vet quoted considerably less than £600, that would make it an extortionate charge.
 
Even though I still think her initial behaviour was rubbish & unprofessional as she will definitely have known about the hernia when she sent you the text saying there was nothing wrong with puppy & it is not ok to only disclose an issue AFTER you've taken payment unfortunately I think by offering to exchange for a different puppy or offer a contribution if done by her vet she probably has fulfilled her legal obligations. I can absolutely see why neither of those options are acceptable to you if you've bonded with this puppy & of course no sane person is going to take time off work & drive an 8 hr round trip for the sake of a few hundred quid. (Which taking cost of petrol into account you'd probably end up saving next to nothing). However I would take the suggestion of the other posters on here & see if her sending you half of what her own vet has estimated & you using this towards having your vet do the op would be a possibility. If so it's probably the best offer you'll get from her if you want to keep this puppy so would advise you to take it. She will almost certainly be getting some kind of discount from her vets or if she isn't then it may be she uses them specifically for their lower than average prices.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The purchaser hasn’t, as far as I can see confirmed the breeder is licensed and if that is the case, the breeder needs exposing and bringing into the very legislation that is in place to protect both animal and purchaser of puppies. The breeder is trading illegally if they are breeding, advertising and selling.
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She did.

"For context he is a rare breed, she’s a KC assured breeder and active in one of the breed societies."

The OP is seeking to damage her totally legitimate business and her reputation.
.
 
ycbm said:
She did.

"For context he is a rare breed, she’s a KC assured breeder and active in one of the breed societies."

The OP is seeking to damage her totally legitimate business and her reputation.
.
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To be fair the breeder has risked damaging her own reputation by assuring the OP in writing, that the pup was fine, when in fact it wasn't. I am most unlikely to want to buy a pup of this breed but if I did I would want to avoid this breeder and would pm the OP for the name.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The purchaser hasn’t, as far as I can see confirmed the breeder is licensed and if that is the case, the breeder needs exposing and bringing into the very legislation that is in place to protect both animal and purchaser of puppies. The breeder is trading illegally if they are breeding, advertising and selling.
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If the breeder has bred more than one litter and is a KC assured breeder then she will have a licence .
 
Pearlsasinger said:
To be fair the breeder has risked damaging her own reputation by assuring the OP in writing, that the pup was fine, when in fact it wasn't. I am most unlikely to want to buy a pup of this breed but if I did I would want to avoid this breeder and would pm the OP for the name.
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I do agree that the seller should have been more open. But if the hernia wasn’t visible when OP first met the litter perhaps it is getting worse as he grows.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
To be fair the breeder has risked damaging her own reputation by assuring the OP in writing, that the pup was fine, when in fact it wasn't. I am most unlikely to want to buy a pup of this breed but if I did I would want to avoid this breeder and would pm the OP for the name.
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Fully agree she's been morally dubious with selling this pup.
.
 
ycbm said:
She did.

"For context he is a rare breed, she’s a KC assured breeder and active in one of the breed societies."

The OP is seeking to damage her totally legitimate business and her reputation.
.
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KC assured is not a licence and is meaningless. It is the DEFRA licence that will give protection to both parties and the animals.
 
AdorableAlice said:
KC assured is not a licence and is meaningless. It is the DEFRA licence that will give protection to both parties and the animals.
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I agree re KC assured being meaningless . But the Defra licence has caused huge issues for many decent hobby breeders , yet puppy farmers get them with no problem. The OP has stated a few pages back that breeder is licensed .
 
Pearlsasinger said:
But the vet identified it before the breeder wrote to OP that all was well. Would you want to buy a a pup from a breeder who does that?
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why weren't questions asked when the breeder pointed out the hernia when the pup was collected? OP could at that stage have refused it before getting attached, asked for another, said that they didn't intend to castrate so the operation and it's full cost would be required full stop. Therefore negotiate a reduction in the sale price to take that into account.

It seems that breeder may well have tried to pull a fast one but OP didn't take enough care in considering the info at the last moment that there was a hernia. The breeder has now fully covered her tracks and has come up with solutions.

I can appreciate how annoyed OP is now reflecting on the situation but she had been given choices and I cannot see any way she can take this any further forward. It is a case of just swallowing her annoyance, getting the pup operated and trying to get the money the breeder had offered for their own vet.

We do seem to have a difference in vet views about the hernia. One doesn't seem to have spoken to the other and much of this seems to be down to a difference of professional opinions.
 
OP has already said pick up day was chaotic. I drove a long way to get my female on a day that about six of ten pups were being collected and it was bedlam...you're never going to have a normal, measured, quiet conversation about anything important, even if they're the most amazing breeders in the world. I arrived early as I also wanted to do a quick second assessment (I had pick of females) but collars had come off.
The dog I thought was the one I wanted was confirmed by chip and the collar colour was in the vaccination card. But it was all very fraught.

It doesn't help the OP but there's some learning here if you are doing a long drive and even if the puppy is much longed for...a dog is meant to be a part of your life with minimal health problems for a decade or more, a customer is entitled to walk away. Ask questions, ask for videos, be annoying. A good breeder won't mind.
People drive for days to do a mating and find out the female isn't ready or for a competition and the dog is lame, you don't just go ahead with it anyway.

I'm not a monster, my oldest was one someone didn't want, my second was given to me and I probably wouldn't be so attached to the youngest if she wasn't by my own dog, but when it's a long term commitment/investment/potential family member, it's good to keep your wits about you.
I don't generally do puppies for this reason...I have no idea if an eight week old puppy is going to be the right fit for me in 18-24 months time.
Some people assess to death and still pick one that has issues which develop in later life, others take what they're given and it's put in a car or plane or boat unseen in person and get a fabulous dog.

And always get some proof of ownership.
 
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I’d say the hernia should have been noted by the vet on the chip paperwork-maybe it’s different for non-docked breeds, but on our puppies’ paperwork (docking and microchip certicates), there was a note re Goose having a slight heart murmur (hence why he was available). It had disappeared by the time we got him, had an interesting chat with the (different) vet about it on Saturday. So the breeder will have known about it early on and should-imo-have dropped the purchase price to cover a future op.
 
Cinnamontoast said:
I’d say the hernia should have been noted by the vet on the chip paperwork-maybe it’s different for non-docked breeds, but on our puppies’ paperwork (docking and microchip certicates), there was a note re Goose having a slight heart murmur (hence why he was available). It had disappeared by the time we got him, had an interesting chat with the (different) vet about it on Saturday. So the breeder will have known about it early on and should-imo-have dropped the purchase price to cover a future op.
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I do agree with this. I feel from what we know that she rather tried it on but then did try to put it right. Who knows.
Like I said when we chose Ffee the breeder immediately pointed out the hernia in the other bitch pup that was available.
 
I know nothing about breeding dogs but is it possible an experienced breeder, told by a trusted vet that an otherwise healthy puppy had a small hernia that was easily remedied, just didn't consider it worth talking over with the buyer prior to collection? She wasn't bothered, genuinely, not because she didn't care, didn't occur to her that the OP would have a vet who thought it far more serious?
 
millikins said:
I know nothing about breeding dogs but is it possible an experienced breeder, told by a trusted vet that an otherwise healthy puppy had a small hernia that was easily remedied, just didn't consider it worth talking over with the buyer prior to collection? She wasn't bothered, genuinely, not because she didn't care, didn't occur to her that the OP would have a vet who thought it far more serious?
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if my vet had told me a pup had a hernia , but it wasn’t serious , I would pass this information on to the prospective new owner and be shocked if another vet said differently. This breeder should have told the OP immediately rather than wait till a busy collection day , other than that I think her response has been reasonable.
 
I think buying any small fluffy is emotive, it's really hard to be objective, I like to think I am buying an object, until I get it home. Any imperfection should carry a discount, especially a medical one.
My daughter was recently sold a misdescribed older dog, on reflection she says the day she picked him up she had some doubts at the back of her mind. It's already cost her £1000, but the emotional stress as been huge, and I have ended up fostering him, and I am trying to rehome him.
All I can say, is you have to buy any animal like you would buy a pot or a pan, because under the SOG Act, that is what it is. Nothing is perfect, but you must not be buying in to a dream and not really seeing or paying full attention to what you are told, check paperwork, take someone who is not emotionally invested in the purchase, just so there is a brake on your desire.
My daughter had seen me buy horses over the years, she works with people, so she thought she could spot a tale that didn't add up. Its an eighteen month old dog, that has already had a litter of puppies, it was not as described a family pet that lived in a house. It's buyer beware not just for legal but emotional reasons, because feeling that you have failed an animal, or have been taken for a fool, lasts longer than walking away.
 
I really feel for the OP! A chaotic pick up day and being given that information after you have just paid is not acceptable! Especially from a KC assured breeder which tbh means nothing. In the heat of the moment it is hard to be rational and it feels as if the breeder played on this.

I went to view a pup 2 weeks ago, asked the right questions, checked the in breeding co efficient drove all the way to view. When turning the puppy over I was told oh by the way she has a hernia. It's nothing. Had she told me beforehand I would have spoken to my vet or not even gone to view! I did call my vet but with the vendor there it wasn't easy, and I have had no previous experience of hernias. In the end I walked away but did say to her I wish you had told me before I came! I wonder if I hadn't turned the pup over whether she would have even told me.

Having also received nasty messages from another seller because I asked questions as she was 3 hours away I am feeling rather disillusioned. Buying puppies, like horses, is not as easy as it was sadly.
 
Cortez said:
I had a pup with a hernia operated on about 3 years ago, the vet charged me €210. But this is not the UK and vets do not charge nearly as much for routine procedures here. The breeder's own vet quoted considerably less than £600, that would make it an extortionate charge.
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Charging 210- do you think they made any profit off that? 3 years ago- you'd expect it to be more now? Do you know it was a directly comparable hernia?
So one vet being cheaper- of unknown facility/experience makes the more expensive vet extortionate?
Have you compared their services like for like?
 
SusieT said:
Charging 210- do you think they made any profit off that? 3 years ago- you'd expect it to be more now? Do you know it was a directly comparable hernia?
So one vet being cheaper- of unknown facility/experience makes the more expensive vet extortionate?
Have you compared their services like for like?
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Now why would I do any of that? I am answering your query: veterinary charges are generally far less expensive in Ireland and while it’s likely that overheads are lower here, I am inclined to think that UK vets are charging what they think the market can bear. Your questioning is extremely aggressive; what’s your problem?
 
AdorableAlice said:
The purchaser hasn’t, as far as I can see confirmed the breeder is licensed and if that is the case, the breeder needs exposing and bringing into the very legislation that is in place to protect both animal and purchaser of puppies. The breeder is trading illegally if they are breeding, advertising and selling.
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They dont necessarily need a licence, depending on the area where they live and how many litters they breed.
In my area, if you breed more than 3 litters a year you need a licence.
Some of the best breeders are not licenced as they only breed one or two litters a year.
 
Cortez said:
Now why would I do any of that? I am answering your query: veterinary charges are generally far less expensive in Ireland and while it’s likely that overheads are lower here, I am inclined to think that UK vets are charging what they think the market can bear. Your questioning is extremely aggressive; what’s your problem?
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I think in fact over here (England etc) they are charging however much they think the insurance will pay out and heaven help those who don't have insurance.
 
paddy555 said:
I think in fact over here (England etc) they are charging however much they think the insurance will pay out and heaven help those who don't have insurance.
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I don't think so, I think they charge what they need to cover their costs and make a profit. You can ask for an estimate, I do and shop around. I do not have insurance.
 
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