New RVC research debunks belief that designer crossbreed dogs are healthier than purebreds
- Thread starter skinnydipper
- Start date
Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
I would think the problem with most 'designer crossbreeds' is that the proper health checks aren't done on the parents. Too many are just churned out because there is a ready market for them with no thought to soundness of parents.
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the Victorians and Edwardians were pretty good when it came to selective breeding and improving the standard, whatever the animal. Today's designer breeds seem to favour appearance. Sign of the times?
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I think we all knew that on here but it’s the general public who need to see that.. apart from health issues with the poo crosses there seems to be a temperament problem with many of them round where I walk my dogs. Quite a few are dog aggressive and a couple of them seem to be petrified of everything. Whether it’s the breeding or caused by the people who own them I’m not sure, could be 50/50.
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
I'm not sure how long ago I started saying, and saw others saying the same here on HHO, that crossbreeds aren't healthier than the parent animals you use. But I know that e.g. back years ago when Optigen was sort of the main company offering the most health related gene tests for dogs, that I mentioned in more than one reply that Optigen had, as I remember it, like 5 things they could health test purebred Labradors for, but 8 things they could health test Labradoodles for.
It doesn't hurt to get more facts supporting what I already believed, it's just sad that many potential buyers of crossbreed puppies/dogs have for so many years ignored what for me seems like common sense. Even sadder is that I think that even research like this will probably only change a relatively small number of people's opinion.
malwhit
Well-Known Member
Dog shows and the Kennel Club are all about appearance, that's why some breeds are such a mess
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Designer breeds and crosses aren't able to be registered/shown, so not really the Kennel Club's fault this time.
Unfortunately the 'expose' against *some" pedigree dog breeding, whilst probably well meant, drove puppy purchasers into the arms of people doing similar, if not worse.
Unfortunately the 'expose' against *some" pedigree dog breeding, whilst probably well meant, drove puppy purchasers into the arms of people doing similar, if not worse.
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
I thought there was a thing called hybrid vigour? Or have so many crosses been bred they have lost the hybrid bit?
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
A dog mated with a wolf would produce a hybrid, a dog mated to a dog produces another dog.
If you cross an animal with a physical or mental health issue, to another animal, it doesn't magically make the issue disappear in the progeny.
Some issues can be bred out, but only if someone knows what they are doing and it can take generations, with some degree of wastage.
Mating one dog to another dog with dodgy health or temperament because they look nice/to create sellable puppies, ain't it.
In numerically popular breeds, there's generally no shortage of healthy/tested dogs, so no need to do whacky experiments.
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
Hybrid vigour can also manifest itself in areas of temperament and mental stability as well as general health. Look at the XL Bully.....
Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
Hybrid vigour still exists but presumes the two strains being crossed have been bred sensibly for a lot of generations first, although having a fairly limited gene pool.
Suppose you breed from your pedigree dogs, within the breed over many generations, each time not re-breeding from the ones with defects. Over time the recessive genes turn up & are removed, because the limited gene pool means that at some stage a litter will have a harmful but recessive gene in both parents.* Your breeding stock will have some disadvantages of inbreeding but will have been "cleaned out" of a lot of inherited nasties.
Take two such animals that are not related and mate them you get a win-win of offspring that are not in-bred but have the cleaned effect - that is what's known as "hybrid vigour".(Nothing to do with inter-species hybrids. Same word different meanings. I didn't coin the phrase!) The resulting offspring will grow bigger, live longer, be healthier than either parent.
If you keep/sell/breed from all offspring in your original breed, regardless of defects, there is no benefit from crossing.
*A recessive gene is one that needs two copies present (one from each parent) before it has an effect. If there is only one copy it is invisible & you don't know it is being passed on.
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Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
Temperament (or bad temperament) is hereditary but also some crosses between nice tempered parents are not likely to work (or at least the result needs an experienced owner).
These traits are separate, inherited separately and can exist in any amount/combination :-
1)Ease of socialising
2)Having positive or negative defence reflex.
3)Intelligence and trainability.
Example 1- just about every Labrador you meet will be friendly. This is because they have a very low socialising requirement, so pretty much all the labs you meet will be well socialised, even if their owners weren't particularly sensible about it. Surprisingly labs mostly have a positive defence reflex, meaning if on the rare occasion something does scare them, they will be inclined to attack it, rather than back away.
Example 2- Border collies are about 50:50 in what their defence reflex is and all need a lot of socialising. Hence they are a marmite breed with people saying they had a lovely friendly one & the other half of people having a bad experience. Thankfully not many go to inexperienced homes & trainability means the grumpy ones can be taught to walk to heel, have a good recall etc.
So it's easy to see how if you make a cross based on looks or fashion you can quickly get in bother by making a puppy that has a positive defence reflex, a high requirement for socialising and low trainability and then marketing it to first time owners.
[Sorry , I usually stay off All About Dogs so I don't get boring!
]
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
So back to basics, screening any dog who is to be used for breeding and if puppy buyers want the best chance of a healthy dog, whatever the breed or x breed, they need to do their homework. Find out what health conditions the breed or breeds are predisposed to and ensure the parents, at least, have been screened.
Breeders wouldn't continue to produce puppies they couldn't sell.
Not all puppy buyers are as diligent as @SAujla in doing their research and some people might not even be aware that they need to.
Would-be puppy buyers need guidance. Who could do that and get the message out there, that you don't just buy any puppy, you look for one that is going to have the best chance of a healthy life.
It is disappointing that an organisation like the KC couldn't have done a better job but when you look at the state of some of the dogs they allow to be shown at Crufts, it is not really surprising.
Is it something APDAWG*, and the organisations who advise them, could turn their attention to and see if they can come up with something.
* APDAWG
| Title | All-Party Parliamentary Dog Advisory Welfare Group |
| Purpose | To help explore, highlight, discuss, educate, and challenge dog-related activities, legislation, campaigns, petitions, and trends; with the overall aim of improving the health and welfare of the UK's dogs, dog owners, human welfare, and our society in general. |
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SAujla
Well-Known Member
I think finding a good breeder first is something that occurrs to me in hindsight. I still regularly talk to my breeder. I was turned away from a few litters due to never having had a dog before. The more research I did the harder it was to find a litter I was happy with. For example once I knew what EIC was I then had to find a dog that's parents had been tested and cleared of it
Looking back I know I made so many mistakes with Clover but fortunately she's such a good girl and well bred that none have done her any harm.
Looking back I know I made so many mistakes with Clover but fortunately she's such a good girl and well bred that none have done her any harm.
maisie06
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, especially since the invention of social media, which IMHO has alot to answer for many things...
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
Thank you for this reply, which has certainly helped me understand the commonly used phrase much better
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
Temperament (or bad temperament) is hereditary but also some crosses between nice tempered parents are not likely to work (or at least the result needs an experienced owner).
These traits are separate, inherited separately and can exist in any amount/combination :-
1)Ease of socialising
2)Having positive or negative defence reflex.
3)Intelligence and trainability.
Example 1- just about every Labrador you meet will be friendly. This is because they have a very low socialising requirement, so pretty much all the labs you meet will be well socialised, even if their owners weren't particularly sensible about it. Surprisingly labs mostly have a positive defence reflex, meaning if on the rare occasion something does scare them, they will be inclined to attack it, rather than back away.
Example 2- Border collies are about 50:50 in what their defence reflex is and all need a lot of socialising. Hence they are a marmite breed with people saying they had a lovely friendly one & the other half of people having a bad experience. Thankfully not many go to inexperienced homes & trainability means the grumpy ones can be taught to walk to heel, have a good recall etc.
So it's easy to see how if you make a cross based on looks or fashion you can quickly get in bother by making a puppy that has a positive defence reflex, a high requirement for socialising and low trainability and then marketing it to first time owners.
[Sorry , I usually stay off All About Dogs so I don't get boring!
Very interesting. What is your opinion on GSD’s in terms of defence reflex and socialising requirements ? I have one and he was kennelled until age 5 months. He is 5 now and I think we have cleared most behavioural hurdles. But I should be interested to know.
Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
All the guarding breeds score high for positive defence reflex, wouldn't have been much use historically otherwise , it was deliberately bred in. GSDs need above average amounts of socialising, about the same as a collie I believe. (Collies are more my thing, I came to this by the side door, via sheep!)
Well done for sorting him out.
Well done for sorting him out.
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Luckily he does have a lovely temperament and we managed to get there with the socialising, even though it took place so late in his development. It took a while! I always had collies before, interesting to compare the two breeds.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I wonder if thats why my younger whippet is huge. His mum is small and working lines and dad is KC show lines so in terms of whippets quite a big difference. All the litter are bigger than I would have expected.
Your second post just confirms what I say a lot, people need nice easy going dogs. I make mistakes with mine, but they are both so placid I get away with it. I wonder where whippets come on the defence reflex. One of mine is so placid you could poke him in the eye and he wouldn't even blink, the other is a bit more sharp, but totally non reactive as well.
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Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
Maybe Whippets work on the principle of 'can it catch me?' before they go teasing another dog. Mine certainly did!
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Its why I have 2. The noise and violence of playtime is very disconcerting for anyone who doesn't know its a game, and while neither of mine want to play with other dogs anymore when the youngest was still a puppy he totally worked on that principle
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
My dogs usually want to beat Rew (@Spotherisk ) whippety thing up when they first meet him. Because he wants them to chase him he is super annoying until they do. Luckily they are learning just to ignore him and he’ll eventually just does zoomies on his own.Its why I have 2. The noise and violence of playtime is very disconcerting for anyone who doesn't know its a game, and while neither of mine want to play with other dogs anymore when the youngest was still a puppy he totally worked on that principle
Katieg123
Well-Known Member
I only have one cross bred dog (both parents were pure bred). His mom had epilepsy and his dad had skin allergies. My dog has both skin allergies and epilepsy 
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I put a stop to it sharpish but the youngests favourite game for a while when he was a hideous adolescent was fly bys wth dogs he thought might be iffy enough to chase him. It involved him flying up behind them, slowing long enough to get their attention and/or steal their ball or similar then accelerating away. He knew fine well they would never in a million years catch him so he couldn't have cared less if they wanted to kill him or not. He doesn't play with other dogs very often now, but when he does, he's very good at slowing enough to let them think they might catch him, then accelerating away and repeat. Most dogs get bored very quickly and he's just not that bothered about engaging anymore, he has his older brother to play with, and he's a sucker for being enticed into a game whether he wants to or not
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Dog shows and the Kennel Club are all about appearance, that's why some breeds are such a mess
I thought anybody who didn't see Pedigree Dogs Exposed at the time might be interested in watching. Prepare to be horrified by it.
Pedigree Dogs Exposed
Pedigree dogs are suffering from genetic diseases following years of inbreeding, an investigation has found.A BBC documentary says they are suffering acute problems because looks are emphasised...
documentaryheaven.com
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Nope, Arr Jemima unwittingly (?) sent droves of people into the willing arms of puppy farmers and backyard breeders. This take ain't it. She didn't help at all and I will stand by that opinion until my dying day.
Some people hook onto a cause with the best will in the world, become radicalised and will never admit that they're wrong.
Some people hook onto a cause with the best will in the world, become radicalised and will never admit that they're wrong.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
This. Yes some bad breeding practices were exposed, but this programme created the market for designer breeds and all the issues they have brought to dogs.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
In my humble opinion breeding from dogs with known genetic/hereditary disorders whether they have won awards at Crufts or not, is not okay.
Why would people do that? Are people completely stupid? Why not look for breeders who health test their breeding stock and who don't breed from dogs with known health conditions?
Years ago when I was out with my dogs I used to meet a GSD breeder, she health tested her breeding stock (and still does). At the time I knew her she imported a stud dog from Germany, health tested and with Schutzhund qualifications. She told me that she knew GSD breeders who were breeding from dogs with epilepsy. At the time I had a dog who suffered from grand mal epilepsy, a mutt not a GSD, and I can tell you I was appalled to know that anyone would deliberately breed from dogs that they knew had epilepsy.
You could run rings round me when it comes to breeding and health tests but I will stick to my simplistic view that it is morally wrong to breed from dogs who are known to have or be carriers of genetic/hereditary disorders.
I had a dog, not a GSD, who was one of 28 removed from a breeder due to the appalling condition of them and their environment. She won awards at Crufts. He was pts due to degenerative myelopathy. I am pleased that there is now genetic testing for DM and if I was buying a breed known to be affected by degenerative myelopathy I would buy from a breeder who tested for this condition.
I think it goes without saying that if I ever bought puppy I would buy from a breeder who carried out breed specific health tests, I couldn't go through the heartbreak of having another dog with hip and elbow dysplasia (he was not bought as a puppy by me).
Anyway, if it's not going to drive more stupid people into the arms of puppy farmers and backyard breeders, I would recommend people watch the programme and form their own opinion.
Why would people do that? Are people completely stupid? Why not look for breeders who health test their breeding stock and who don't breed from dogs with known health conditions?
Years ago when I was out with my dogs I used to meet a GSD breeder, she health tested her breeding stock (and still does). At the time I knew her she imported a stud dog from Germany, health tested and with Schutzhund qualifications. She told me that she knew GSD breeders who were breeding from dogs with epilepsy. At the time I had a dog who suffered from grand mal epilepsy, a mutt not a GSD, and I can tell you I was appalled to know that anyone would deliberately breed from dogs that they knew had epilepsy.
You could run rings round me when it comes to breeding and health tests but I will stick to my simplistic view that it is morally wrong to breed from dogs who are known to have or be carriers of genetic/hereditary disorders.
I had a dog, not a GSD, who was one of 28 removed from a breeder due to the appalling condition of them and their environment. She won awards at Crufts. He was pts due to degenerative myelopathy. I am pleased that there is now genetic testing for DM and if I was buying a breed known to be affected by degenerative myelopathy I would buy from a breeder who tested for this condition.
I think it goes without saying that if I ever bought puppy I would buy from a breeder who carried out breed specific health tests, I couldn't go through the heartbreak of having another dog with hip and elbow dysplasia (he was not bought as a puppy by me).
Anyway, if it's not going to drive more stupid people into the arms of puppy farmers and backyard breeders, I would recommend people watch the programme and form their own opinion.
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MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Absolutely agree with you about breeding from dogs with epilepsy and other inherited conditions . The KC could stop this but don’t. But there is no doubt that a lot of people started avoiding pedigree dogs after the programme , then bought crosses where neither parent was tested . The test for DM is big step forward but just be aware it only tests for one gene that can cause the disease , so it is not a guarantee a dog won’t suffer from this horrible condition.