New RVC research debunks belief that designer crossbreed dogs are healthier than purebreds

[poiuytrewq]

I’m always a bit embarrassed to admit to Cecil’s breeding because he is “designer”
When I’m asked what he is I say terrier and only admit further when pushed
I bought him because I liked him and the mating was genuinely accidental and a one off.
Luckily for me he is healthy as were his parents but obviously there were no health checks other than the fact he was taken to the vets to be checked and jabbed and chipped before I bought him home.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I’m always a bit embarrassed to admit to Cecil’s breeding because he is “designer”
When I’m asked what he is I say terrier and only admit further when pushed
I bought him because I liked him and the mating was genuinely accidental and a one off.
Luckily for me he is healthy as were his parents but obviously there were no health checks other than the fact he was taken to the vets to be checked and jabbed and chipped before I bought him home.

To me if it was a genuine accidental mating ,and the pups haven’t been given a daft name then he isn’t designer breed he’s just a cross , nowt wrong with that . Designer breeds are when litters are deliberately bred with no thought to health , and sold for stupid money .

 

[poiuytrewq]

To me if it was a genuine accidental mating ,and the pups haven’t been given a daft name then he isn’t designer breed he’s just a cross , nowt wrong with that . Designer breeds are when litters are deliberately bred with no thought to health , and sold for stupid money .

Yes I get that. I just get a bit that people
Think I went looking for it or that his mums owner did it to cash in!
He’s my little mutt!

His X has a name, two I believe but I never use it!!

 

[CorvusCorax]

In my humble opinion breeding from dogs with known genetic/hereditary disorders whether they have won awards at Crufts or not, is not okay.



Why would people do that? Are people completely stupid? Why not look for breeders who health test their breeding stock and who don't breed from dogs with known health conditions?

Years ago when I was out with my dogs I used to meet a GSD breeder, she health tested her breeding stock (and still does). At the time I knew her she imported a stud dog from Germany, health tested and with Schutzhund qualifications. She told me that she knew GSD breeders who were breeding from dogs with epilepsy. At the time I had a dog who suffered from grand mal epilepsy, a mutt not a GSD, and I can tell you I was appalled to know that anyone would deliberately breed from dogs that they knew had epilepsy.

You could run rings round me when it comes to breeding and health tests but I will stick to my simplistic view that it is morally wrong to breed from dogs who are known to have or be carriers of genetic/hereditary disorders.

I had a dog, not a GSD, who was one of 28 removed from a breeder due to the appalling condition of them and their environment. She won awards at Crufts. He was pts due to degenerative myelopathy. I am pleased that there is now genetic testing for DM and if I was buying a breed known to be affected by degenerative myelopathy I would buy from a breeder who tested for this condition.

I think it goes without saying that if I ever bought puppy I would buy from a breeder who carried out breed specific health tests, I couldn't go through the heartbreak of having another dog with hip and elbow dysplasia (he was not bought as a puppy by me).

Anyway, if it's not going to drive more stupid people into the arms of puppy farmers and backyard breeders, I would recommend people watch the programme and form their own opinion.

It's my experience. You only have to see how many 'hybrid vigour' and 'crossbreeds are healthier' posts there are on here.

Crufts is a bit of a red herring. It's just a dog show and happens to be on TV/is one that lots of people know. It's not an event that a lot of people would use as a benchmark for the best of their breed.

The majority of GSD breeders producing epilepsy are the 'straight backed/old fashioned' brigade.
The one dodgy known line in Germany literally comes from an English dog.

Jemima used a GSD as a bad example on her show that was imported from Germany, health tested, then-Schutzhund tested. That dog lived to a ripe old age and was being shown in Veteran when it was filmed. I'd have ten dogs like that before I'd have any being sold as 'straight backed/old fashioned'

Is there anywhere ever on HHO that I HAVEN'T dinged on in an annoying fashion about multi-gerational health testing?
That does not mean I agree with Jemima Harrison. She did absolutely nothing good for the German Shepherd Dog. I'm a GSD geek and I won't blow smoke up her backside but MM and her late mother's experience knock anything I have ever done into a cocked hat, and she is saying the same thing.

If we can agree that yer man with the cravat can cut corners to make an entertainment programme involving dogs with lots of foundation missing, but plenty of sound bites for the masses, then we can agree he might not be alone on that, surely....

 

[skinnydipper]

I'm a GSD geek and I won't blow smoke up her backside but MM and her late mother's experience knock anything I have ever done into a cocked hat, and she is saying the same thing.

Yes, if I was going to buy a GSD pup I would be asking the experts on the forum for advice .

But to me the programme was about so much more than one dog in a show ring.

Ridgeback puppies culled because they were normal, because they didn't have the spinal abnormality that causes the ridge.

Dogs with screw tails, another spinal abnormality.

Dogs with skulls too small for their brains.

Dogs who couldn't breathe effectively without surgery.

Dogs bred to have excessive skin folds that need cleaning every day to try and prevent chronic infection.

Somebody said upthread about the Victorians and Edwardians being pretty good when it came to selective breeding when in fact that's when the whole dog fancy caper kicked off big time and the start of dogs being bred for fashion over function.

Somebody needed to to draw attention to what was going on, and she did but there is no turning the clock back to protodogs and wolves.

There are good breeders, but people also need to know who and what to avoid.

What hope is there for the long term, as long as people are happy to buy dogs who are unable to breathe and walk simultaneously?

People really need to give their heads a shake.

Cats unfortunately are going the same way, the poor little naked sphynx, the munchkin, the Persian who now looks as if its face has been hit by a shovel, the bullycat.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep and I don't know so much about those breeds, those who do can comment can do so.

She could have done so much good and promoted people doing the right thing, but not a lot of people seemed to have derived any nuance from the programme, just 'Show Breeders Bad, Crossbreeds Good'.

I think it's true in a lot of other breeds, but health testing in GSDs has been historically breeder/breed club driven/led. And those are the people who work and show their dogs.
Even in those who have stuck to a breed, we see loads of people have bought what they think is a 'working bred' dog (not just GSDs), when it's just a dog of a certain shape/not standard, of indeterminate pet breeding, with no health tests on the parents.

I do agree it's a bigger issue than showing, but maybe on a different angle.
Dog showing for many breeds, in many countries, is a dying hobby. All breed kennel clubs are very slow at implementing compulsory health measures, I agree - but with no standard to level against, I don't think that losing showing will improve dog health at all.
You only have to look at (some of!) the specimens at (some!) non kennel club (uncapitalised as it applies to a few countries) shows.

I see very few 'show quality' dogs in the vet waiting area, and I really doubt people went out and bought dogs because they saw a cool one at a dog show.
Facebook, Insta and that weird Peaky Blinders fascination that some people have, seems to be more of an influence on dog purchasing.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Yes, if I was going to buy a GSD pup I would be asking the experts on the forum for advice .

But to me the programme was about so much more than one dog in a show ring.

Ridgeback puppies culled because they were normal, because they didn't have the spinal abnormality that causes the ridge.

Dogs with screw tails, another spinal abnormality.

Dogs with skulls too small for their brains.

Dogs who couldn't breathe effectively without surgery.

Dogs bred to have excessive skin folds that need cleaning every day to try and prevent chronic infection.

Somebody said upthread about the Victorians and Edwardians being pretty good when it came to selective breeding when in fact that's when the whole dog fancy caper kicked off big time and the start of dogs being bred for fashion over function.

Somebody needed to to draw attention to what was going on, and she did but there is no turning the clock back to protodogs and wolves.

There are good breeders, but people also need to know who and what to avoid.

What hope is there for the long term, as long as people are happy to buy dogs who are unable to breathe and walk simultaneously?

People really need to give their heads a shake.

Cats unfortunately are going the same way, the poor little naked sphynx, the munchkin, the Persian who now looks as if its face has been hit by a shovel, the bullycat.

The people who are buying these animals are as big a problem as some of the breeders in my view. It is nearly 20 years since the Jemima Harrison programme and yet people are still buying puppies without research into the breed, the breeder, health tests etc.
I'm in a couple of GSD groups on FB and there are people constantly posting looking for help as their new dogs have health or temperament/behaviour problems . Invariably they have just bought through free ads or similar, parents have had no health tests and so called breeder isn't interested, a lot of pups don't even come with a diet sheet. This is despite the groups having pinned posts about what research to do, approved breeders etc.
It is so frustrating and tbh I am so fed up of it I often feel disinclined to even offer advice.

 

[I'm Dun]

why do some dogs have such huge health issues, in the case of GSDs/labs.spaniels enough of them work that you'd think it would have kept at least a couple of sound lines? I have no idea so genuinely asking. I know in whippets there's a big distinction between the KC registered show bred dogs, and the dogs bred to work and race. And there are an awful lot with a little sprinkling of something else in the mix, so not hybrid vigour, but certainly a large gene pool. I know there can be heart issues in the show dogs, but the working and race bred dogs don't seem to have genetic issues. Its unusual to see it in show dogs tbh. They look the same as they did in the 18th century.

I'm happy to buy a whippet from working/racing lines whose family are out performing and not worry about issues. I wouldn't in a million years buy a spaniel/lab/GSD etc without all the health tests. Why are there issues in some breeds not others? Is it just that idiot humans bred it in?

 

[CorvusCorax]

why do some dogs have such huge health issues, in the case of GSDs/labs.spaniels enough of them work that you'd think it would have kept at least a couple of sound lines?

They are numerically popular.

There are tonnes of sound lines.

 

[I'm Dun]

do less issues show up in the working lines?

 

[CorvusCorax]

do less issues show up in the working lines?

Not really.

 

[I'm Dun]

so in theory the issues could be bred out in a couple of generations then, unlikely I know, or would that reduce the gene pool too much

feel free to ignore me if I'm being annoying, I'm genuinely interested and trying to stop myself going down a google rabbit hole

 

[CorvusCorax]

so in theory the issues could be bred out in a couple of generations then, unlikely I know, or would that reduce the gene pool too much

feel free to ignore me if I'm being annoying, I'm genuinely interested and trying to stop myself going down a google rabbit hole

I mean, there are lots of lines which have no major issues, because of sensible breeding. It's a numerically large breed with lots of different branches.

People only hear the horror stories. Google is pretty crap these days, you'd be better speaking to real people.

 

[blackcob]

I have such conflicting thoughts on PDE. As already discussed it was the wrong approach; it majorly got the backs up of the show fraternity, sent everyone else on the designer crossbreed and backyard breeder merry go round we've been on since and appeared to do very little to stem the proliferation of brachycephalic dogs in the years that followed. Something needed to be said and done, though - the KC wasn't going to step up and risk alienating their income stream. Judges are still rewarding dogs in the show ring today for features that we know have deleterious effects on the health and welfare of dogs, and as long as they do so those features will be selected for and exaggerated.

 

[SkylarkAscending]

I ranted about “Pedigree Dogs Exposed” at the time, I really can’t be bothered to say it all again. As you all know, Mum was closely involved in one of the breeds mentioned and what was portrayed was not accurate. The programme did absolutely nothing to change anything in the pedigree dog world.

 

[blackcob]

And I say the above as someone who enjoys showing dogs and still thinks it's important for a breed (mostly - see an entry of six at a show with CCs this weekend just gone, as an illustration of how it's a dying hobby. Everyone knew where the ticket was going.)

FWIW buying a health tested GSD was easy as pie, for literally any dog in a pedigree I could access in a single search and click the test results, trial results and very often extensive videos of the dog working before I even spoke to a breeder. It's a culture that could do with being expanded to other breeds. The KC also needs to step up in this regard - I've said it before but there's two health tests on my dog that they won't record centrally, instead the breed club has to maintain their own database.

 

[SkylarkAscending]

I agree it’s a dying hobby and has been since Covid in my view - entries for cavaliers are ridiculously low now, and that’s not due to health issues

 

[WrongLeg]

I have such conflicting thoughts on PDE. As already discussed it was the wrong approach; it majorly got the backs up of the show fraternity, sent everyone else on the designer crossbreed and backyard breeder merry go round we've been on since and appeared to do very little to stem the proliferation of brachycephalic dogs in the years that followed. Something needed to be said and done, though - the KC wasn't going to step up and risk alienating their income stream. Judges are still rewarding dogs in the show ring today for features that we know have deleterious effects on the health and welfare of dogs, and as long as they do so those features will be selected for and exaggerated.

My family always had Pekingese as far back as my Grandmother in the 1930s.

I know nothing about Pedigree Breeding but can only observe that the dogs being bred looked nothing like the photos of my Grannie’s dog from the 20s and 30s; and they have health problems associated with exaggerated traits (nose, eyes, long back).

Increasingly they had health problems: back and eye issues in particular. We did not get another Pekingese due to the health issues in the breed.

Sadly we have not had another small dog since. We don’t want a terrier because they can be (terrors!) go down badger holes ect…and don’t know where to find a healthy small dog, with a good temperament.

As for the Labradors, Spaniels and Gun Dogs, we have had no problem because Gamekeepers breed working dogs without expensive health problems.

How do you explain this?

 

[CorvusCorax]

If a working dog can't work it gets removed from the gene pool one way or another. Some types of working dogs don't have particularly long careers either.

It used to be the same when a dog had a poor temperament but if it's a nice colour or a trendy type, it doesn't seem to matter any more.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I see very few 'show quality' dogs in the vet waiting area, and I really doubt people went out and bought dogs because they saw a cool one at a dog show.
Facebook, Insta and that weird Peaky Blinders fascination that some people have, seems to be more of an influence on dog purchasing.

Just remembering the reason I'm in GSDs is because my mother loved Champion the Wonder Horse, actually!!

 

[blackcob]

If we're doing anecdotes - I have a small pedigree dog of good temperament (don't laugh, those that know him!) that is the spit of dogs from the 20s and 30s; despite the best efforts of some show judges to reward imported dogs of completely different type, with too much bone, incorrect coats and movement, it is still possible to find moderate examples true to the UK breed standard, and judges that will put them up. But then I would never have chosen a breed with any degree of brachycephaly.

The worst hip x-rays I ever saw (we're talking jagged mess grating upon jagged mess, no semblance of normal anatomy) were in a heartbreakingly young working bred cocker spaniel, originating from what I understand to be famous lines. I will cede this discussion to the gundog people on here but my understanding, from friends who have sought working cockers for agility, is that the culture in many gundog circles still does not include health testing. And there's plenty of 'wastage' along the way...

It's not either/or, working good, show ring bad. I have both working bred and show bred dogs. Most people don't need or want a working bred dog as a pet. Everyone needs to step up and do their due diligence when breeding and buying. Point is that this distinction did not form part of PDE, resulting in the cockapoosplosion, and the KC have done and are doing very little to help.

 

[blackcob]

Just remembering the reason I'm in GSDs is because my mother loved Champion the Wonder Horse, actually!!

I think I read The Call of the Wild at an impressionable age.

 

[Kunoichi73]

Just remembering the reason I'm in GSDs is because my mother loved Champion the Wonder Horse, actually!!

That's brilliant!

I do find it interesting that the programme put so many people off buying a pedigree dog and drove them to the designer crosses. My reaction was that if I was to get another puppy, it would probably still be a pedigree but I would be doing everything possible to find a good breeder who did as many health checks as needed and included temperament as an important thing in the selection of dogs.

Nowadays I would also quiz the relevant people on HHO as an extra source.

It's ridiculous that the KC aren't much more rigorous in what they accept for registration and that they aren't dealing with the judging issues that allow obviously unhealthy, deformed animals to win shows.

 

[skinnydipper]

As for the Labradors, Spaniels and Gun Dogs, we have had no problem because Gamekeepers breed working dogs without expensive health problems.

I’m not convinced about that.

I know a family who bought a ‘gamekeeper bred’ lab puppy. She had bilateral elbow dysplasia, operated, lifetime on pain relief. Daughter bought her own place, and bought a puppy. ‘Gamekeeper bred’ lab puppy, lovely little chap. Elbow dysplasia. The last I knew was that he was awaiting surgery.

So I don’t think ‘gamekeeper bred’ is a guarantee of good health. And I don’t know why they were foolish enough to make the same mistake twice.

 

[ester]

My family always had Pekingese as far back as my Grandmother in the 1930s.

I know nothing about Pedigree Breeding but can only observe that the dogs being bred looked nothing like the photos of my Grannie’s dog from the 20s and 30s; and they have health problems associated with exaggerated traits (nose, eyes, long back).

Increasingly they had health problems: back and eye issues in particular. We did not get another Pekingese due to the health issues in the breed.

Sadly we have not had another small dog since. We don’t want a terrier because they can be (terrors!) go down badger holes ect…and don’t know where to find a healthy small dog, with a good temperament.

As for the Labradors, Spaniels and Gun Dogs, we have had no problem because Gamekeepers breed working dogs without expensive health problems.

How do you explain this?

The older pics/vids of peke’s look more like Tibetan spaniels than todays peke’s

 

[WrongLeg]

If we're doing anecdotes - I have a small pedigree dog of good temperament (don't laugh, those that know him!) that is the spit of dogs from the 20s and 30s; despite the best efforts of some show judges to reward imported dogs of completely different type, with too much bone, incorrect coats and movement, it is still possible to find moderate examples true to the UK breed standard, and judges that will put them up. But then I would never have chosen a breed with any degree of brachycephaly.

The worst hip x-rays I ever saw (we're talking jagged mess grating upon jagged mess, no semblance of normal anatomy) were in a heartbreakingly young working bred cocker spaniel, originating from what I understand to be famous lines. I will cede this discussion to the gundog people on here but my understanding, from friends who have sought working cockers for agility, is that the culture in many gundog circles still does not include health testing. And there's plenty of 'wastage' along the way...

It's not either/or, working good, show ring bad. I have both working bred and show bred dogs. Most people don't need or want a working bred dog as a pet. Everyone needs to step up and do their due diligence when breeding and buying. Point is that this distinction did not form part of PDE, resulting in the cockapoosplosion, and the KC have done and are doing very little to help.

Most of the people who Keep/ Grouse beat/ shoot around here train their Spaniels/ Labradors/ Pointers/ Setters as working dogs also keep them and sell them as family pets and companions at some stage in their life.
The main question about temperament is how ‘hot’ a Spaniel is: how trainable are they?
Every gamekeeper/ dog breeder I’ve come across does health checks before breeding. No professional wants to waste their time training a dog who cannot go on to do the job in hand.
Plenty of gamekeepers have their old dogs in the house with the kids looking after them. Being child friendly is a must.
Breeders tell me that being able to sell their puppies to a good home depends on taking their bitch to shoots so people can see them work.
I strongly doubt that anyone who breeds working dogs would be able to cover up health problems in the breeding line: it’s all word of mouth.

 

[skinnydipper]

Every gamekeeper/ dog breeder I’ve come across does health checks before breeding.

So it's usual for gamekeepers to carry out pre breeding health screening? It's a shame the people I know were unlucky in their choice of breeders.

ETA, I've just looked at 3 ads for gamekeeper bred lab pups, only 1 litter had health tested parents (hips & eyes)

 

[CorvusCorax]

Every gamekeeper/ dog breeder I’ve come across does health checks before breeding.

Great, does that include hips and elbow x-rays?

 

[WrongLeg]

Great, does that include hips and elbow x-rays?

For Labradors, yes. This is the only breed I have ever asked about.
They also charge £1200 for a puppy…
…for a trained dog they charge more than a broken-in pony.
You can see why there’s hardly anyone left breeding & breaking in Stag Ponies: it’s not worth it compared to Gundogs.

 

[WrongLeg]

So it's usual for gamekeepers to carry out pre breeding health screening? It's a shame the people I know were unlucky in their choice of breeders.

ETA, I've just looked at 3 ads for gamekeeper bred lab pups, only 1 litter had health tested parents (hips & eyes)

You have to ask yourself why are they advertising? Are they really Keepers/ Stalkers/ Ghillies?
Why would a professional who wants to train their pup as a Gundog buy without seeing how the bitch works?
It does not sound like they are actually selling a GunDog. I have done a days beating simply to find a good pup.
But then Gun Dogs are to The Cairngorms what Horses are to The Cotswolds. Here, the horse people are mostly amateurs but the dog owners are professionals.