New Saddle (Bought and Fitted by MS) Causing Back Pain

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JulesT

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I purchased a brand new saddle for my daughters pony from who we thought was a highly recommended MS. and it never 'fitted' quite right from day one, and they were advised of these faults. My daughter has always hated the saddle but was accepting of it as it was what we trusted fit the pony correctly (from the MS) and that matters most.

Numerous issues, such as sliding from side to side, slipping off pony when in process of tacking up/un tacking when pony breathed, saddle hitting my daughter's bum when jumping even small heights etc. It is a GP.

Tried different saddle cloths and girths to no avail.

Saddler suggested using a no-slip pad to help fix it but we dont want to 'fix' a new saddle that should have been fitted correctly from day one?

Lost faith in that saddler who sold and fitted this saddle and got another MS saddler to refit who changed the head plate and inserted another shim. Seemed to help a little bit and saddle more secure, no longer slipping off when standing still but still a little movement when riding on the flat.

But now the back rises off the ponies back a few inches when jumping as we found in an action shot over the weekend.
So apart from the saddle slapping my daughter, the saddle and my daughter are now contacting back on the pony.

The pony has been increasingly reluctant to work, been feeling 'off' for a fortnight, but we put it down to being ridden more and fitness levels a bit slow to catch up etc. But this weekend, we untacked and his back was extremely painful and sensitive under the whole panels of the saddle with even the slightest touch of our hand, so now know without a doubt the saddle panels are the cause of his reluctance and pain.

The saddle is 5 months old, purchased brand new.
What do we do now? Do we persevere with different fitter and keep saddle, go back to the original fitter, or deal direct with the manufacturer? Or involve trading standards or the Society of Master saddlers?

We do not want the saddle knowing the panels are the fault for causing the back pain but do we have any grounds to seek a refund for it to go buy a different make?


Hindsight is wonderful as we have found out in googleing issues with this saddle, and all seem to have said the same issues we have experienced. But we did trust the saddler and our pony has suffered as a result.
 
I had a very similar experience. My newly fitted brand new saddle wore a bald patch on my horses back, I contacted the saddler who came over and Made the gullet size smaller, this time while riding I could feel the saddle moving. Saddler stopped answering my calls and texts. I gave up and called another fitter, when he came out he looked at the saddle, looked at the horse, who still had a rug on and without even putting it on said......totally wrong saddle for the horse, it will pivot here and put his finger where the bald patch was. ( which he could not see)
I never put it back on him again and I just sold it as a nearly new saddle, took a hit but put it down to experience. My revenge every time I see that mans name mentioned I pm the person and tell them my story.
 
Was the person a registered saddle fitter or just an MS? Did the second person (again fitter or MS?) say they were making the best of a bad job?
 
Definitely sounds like the tree is too curvy which is very common with the synthetic trees in these changeable headplate saddles, they just don't work on many flat backs. You need to find out your rights and the best people is Trading Standards now run by the CAB. If you complained within 7 days of fitting then you should have a firm case. All saddles, to my knowledge, fitted away from the retailer's premises, are covered by regulations that gives you a 7 day trial and the right to return for a near-full refund. If they didn't give you written terms and conditions explaining those rights I believe they are at fault straight away.

The panel is rubbing, but it's always the panel that rubs, it's not necessarily the cause. The tree is pivoting in the middle as well as rocking, and to be told, if you were, that this is normal for wide and flat backs is NOT true. Tricky ponies deserve as good a fit as any other but they're not easy to fit, they need wooden trees which are not width adjustable, which not everyone is therefore keen on! The synthetic trees will "work" on some, but just aren't great on all shapes.

You don't have a contract with the manufacturer, though you may want to complain to them about the fitter. Unfortunately the industry is a little bit of a closed shop so I doubt they'll act against the fitter, and I have heard the same of the SMS. This is yet more proof that the "only ever use an SMS qualified fitter" advice isn't very useful! Also, the question as to whether they are a saddler or Qualified Saddle Fitter is relevant, but you can get bad fitting from either.
 
I have just had the same problems with my saddle being fitted by a MS, and has made it slip and lift up at the back, would be interested to see if it was the same person?! I didn't think saddle looked right to begin with but he insisted it fitted really nicely..
 
gemma I do think in those circumstances I would decline to be sold the saddle and find someone else, I'd want to be happy with it whatever they say.
 
Get those saddles returned within the legal period, saddles should not rock or slip! Email them to notify them in writing that you are investigating your legal rights with trading Standards, explain that the saddle is moving and that you are not happy, this MUST be done withint 7 days to be sure, unless as I say you have no Ts&Cs in which case you should find that they don't have a leg to stand on and must refund you even if beyond 7 days (not sure how far the law would extend that).
 
The saddle is now 5 months old, purchased brand new.
Issues from day one but perceived to be the saddle being new and not yet moulding / settling down.
Being told it was 3 inches to one side 4 weeks after purchase and notified the saddler immediately.
The company is registered with SMS and is on the website as approved.
They advised on getting a changeable head as the pony was going to change and develop with work (aged 5) over the coming year but the head does not change the panels. It is a Wintec Cair. (Yes, I now also know these were to be avoided, hindsight).

When the saddle was only used an hour or two a week in winter there was no pain noticed, but with sun and warmer weather the pony has been used almost daily over the Easter holidays and hence why the pain is so obvious. Had the pony been using the saddle that much from day one, we would have seen the same reaction of pain.
 
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Nothing wrong with a wintec or bates if fitted correctly, I have wintec Cair on my tb to my chunky appy who is in a wide. My saddler is only trained in wintec/bates Cair.

Op I would see if you can find a saddler that specialises in Cair then that will help.
 
I agree with Slightlyconfused, it's not a problem with wintec/bates as such but with the fitter. I would suggest you contact bates/wintec and ask them for a local recommended fitter. My two have both had wintec/bates saddles and were very happy with them (They changed shape significantly as they worked more). Would definitely recommend finding a wintec/bates fitter first. The posts you may have seen on-line are generally people who have had them fitted poorly or the older models that had a different panel set up.
 
Cair doesn't 'bed in' like flock so time wouldn't have helped. It does sound like the tree is likely too curvey, they aren't the only adjustable saddles out there so there are alternatives with different tree shapes. What did the second fitter think re. tree shape?

It isn't the company registering with SMS that is important, is the person that came registered as a fitter?

A user on here did manage to get a refund on a bates after a legal letter and 2 other registered fitters saying they would sign their names to it not, and would not ever have fitted.
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Nothing wrong with a wintec or bates if fitted correctly, I have wintec Cair on my tb to my chunky appy who is in a wide. My saddler is only trained in wintec/bates Cair.
Click to expand...

But on the wrong shapes thay are wrong. Personally I'm not a great fan of them at all, unlike some other Walsall type brands which have their place. They appear to work for some horses but for many they do not. Going for a changeable headplate saddle as a priority, as the OP was advised to do, can lead to the wrong priorities. Better to buy used and chop and change for a few months or even years. Wooden trees are flatter and more stable and generally more suited to ponies etc. The number of times I see the Bates pony, the Wintec wide or the TG/K&M cob recommended and when you see the photos of their horse in the saddle it's sat over the shoulder, or they admit it is a little unstable and needs girthing really tight....
 
This isn't directed at anyone on this thread.. after all I don't know any of you! But, I do have some sympathy for saddle fitters who painstakingly fit a saddle, watch it being ridden on, obviously know their job and then get a call to say the saddle doesn't fit. So many people these days are incapable of putting on a saddle correctly! They are usually perched on the shoulders but I have occasionally seen them too far back; or they take their perfectly fitted saddle and change all the dynamics by adding a thick numnah or a prolite-type pad! And, of course, it is always the saddlers fault. :(

Maybe the answer to this one lies in the hands of the saddle fitter who should observe the customer tacking up and then instruct them in the correct placement.
 
Just to be clear a Master Saddler is not the same as a Qualified Fitter. I'm an apprentice saddler when I qualify it will be in making bridles, harness and saddles but not fitting saddles, that's a different qualification. Master Saddlers may of course gain the Qualified Fitters qualification but don't have to.
 
Bates and Wintecs have rather upright rails through the middle which is what makes them fit curvier than you might think, I know a lot of people say the trees are fairly flat, but side to side across the twist they are not, and overall they're just not the flat, synthetic trees curve up when the seat is put on. They are also made on a production line obviously, and cost a lot to develop, so tend to be aimed at the mass market. When fitting very flat or very wide backs they're just not going to be right. Many of them have rather fat panels which can sit you up to 6" away from the horse too, these shapes of horse and pony need you to sit in close for stability, I would say the fittings I do have you about 3" away from the horse. I do think the Wide and Cob versions are seen as the "fit anything wide" type of saddle too often, and if the horse has some wither then "the regular version must fit, right?"!!

At a new saddle fitting there is a LOT to take in, I share a lot of information with my customers, much of it in writing, and am working on an email to send out afterwards to explain things like making sure the saddle is back off the shoulder blade. I've been called out to a remedial fitting with a vet present, the vet put the saddle on and even they put it at least 3" too far forwards, terrifying! Choice of girths straps, where there are 4 or 5, is also crucial and you will change the fit and placement of your saddle when you choose the wrong ones, my paperwork states which straps to use but you'd be amazed how many people never read it. We do try!
 
probably for the AUS market too which is probably lacking in native pony types ;).

Frank had a wintec on when we tried and vetted him. It bounced every stride of canter :eek3: I told my vet that the saddler was booked if he passed ;).
 
sbloom said:
But on the wrong shapes thay are wrong. Personally I'm not a great fan of them at all, unlike some other Walsall type brands which have their place. They appear to work for some horses but for many they do not. Going for a changeable headplate saddle as a priority, as the OP was advised to do, can lead to the wrong priorities. Better to buy used and chop and change for a few months or even years. Wooden trees are flatter and more stable and generally more suited to ponies etc. The number of times I see the Bates pony, the Wintec wide or the TG/K&M cob recommended and when you see the photos of their horse in the saddle it's sat over the shoulder, or they admit it is a little unstable and needs girthing really tight....
Click to expand...

I have two horses with wintec wides on. One has wither and a shoulder the other is a barrel. I have had no problems at all with either, they both have the same saddle (one each of course), I do not have to over tighten the girth to do up and the barrel horse has not had that saddle do anything people say they to on flat backed no withered, barrel type horses.

He has changed shape and my fitter came out today to check as I was feeling a little tipped forward, all he needed was a little lift in the front to even out the balance and it's back to being good no huge issue.

It really does tend to be the fitters who are not trained in these types of saddles by the company that have trouble fitting them. They can be adjusted anywhere not just the front gullet you just have to know how.
 
ester said:
Cair doesn't 'bed in' like flock so time wouldn't have helped. It does sound like the tree is likely too curvey, they aren't the only adjustable saddles out there so there are alternatives with different tree shapes. What did the second fitter think re. tree shape?

It isn't the company registering with SMS that is important, is the person that came registered as a fitter?

A user on here did manage to get a refund on a bates after a legal letter and 2 other registered fitters saying they would sign their names to it not, and would not ever have fitted.
Click to expand...

Do you have the link to that thread by any chance so I can read up on it?

Initially contacted Wintec after the fitting to ask for an approved fitter and they provided the information of the original fitter :/

Currently in contact with formal complaint to the original fitter, Wintec, Consumer Advice, Trading Standards, and Society of Master Saddlers.
Vet and physio reports being obtained.
Currently in process of obtaining alternate fitter reports for fitting.

Reading so many updates from people with back issues from the panels, they all seem to report the same, as if the pockets are pinching the skin when pressure is applied. As if you squeeze a balloon in the middle and the air is pushed to either side and there is a point in the middle which creates a sore point/pinch.
 
Ladyinred said:
This isn't directed at anyone on this thread.. after all I don't know any of you! But, I do have some sympathy for saddle fitters who painstakingly fit a saddle, watch it being ridden on, obviously know their job and then get a call to say the saddle doesn't fit. So many people these days are incapable of putting on a saddle correctly! They are usually perched on the shoulders but I have occasionally seen them too far back; or they take their perfectly fitted saddle and change all the dynamics by adding a thick numnah or a prolite-type pad! And, of course, it is always the saddlers fault. :(

Maybe the answer to this one lies in the hands of the saddle fitter who should observe the customer tacking up and then instruct them in the correct placement.
Click to expand...

When a saddle is fitted, I provide them with everything i use under the saddle and girths used to be used at time of fitting. Plus will then purchase whatever is needed on their advice at the time, if what i have is not suitable, such as in this case, a different girth.

There are very good and very bad saddle fitters out there as much as there are owners. If you do not complain about the bad service they are allowed to continue bad practice and cause more harm to more horses. Same goes for farriers.

I myself are more than capable of correctly tacking up in the correct position, and for measuring where the saddle should sit, what to use/not use underneath, etc.
Coming from an endurance background, with those distances it is crucial to ensure what we use is fitted correctly and for the good of the horse.
 
pansymouse said:
Just to be clear a Master Saddler is not the same as a Qualified Fitter. I'm an apprentice saddler when I qualify it will be in making bridles, harness and saddles but not fitting saddles, that's a different qualification. Master Saddlers may of course gain the Qualified Fitters qualification but don't have to.
Click to expand...

It was bought from a MS who is registered with the SMS and is also a qualified fitter.
 
The length of time taken to make the complaint may be an issue. http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nirel...hat_is_meant_by_goods_not_fit_for_purpose.htm

"If goods aren't fit for their normal purpose they aren't of satisfactory quality and you may have the right to return them to the seller and ask for a refund.

If something isn't fit to be used for a specific purpose agreed with the seller you may have the right to return it to the seller and claim a refund.

If you return the goods within a very short time of buying them you don't normally have to accept a repair or replacement instead of a refund, unless you want to.

If you've kept the goods for a while the law says you may have accepted the goods and have lost your right to a full refund. However, you should still have the right to get a repair or replacement."

In 5 months it cold be argued by the saddler that the saddle did fit, now the pony has changed shape and the saddle may no longer fit. By not complaining at the time, it makes it look like it was accepted that the saddle did fit. Unless you did of course complain at the time, which would support your case.
 
A qualified saddle fitter should be able to chalk out the horses back showing the points a saddle should and shouldn't touch to be honest a horse owner should be able to do this simple task or they should be a horse owner. And that's your starting point.
 
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