New to Horses and could do with some behavioural assistance

One final question.

If I am not feeding him hard food , how would I go about putting weight on him?

It was my understanding that hay has little benefit and his pasture is very thin on grass.

thanks
 
Glad you are not keeping him in, I can see where you were coming from though but just stick some barrier cream on and he will be better off out or he will internalise all that energy and it may turn into pent up nastiness! Being out with other horses will help keep him in check, they won't take any rude behaviour from him!

Brightbay on here sent me some great videos on clicker training, I am sure she would be able to advise you further as I have only dabbled in the early stages. Personally I think even if a horse is snatchy with food it can be trained to be polite but I did know one horse who was somewhat terrifying on the other side of a fence at feed time, so with him in mind I wouldn't like to say it would be suitable for yours if he can get defensive. If you can feed him a carrot from your hand and he is not bitey though it will probably work well.

With leading if he gets behind you he may not be being deliberately disrespectful, but I don't like it as if they choose to barge or get spooked you will get flattened! Plus he needs to walk at your shoulder quietly and nicely, walk and stop when you say so, anything outside of that should be corrected so he gets used to complying with fairly small things you ask of him.

Good luck with him, an instructor would definitely help and try to feed unmolassed forage/fibre based feed as in mostly hay :-)
 
A 4 year old horse is just hitting a stroppy teenage stage. Being a native pony he may continue to go through this stage until he is 6 or 7 :o His breed (welsh D) means he is likely to be intelligent, opinionated and strong willed, so I warn you you are likely to be in for a few challenged with this horse. I question slightly the advice you have been given to buy him, as a sufficiently knowledgeable horseperson should really have foreseen that young section d = not an ideal match for novice horse owners. Having said that I know a good few people who have been through the wars with young section Ds (me included) and most survive and there is no reason to believe that you won't be able to have a lovely mannered very loyal horse at the end of the day :)

I strongly recommend you get a good 'crew' to help you with this horse. It includes knowledgeable people who can teach you what is happening, why, and help you to overcome it. These people include an instructor who can also teach groundwork, your vet, farrier, dentist and others such as behavioural and feeding experts. I also recommend putting your horse on a livery yard rather than keeping him at home, no matter how nice it would be to keep horses at home it really is much better suited to experienced people. There are times when the support from the livery yard is invaluable. Did your daughter learn to ride at a riding school? If so would they have the pony on livery there?

I would redouble your efforts to find an instructor, I think that is the single most important thing you can do for your horse at the moment.

Best of luck, with the right help you WILL get there :)
 
Hi- hay is a good food and has benefit. Then all pony needs is a mineral supplement , and some chaff to put it in.
 
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Ad lib hay (that is all the hay they want to eat - so they never run out) seems to be enough for my 17hh irish x horse so I would have thought it should be enought for a native type. There are many more people on here with better feed knowledge than me but basically I think anything that doesn't have sugar in it. Look for the 'Laminitus Trust Approved' stick on the bags (their symbol is a picture of a hoof) as a guide.
Speedibeet is the one that I use as and when I need to.
Lots of people feed a multivitamin, lots of people don't - it is personal opinion.
 
This lady used to come out to me when I lived near Oswestry

www.annabrowndressageponies.co.uk

I cannot recommend her highly enough. She is a very quiet but very effective rider, with a lot of experience of bringing on ponies for children, she is an excellent teacher and has the facilities to take your pony for a couple of weeks intensive training if that is what is needed. I have recommended her to a couple of friends who have all been extremely happy with her and she has completely changed their relationships with their horses.
 
I could write a big long reply but it's easier to just say contact Jenni Nellist, who is in your area, and who will say everything I would write but will also be able to help you in person - and I really think you need a person there on the ground to give you advice and support.

You come across as a very sensible person and I am sure you and your daughter will sort this out very easily with a bit of help :)

www.jenninellist.co.uk
 
Just a thought - perhaps your local Pony Club (?South Shropshire?) or Riding Club could put you in touch with an instructor who would help after school. Best of luck with him :)
 
Boxcleva must say I'm really impressed with your attitude and approach to this situation and your daughters horse.

Some of the things you have put have really made me smile, I hope you keep us updated with how you get on and some photos as well :)
 
Hello, I just wanted to say a few things:

1) how nice to see someone really willing to learn :-) There are far too few people like that, novice or experienced

2) I agree he is probably testing his boundaries and firm handling will help - clicker training also did WONDERS with my welsh D, he is like a different animal, but you will hvae to be very careful with the food issue; could you practice on a dog (if you have one - or borrow one if not?). The timing is SO important so if you aren't sure and he is snappy it could make matters worse. Some clicker training trainers recommend trying it out on your children (or getting your children to try it on eachother ;-)) - even if they're 12 or so! Just to see how long it takes for them to make the assosciation between two stimuli ;-). Ben Hart's books are excellent.

3) Welsh cobs are horrendous beasts (I mean that affectionately as I have one - he came from N WAles too :-)) but it IS worth persevering. I know you said you would anyway (and well done you :-)) but I just wanted to reassure you that, though they will try your patience to its very end, once you've got over that they are the most hilarious horses that exist and provide endless amusement and fun with their crazy ways. But it does take quite a while to get used to one another.

Good luck, you're doing all the right things (though I agree I wouldn't keep in for a graze!).
 
BoxCleva said:
Hi,
he was brought in for a couple of reasons.
He sustained a small skin graze to a front leg so he was in for a couple of days for that to scab over, which it did. We then turned him back out but after a couple of days he'd pulled the scab off, so I decided to bring him back in until it healed over again. The second reason is my ignorance. And after reading your comments, once his leg has scabbed over he's off out again ;)
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Can't offer you any advice sorry but just wanted to say how nice it is to see someone come on here and take on board what people are saying and make the changes that are suggested without throwing a wobbly! Good luck with your horse :)
 
BoxCleva said:
One final question.

If I am not feeding him hard food , how would I go about putting weight on him?

It was my understanding that hay has little benefit and his pasture is very thin on grass.

thanks
Click to expand...

Good quality hay has as much feed value as grass. It is cut when grass is at its most nutritious and provides the bulk and fibre that horses need. It is bulk that will put weight on your pony without giving him unwanted energy!

If you are really concerned about his weight perhaps you could get your vet to check him over?
 
Firstly, I would echo what has been said/advised on a regular instructor, feed, turnout and consistent handling. Also, another 'well done' for coming here and being receptive to advice.

Who helped you with your first pony? Can they not do the same now?

If you purchased him privately, the old owners should be more than happy to help you iron out any problems. I know I would much rather help and support new owners than risk the pony getting upset, a reputation for being difficult and possibly someone getting hurt.

Joining your local pony club will provide you with a wealth of guidance, support and some regular instruction.

Has someone actually told you that your pony is under conditioned and needs to gain weight?
This is quite a useful guide for you to look at:
http://www.baileyshorsefeeds.co.uk/feedingexplained/conditionscoring1.htm

Lastly, whoever recommended a 4yr old (anything, never mind a sec D) as the perfect pony for a relatively novice rider and parents, with no experienced support and back up, wants a serious reality check. :(
 
Welcome to HHO BoxClever.

I'm sure you have many different approaches to choose from but I just wanted to add some more for you :)

Being an instructor myself (although not in north Wales or any where near you!) I also suggest finding a good instructor to help and guide your daughter. It def sounds like he is pushing the boundaries.

In regards to the feed, feed itself will not cause your horse to be excitable. Obviously as you know, all living creatures need food (calories) to survive. Calories themselves wont change behaviour. That's like saying a whole bag of pasta will cause your child to run wild. It's the type of feed that can cause excitable behaviour.

Mixes are full of cereals which CAN cause excitable behaviour due to starch (which they contain). If he does need calories in order to maintain his weight I would suggest feeding a high fibre diet as this is non heating but would be providing calories. High fibre cubes or something like that. Choose a product with a starch level of under 15%.

Feed companies do have a free service called a care line. Give them a call and they will be able to advice you on the best products for your horse as there are many factors involved when choosing what feed is right for your horse, it isn't as simple as feeding what the other liveries feed as all horses are individuals. I would suggest calling either Spillers, Dodson and horrell or top spec. They are the best 3.

Also in regards to sugar beet it will not be causing excitable behaviour. It is non heating and high in fibre. Also by the time it's soaked it is 80% water so actually very low in nutritional value unless you feed bucket loads of it which isn't recommended.

Oh, and welcome to the world of horses. As I'm sure you've gathered there are lots of experts all with different opinions!!
 
Hi there. I have only every had welshies so have over 20 years of owning them. Cut out the sugarbeet, it drove mine nuts to the point of being dangerous. They have so much energy they don't need to get anymore from food! As much turn out as possible and a regular routine.
 
@Trot on dressage - Many thanks, your post has certainly thrown a spanner in the works :D

Wouldn't it be nice to just have one definitive answer to these issues :rolleyes:

I've actually found out what he was being fed. It was Wynners Horse & Pony mix (http://www.wynnstaygroup.co.uk/wynner_horse.html) along with the sugarbeet. He was getting a good food scoop of both, twice a day. He's just on the pony mix at present until we find an alternative. Good advice with regard to the Call lines, thanks.

@Como

Thanks, I will sure you will see more posts from me, so I'd be very interested to hear your opinions ;)

Here is a pic of the little s*d. ( I don't mean it, but he was a pain in the bum tonight :eek: )

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IMG-20120904-00601.jpg


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I had him get away from me tonight whilst I was washing his feet with the hosepipe (something else he hates) :rolleyes:

One other question.

Is it reasonable to expect him to leave his food alone until he is given the command to eat , or am I pushing my luck ? At the moment we lean over the stable door and drop his food bucket on the floor - I would like to be able to enter the stable and place his food down without being crowded and leave before allowing him to eat.
 
BoxCleva said:
Wow, lots of replies.

I will try and answer as many points as I can.
  • His diet is chump mix, but has been fed additional sugar beet with each meal for the last couple of weeks.He has access to hay nets
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  • Well there's your answer then. The pony's feed changed a couple of weeks ago, so did its behaviour. Try taking the sugar beet out of the diet. I bet the behaviour goes back to normal.. Out of interest is it molassed sugarbeet or non-molassed?

    What exactly is 'chump mix'?
 
Many years ago horses many were trained or expected to go to the back of the stable if a person entered lol
The short answer is Yes. You should be able to go in with the food bucket, ask him to step back, place the bucket on the floor and leave or get on with grooming/mucking out - he will need groundwork to learn to get out of your space unless invited, with positive reinforcement. He will also need training in the stable, and exiting and entering the stable mannerly. Barging or entering your space without an invite is a definite nono, even more so when there's food around.
 
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Thanks for the update.

Just to add, I've just looked on the feeds website and the starch levels of the feed aren't on there. A mix will be over 15% starch due to their contents which could be causing the excitability. Def give the care line a call.

In regards to the feeding, unlike a dog you couldn't put the feed down and expect the horse to leave it until you said "go", how ever you should be making them submit to you when you put the feed in. I expect my horse to back up and look to the side when I open his door.

To work on this do some in hand work where you get him to walk backwards on your command, walking towards his shoulder and saying "back back". If he doesn't move (which he won't at first) place hand in his chest and push back firmly whilist reappearing "back, back" if he then moves back even the slightest give him a big praise. He will then start to understand and you can expect him to do so during any time, even feed time. That exercise will also help you establish being the leader. I hope it makes sense!
 
It's certainly reasonable to expect him to wait to eat until you're ready - but not until you've trained him to do it. Otherwise, he will have no clue what you're doing, so effectively you will be teasing him with food.

I trained mine to wait (and actualiy to walk a few steps backwards) using small food rewards. Now I can hold up a piece of carrot, and he will take three or four steps back, then i walk over and give him the food. Once he'd learned this, he very quickly tranferred it to buckets of feed - so now I can go into his field carrying a full bucket, walk alongside him until I get to where I want to put the bucket down, hold it and say "back" - he takes a couple of steps back, I put the bucket down and say "eat" and he eats.

He wouldn't have understood any of that without training, and me trying to keep the bucket away while dancing around would have just led to him being frustrated.

By the way, you can also train your horse to be fine about having feet hosed. As a poster above suggested, investigate clicker training :)
 
Ive not read the whole thread (sorry) but just wanted to say on your last comment - I think thats probably quite alot to ask from a horse!(Im guessing you're a dog person, though :D )

However, you CAN teach better manners around food. I actually clicker- trained my gobby food-focused mare to turn her head away from me when I get out a treat, and built it up so that she doesnt flatten me when I have her feed bucket. Having said this, however you try and train it, I think that if your horse lacks basic manners then you may struggle moreso with combatting this sort of issue, so would tackle that first!
 
Welshies need very strong and clear leadership. Whilst he was out 24/7 he was getting that leadership from his herd - now YOU are his herd. Don't bully him, but show him very clearly what is acceptable and what isn't.

Get it right now and you will have the best horse in the world for the rest of his life - but get it wrong and you will have a disaster. Get an experienced instructor to show you how to handle on the ground and the riding will follow.
 
Thanks folks,
No I didn't expect the result without the effort :D

I am quite aware that he is going to need significant, sustained and uniform training from both myself and my daughter.

He is VERY much in my zone when I enter the stable at the moment. He was not at all impressed when I pushed him back several times whilst tying his hay nets up :rolleyes:
 
But remember firm, square up and be kind, giving verbal praise and the odd treat (not too many or he'll learn to mug you) and pats and head rubs when he gets it right. Firm and bullying/nasty ... you won't win! lol
 
I hadn't read all the thread. IME, though if one thing has been changed and then behavioural changes are noticed, it is a pretty safe bet that the thing that has been changed is the root cause of the behavioural changes. Some horses cannottolerate unmolassed beet but it is more usual for molasses to be the cause of behavioural problems.
 
I know what you mean, and I'd love to feed him just ad hoc hay, but as he is in a field from 7am to 7pm with half a dozen other horses they would get most of it :confused:

So he's getting as much as possible in the evening. It's a balancing act that I haven't worked out a proper solution to yet.
 
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