Nice to see more professionals taking a stand..

I understand what everyone is saying, but these are show cobs who don’t actually do a great deal in their classes (other than look ridiculously fat in my opinion). I’m far more concerned about the amount of fat horses you see eventing. Quite how people expect obese horses to get themselves (and rider) safely over solid fences is beyond me. Blows my mind.
 
I wonder if the fact that guidance on rider weight is generally expressed as a percentage of horse weight plays a part.

One lady out our yard recently had her horse weighed, and was happy to tell everyone that she was within a good horse to rider ratio. To me however her horse is obese, so he is carrying his own excess weight as well as the rider.
 
Both horses are definitely overweight and should have been lower placed. Strangely I mentioned on another thread a couple of weeks ago how nice it was to see in the showing section of h&h magazine that judges seemed to be moving away from putting overweight horses in 1st place, guess I should have kept my mouth shut. I do hope this doesn't continue.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
against the obesity pandemic in horses, especially those being rewarded at top level.

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ETA: Another winner that is returned in the Google results for 'Windsor championship 2022' - looks to be an article by H&H but I haven't paid so can't read it.. It's nice that professionals are standing up and speaking out against it but obviously the judges need their heads wobbling and their eyes opening.

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There’s a beautiful horse under that grey blob
 
Goldenstar said:
Blue my cob was 850 kilos when he came he’s a heavy horse as in Clydesdale / ID hes now 670.
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That's an incredible weight loss, well done. I got my IDx down from 695kg, where she was obese, to 619kg, when she was actually a little light - the difference that just a 76kg loss made was very marked.

ETA Body condition scoring should be added to judge's guidelines for assessing the horses in front of them. Any horse that exceeds a healthy weight should be sent out of the ring. So maybe a max score of 3.5/5 to even stay in the ring, but horse still to be marked down for excess condition.

https://www.bhs.org.uk/advice-and-information/horse-care/fat-scoring

This all needs to come from the top down. The showing societies are well aware of the issue and are doing nothing. The fix is simple - stop letting obese horses win and place in big classes. The pro producers will soon slim down their charges if tubs of lard are sent out of the ring.
 
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Tiddlypom said:
The maxi cob started as a lightweight cob but 'grew out', according to his producer :rolleyes:.

The showing world is a total disgrace. Time and again the subject of obese horses winning and placing at top shows comes up, and precisely feck all happens as too many people are making too much money out of producing tubs of lard for the show ring.

Obese horses should be sent out of the ring.
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Maxi cob is not determined by bone or fatness it is determined by height so it is entirely possible to grow out of light/heavyweight classes when they mature and get taller.

But these cobs are too fat and that so called producer of cobs is horrific. Not only did she have that horrible side reins video the other year and lost Baileys as a sponsor she also got a a mediocre hunter so fat it was put into cob classes. She was winning the cob classes because of who she was not because the horse was a very good example of a cob. It would have been a middle/heavyweight hunter but lacked height so wouldnt stand up against the bigger horses hence why she tried turning it into a cob through feeding it. Funnily enough she lost it a year or 2 later to "lameness issues". I despise the woman. Always have.
 
Aside from the grossly overweight winning, which is terrible. I just don't understand why bigger height wise is better. Surely the better conformed, mannered, etc should win if it is within the height range of the class. Sorry if I'm road railing. Ignore me if I am
 
magicmoments said:
Aside from the grossly overweight winning, which is terrible. I just don't understand why bigger height wise is better. Surely the better conformed, mannered, etc should win if it is within the height range of the class. Sorry if I'm road railing. Ignore me if I am
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In theory it shouldn't matter in most classes. Hunters are supposed to be able to carry a certain weight all day on the hunting field so some of the ones that are small in their weight section might not actually be able to (in theory) hold the weight all day. Same with some that are too big. So its not just smaller ones its ones that are too big so basically you want a nice size of horse in each section - usually around the 16.2-17.1hh mark.

Cobs tend to be mostly up to their height limits (about 15hh if I remember correctly) and any above that go into Maxi Cob classes.

In native pony classes the bigger ones stand out more so everyone wants something up to height. We had a perfect Welsh B but he was 12hh. B's can be up to 13.2hh and whilst he won at the Royal Welsh as a yearling after that he didn't do overly well in breed or native classes so he was plaited and turned out as a SHP, which is what he went to HOYS as.

Part of the problem with breeding for height is you lose type. Look at the Welsh D's that are over 15hh. They lose most pony aspects and usually their movement too.

Added height gives you more to look at, more to draw the eye to you. Same with stallions. So many people have stallions now because they have more presence in the ring. Most of these ponies wont ever cover a mare, most live solitary lives in stables and paddocks by themselves just so they can be shown with that little bit of extra something. But I do see a lot of stallions that shouldnt have been kept entire because they are not quite good enough. And yet they still win because of their necks and their carraige. Equally I have seen very good geldings that should have been kept entire as they are far better examples of their breed.

Showing is a funny world and it really does swing in roundabout every decade or so as to what is in favour.

I actually find the kids small lead rein, first ridden, junior ridden ponies are lot fatter with less muscle tone underneath that a lot of the bigger horses.
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
Maxi cob is not determined by bone or fatness it is determined by height so it is entirely possible to grow out of light/heavyweight classes when they mature and get taller.

But these cobs are too fat and that so called producer of cobs is horrific. Not only did she have that horrible side reins video the other year and lost Baileys as a sponsor she also got a a mediocre hunter so fat it was put into cob classes. She was winning the cob classes because of who she was not because the horse was a very good example of a cob. It would have been a middle/heavyweight hunter but lacked height so wouldnt stand up against the bigger horses hence why she tried turning it into a cob through feeding it. Funnily enough she lost it a year or 2 later to "lameness issues". I despise the woman. Always have.
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The producer isn’t the person you’re thinking it is. JR is riding the chestnut. You’re thinking of LR.
 
A fit smaller horse is far more likely to stand up to a day's hunting than a grossly obese 17.2. If that's meant to be a judging criterion.

All these producers are responsible for creating this appalling fashion, aided by the sponsorship from feed companies and the support of the likes of H&H magazine who pay them to write columns and feature them in articles, show reports at photo spreads.

I'm always reminded of Thelwell ponies when I see these vast lard mounds ridden by teeny looking riders whose legs are stuck out the sides because they can't get them either side of the flab. Yet they're normal sized people on the ground.
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
Maxi cob is not determined by bone or fatness it is determined by height so it is entirely possible to grow out of light/heavyweight classes when they mature and get taller.
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Agree that a lightweight cob is lightweight because it is light of bone but measures in. So once it grew too tall for the LW class the producer fed it up to grossness to try and compete with the true HW maxicobs, but it is still a LW build carrying far too much condition. It is a ruse to hoodwink the judges, and the ruse worked :rolleyes:.

Showing stinks.
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
Maxi cob is not determined by bone or fatness it is determined by height so it is entirely possible to grow out of light/heavyweight classes when they mature and get taller.

But these cobs are too fat and that so called producer of cobs is horrific. Not only did she have that horrible side reins video the other year and lost Baileys as a sponsor she also got a a mediocre hunter so fat it was put into cob classes. She was winning the cob classes because of who she was not because the horse was a very good example of a cob. It would have been a middle/heavyweight hunter but lacked height so wouldnt stand up against the bigger horses hence why she tried turning it into a cob through feeding it. Funnily enough she lost it a year or 2 later to "lameness issues". I despise the woman. Always have.
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I am often concerned when I read that showing horses have died at relatively young ages and in the year pre-Covid there were a whole series of them with lameness or laminitis related deaths. It is awful and abusive, yet showing societies and judges just seem to keep rewarding obesity. 25 years ago I was asked to judge at a local show; I threw out a couple of horribly obese ponies - was railed at by their owners who told me they had to have horses in 'show condition' and wouldn't listen to me telling them their horses were too fat. I also threw out a pony whose owners had lunged and lunged it prior to a terrified child getting on board only for the pony to go vertical. Child was re-installed but on safety grounds I asked the steward to tell the owners to remove child and pony. That went well. I've never been asked to judge again (obviously lol) and I am not remotely sad about it!! Sadly showing doesn't seem to have moved on nearly enough.
 
I was recently on a yard with a 'showing person'. Their horse was grossly overweight, was never allowed to be without food - 20kg haynets were the norm, and the condition of the horse was referred to an investment. Whenever weight came up I was told that I just didn't understand the showing world and had no idea - it was like trying to talk to a brainwashed cult member.

All the time that grossly obese horses are being celebrated in print and are being placed at top level shows, we have no chance of improving this huge welfare issue.
 
Hideous, poor horses. I feel like a broken record at this point, I think we all do, yet here H&H are promoting them, and here the judges are putting them top of the line. As long as judges put obese horses at the top of the line, it will continue.
 
*not a showing person* but why can’t they weigh in horses and riders before classes? Surely it could turn the overweight horse/ too heavy rider situation around and wouldn’t be that hard to do.
There would need to be some kind of agreed BMI value deemed as suitable for horses and percentage weight limit for riders but that’s not that hard surely?
 
Melody Grey said:
*not a showing person* but why can’t they weigh in horses and riders before classes? Surely it could turn the overweight horse/ too heavy rider situation around and wouldn’t be that hard to do.
There would need to be some kind of agreed BMI value deemed as suitable for horses and percentage weight limit for riders but that’s not that hard surely?
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Its not that they can’t it’s that they won’t!
 
Melody Grey said:
*not a showing person* but why can’t they weigh in horses and riders before classes? Surely it could turn the overweight horse/ too heavy rider situation around and wouldn’t be that hard to do.
There would need to be some kind of agreed BMI value deemed as suitable for horses and percentage weight limit for riders but that’s not that hard surely?
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BMI is not relevant to horses only to rider health .
It’s worth remembering a over weight woman on say a maxi cob may be lighter than a big man with high muscle bulk .
Of course no one wants to see too big riders on ponies but these riders are usually not over weight .
There’s no excuse for hugely fat horses but as long as riders are not too heavy for the horse .
I am a bit on the plump side atm but my horse can carry a man way heavier than me he’s a physically mature and fit ID .
There where some fat riders at RWHS but I did not see anyone too heavy for their horse ( of course I did not see every horse )it spoils the overall picture but it’s a jump to say riders should be weighted and have their BMI checked .
BMI would be a useless tool a physically fir extremely highly muscled petite woman can easily come up with a high BMI many professional athletes have a too high BMI when it’s used as a blunt tool .
It’s based on average muscle bulk so not really helpful in this context .
 
You can't weigh them as they go into the ring because not only would it take too long you would need a weighbridge at every ring. Plus, like humans, each horse is different. Some carry more muscle, some have very thick, heavy bones, some have huge heads, some may be infoal etc. so you can't say this class the horses should weigh in between X and Y.

As to the judges - well yes the judges do need to start putting fat horses down but the problem then becomes which is the worse sin - a fat, well mannered horse with good conformation or a fitter, leaner horse who is pig ignorant and moves like a wonky donkey. Same with any showing class you have to weigh up the pros and cons of each horse in front of you.
 
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