Nice to see more professionals taking a stand..

There doesn’t appear to be any meaningful standard about what takes priority at any rate. My Welsh A was beaten in the ring by a pony that spent half its time on its back legs, including in front of the judge, at a WPCS show, and then at a county show got dropped down the line because he was a little fidgety standing for the judge. I didn’t mind that, manners are important, but it seems to be one rule for one judge, one for another. IMO obesity should be judged just as harshly as bad conformation, because on the day in front of the judge, the horse isn’t fit for purpose therefore can’t hit the required class standard.
 
NinjaPony said:
There doesn’t appear to be any meaningful standard about what takes priority at any rate. My Welsh A was beaten in the ring by a pony that spent half its time on its back legs, including in front of the judge, at a WPCS show, and then at a county show got dropped down the line because he was a little fidgety standing for the judge. I didn’t mind that, manners are important, but it seems to be one rule for one judge, one for another. IMO obesity should be judged just as harshly as bad conformation, because on the day in front of the judge, the horse isn’t fit for purpose therefore can’t hit the required class standard.
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Each judge has their own idea on what they will overlook behavior wise. Some are very strict, some are very lenient. When I am judging inhand i like a bit of fire and show off-y-ness but they must keep their feet mostly on the floor, not be rude or bargy (beyond youngstock going WTH is going on!) And show every pace required as stand for long enough to assess conformation.
 
That’s what I mean though, it’s incredibly subjective which makes it difficult to know what to expect/how to train them for the ring. One of many reasons I switched disciplines.

At least in dressage the rules are clearer about what is required in terms of behaviour; if the horse stands on its back legs in the halt, you’ll get a 3 or worse.
 
At my one attempt at showing, I'm pretty sure I was placed last because I forgot my hair net. ?

As the owner of a fat maxi-cob type that would look quite svelte stood next to those two it enrages me to see horses like that celebrated. (I do my utmost to slim mine down because I well and truly get the message about how bad for her health it is. It's bloody hard work...) These fat horses should he deemed "unjudgeable" due to the fat covering the conformation and either sent out or given a zero score for conformation. I'm sure experienced eyes CAN see past the fat to the horse underneath but my point is that they shouldn't be asked to.
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
In theory it shouldn't matter in most classes. Hunters are supposed to be able to carry a certain weight all day on the hunting field so some of the ones that are small in their weight section might not actually be able to (in theory) hold the weight all day. Same with some that are too big. So its not just smaller ones its ones that are too big so basically you want a nice size of horse in each section - usually around the 16.2-17.1hh mark.

Cobs tend to be mostly up to their height limits (about 15hh if I remember correctly) and any above that go into Maxi Cob classes.

In native pony classes the bigger ones stand out more so everyone wants something up to height. We had a perfect Welsh B but he was 12hh. B's can be up to 13.2hh and whilst he won at the Royal Welsh as a yearling after that he didn't do overly well in breed or native classes so he was plaited and turned out as a SHP, which is what he went to HOYS as.

Part of the problem with breeding for height is you lose type. Look at the Welsh D's that are over 15hh. They lose most pony aspects and usually their movement too.

Added height gives you more to look at, more to draw the eye to you. Same with stallions. So many people have stallions now because they have more presence in the ring. Most of these ponies wont ever cover a mare, most live solitary lives in stables and paddocks by themselves just so they can be shown with that little bit of extra something. But I do see a lot of stallions that shouldnt have been kept entire because they are not quite good enough. And yet they still win because of their necks and their carraige. Equally I have seen very good geldings that should have been kept entire as they are far better examples of their breed.

Showing is a funny world and it really does swing in roundabout every decade or so as to what is in favour.

I actually find the kids small lead rein, first ridden, junior ridden ponies are lot fatter with less muscle tone underneath that a lot of the bigger horses.
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You have completely hit the nail on the head with the native classes. So glad I don’t show anymore
 
OK... so The Beast is fat. Ribs CAN be felt quite easily but not close enough to the surface. She has a splodge of fat behind the shoulder and, although far from an apple bum, has a little fat at the tail head. Plus a bit of a crest. I would be very, very unhappy if she got much fatter and she is currently on a very eaten down 1 acre paddock with MrT and Little Dragon overnight... in during the day with one small hay net at lunchtime and worked every day. But still just light work. I look at her at the moment and am just thinking "argh... fat!"... and am scheming ways to get more weight off her.

I did a side by side comparison with the grey featured above as I was looking at the picture in isolation and thinking "OMFG please tell me that The Beast doesn't look like that"... thankfully she doesn't!
20220520_163433.jpg

BUT here's the thing. As a amateur owner with fat horse I should absolutely NOT be looking at a show champion horse and feeling *better* about my overweight horse should I? I should be thinking "I wish I could get my mare to look like that fabulous equine specimen, I would love to know any hints and tips this professional person could offer me to improve the health and well-being of my horses"

Do you see what I mean?

It's ridiculous ?
 
PapaverFollis said:
OK... so The Beast is fat. Ribs CAN be felt quite easily but not close enough to the surface. She has a splodge of fat behind the shoulder and, although far from an apple bum, has a little fat at the tail head. Plus a bit of a crest. I would be very, very unhappy if she got much fatter and she is currently on a very eaten down 1 acre paddock with MrT and Little Dragon overnight... in during the day with one small hay net at lunchtime and worked every day. But still just light work. I look at her at the moment and am just thinking "argh... fat!"... and am scheming ways to get more weight off her.

I did a side by side comparison with the grey featured above as I was looking at the picture in isolation and thinking "OMFG please tell me that The Beast doesn't look like that"... thankfully she doesn't!
View attachment 92930

BUT here's the thing. As a amateur owner with fat horse I should absolutely NOT be looking at a show champion horse and feeling *better* about my overweight horse should I? I should be thinking "I wish I could get my mare to look like that fabulous equine specimen, I would love to know any hints and tips this professional person could offer me to improve the health and well-being of my horses"

Do you see what I mean?

It's ridiculous ?
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Yes, I so agree with this. Also, it is very dispiriting to know that there is a huge investment in show horses/ponies and that saddle fitters, vets and farriers amongst other professionals (chiropractors/physios etc) are absolutely complicit in promoting these obese horses :( You would hope that at the top level there would be some sense and leadership from several directions but judging from the championship photos there isn't and there are plenty of other equine professionals happy to support this kind of misery. My farrier, vet and saddle fitter ALL discuss the weight and condition of the horses of mine they see - whether it is around a horse running up light after winter and thus perhaps needing a temporary saddle fit strategy OR my potentially porky native and the work she is doing etc. All of the pros I use to help me have perfectly sensible and tactful ways of discussing these things (including my weight and size when discussing new saddles, workloads etc - IF that is appropriate) but I guess they have no need to pander to me and are genuinely doing their best for my horses. Which is what I blooming pay them for!! GAHHHHHH!!!
 
I do always find it interesting that they aren't actually unfit, from what I've observed in big rings they do for the most part canter round for a quite a long time and don't keel over. I guess if they did it would change, or they really didn't move well as a result of the weight.
 
PapaverFollis said:
OK... so The Beast is fat. Ribs CAN be felt quite easily but not close enough to the surface. She has a splodge of fat behind the shoulder and, although far from an apple bum, has a little fat at the tail head. Plus a bit of a crest. I would be very, very unhappy if she got much fatter and she is currently on a very eaten down 1 acre paddock with MrT and Little Dragon overnight... in during the day with one small hay net at lunchtime and worked every day. But still just light work. I look at her at the moment and am just thinking "argh... fat!"... and am scheming ways to get more weight off her.

I did a side by side comparison with the grey featured above as I was looking at the picture in isolation and thinking "OMFG please tell me that The Beast doesn't look like that"... thankfully she doesn't!
View attachment 92930

BUT here's the thing. As a amateur owner with fat horse I should absolutely NOT be looking at a show champion horse and feeling *better* about my overweight horse should I? I should be thinking "I wish I could get my mare to look like that fabulous equine specimen, I would love to know any hints and tips this professional person could offer me to improve the health and well-being of my horses"

Do you see what I mean?

It's ridiculous ?
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No offense intended - your horse needs a really good bubble bath and they will look better than the cob below it!
 
palo1 said:
Yes, I so agree with this. Also, it is very dispiriting to know that there is a huge investment in show horses/ponies and that saddle fitters, vets and farriers amongst other professionals (chiropractors/physios etc) are absolutely complicit in promoting these obese horses :( You would hope that at the top level there would be some sense and leadership from several directions but judging from the championship photos there isn't and there are plenty of other equine professionals happy to support this kind of misery. My farrier, vet and saddle fitter ALL discuss the weight and condition of the horses of mine they see - whether it is around a horse running up light after winter and thus perhaps needing a temporary saddle fit strategy OR my potentially porky native and the work she is doing etc. All of the pros I use to help me have perfectly sensible and tactful ways of discussing these things (including my weight and size when discussing new saddles, workloads etc - IF that is appropriate) but I guess they have no need to pander to me and are genuinely doing their best for my horses. Which is what I blooming pay them for!! GAHHHHHH!!!
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Money and fame by association makes people do strange things. Similar to why celebrities often go off the rails because no one wants the gravy train to stop. So no one says no to them. It’s morally corrupt.
 
palo1 said:
Yes, I so agree with this. Also, it is very dispiriting to know that there is a huge investment in show horses/ponies and that saddle fitters, vets and farriers amongst other professionals (chiropractors/physios etc) are absolutely complicit in promoting these obese horses :( You would hope that at the top level there would be some sense and leadership from several directions but judging from the championship photos there isn't and there are plenty of other equine professionals happy to support this kind of misery. My farrier, vet and saddle fitter ALL discuss the weight and condition of the horses of mine they see - whether it is around a horse running up light after winter and thus perhaps needing a temporary saddle fit strategy OR my potentially porky native and the work she is doing etc. All of the pros I use to help me have perfectly sensible and tactful ways of discussing these things (including my weight and size when discussing new saddles, workloads etc - IF that is appropriate) but I guess they have no need to pander to me and are genuinely doing their best for my horses. Which is what I blooming pay them for!! GAHHHHHH!!!
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Some owners would sack any professional that suggested a weight issue.

I am incensed by those complicit in creating obese animals, regardless of ignorance, status or professed expertise and it makes me want them to have painful experiences. I care not who I insult with bald facts and the issue is with the cliquey, producer names and judging elite. Vet's should patrol and disqualify pre-appearance in the ring and that ought to be that. Grrrr.
 
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Elf On A Shelf said:
In theory it shouldn't matter in most classes. Hunters are supposed to be able to carry a certain weight all day on the hunting field so some of the ones that are small in their weight section might not actually be able to (in theory) hold the weight all day. Same with some that are too big. So its not just smaller ones its ones that are too big so basically you want a nice size of horse in each section - usually around the 16.2-17.1hh mark.

Cobs tend to be mostly up to their height limits (about 15hh if I remember correctly) and any above that go into Maxi Cob classes.

In native pony classes the bigger ones stand out more so everyone wants something up to height. We had a perfect Welsh B but he was 12hh. B's can be up to 13.2hh and whilst he won at the Royal Welsh as a yearling after that he didn't do overly well in breed or native classes so he was plaited and turned out as a SHP, which is what he went to HOYS as.

Part of the problem with breeding for height is you lose type. Look at the Welsh D's that are over 15hh. They lose most pony aspects and usually their movement too.

Added height gives you more to look at, more to draw the eye to you. Same with stallions. So many people have stallions now because they have more presence in the ring. Most of these ponies wont ever cover a mare, most live solitary lives in stables and paddocks by themselves just so they can be shown with that little bit of extra something. But I do see a lot of stallions that shouldnt have been kept entire because they are not quite good enough. And yet they still win because of their necks and their carraige. Equally I have seen very good geldings that should have been kept entire as they are far better examples of their breed.

Showing is a funny world and it really does swing in roundabout every decade or so as to what is in favour.

I actually find the kids small lead rein, first ridden, junior ridden ponies are lot fatter with less muscle tone underneath that a lot of the bigger horses.
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Thank you for your very detailed reply.
 
Robert Orssich had some lovely show horses, of the ones I've seen photos of (and from what I've heard from a lady who used to be his groom) none of them were fat and they all looked capable of actually doing a day's work. When you look at old copies of H&H, Riding magazine and and showing books the current 'fad' for obesity seems to have started at some point in the 1990s. I suppose before then there was a much more limited choice of feeds (no mixes sold as 'conditioning') and the rugs available meant horses were more likely to loose weight in winter. I think people's understanding of 'work' for horses was different too, and a lot of show animals did other things too, like hunt.
 
SilverLinings said:
It's ironic that the showing world talks so much about tradition when actually a lot of the types you see in the ring today are nothing like the stamp favoured 30 years ago let alone 50/100/+ years ago.
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Nah we are only traditional in the sense that we insist on wearing heavy woolen jackets in baking hot summer weather and leather boots whilst riding ??? everything else is in flux so long as its in fashion ???
 
SilverLinings said:
It's ironic that the showing world talks so much about tradition when actually a lot of the types you see in the ring today are nothing like the stamp favoured 30 years ago let alone 50/100/+ years ago.
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They really aren't. The distinctive look that the top horses and ponies of old had has gone too ie as soon as you saw the photo you knew exactly which horse or pony it was. There are few instantly recognisable ones about now.
 
People complain about racehorses being broken in too young and the resulting issues, physically.

How many of these show horses die or are crippled by after a couple of seasons? But it doesn’t matter because once they’ve won, move them on, get the next one,
 
Elf On A Shelf said:
Fetlock - both of those would be classed as Riding Horses now.
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Not sure what class this lovely cob would be in these days, but he'd be laughed out of a cob class for sure.

1653076782828.png

And a heavyweight cob from the same era

1653077769458.png

(Photo credits: Native and British Riding Pony champions of yesteryear group on Facebook)
 
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I would say Small Hunter these days. But still not quite thick enough so wouldn't be top class. Would probably do OK in Intermediates though.

But no he is most certainly not a cob by today's standards. Not by a long shot.
 
fetlock said:
Not sure what class this lovely cob would be in these days, but he'd be laughed out of a cob class for sure.

View attachment 92937

And a heavyweight cob from the same era

View attachment 92938

(Photo credits: Native and British Riding Pony champions of yesteryear group on Facebook)
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At least the fad for docking has gone, replacing with possibly worse welfare issues.
 
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