NIGHTMARE FIRST TIME PURCHASE

[Sail_away]

Some sound advice above on the legal side of things so I won’t comment on that apart from good luck.
But when you do go horse shopping again, take someone knowledgeable along with you. A well-known instructor for example or a yard owner if you know any. A 24yr ex racer is likely to be a walking vets bill for one, yes some horses work up until and into their 30s but they are the minority. Unfortunately you have massively overpaid, it is a horse most people would not take on if it were free. So it is really no bad thing if the sale falls through.
Once you’ve found someone experienced, I’d draw up a set of criteria for the horse with them. You say this is your first horse so I’ll assume you’re fairly novice (apologies if that’s not right). So have a think about what you want to do with the horse, then have an age range, a budget, temperament, which quirks you will and won’t accept, rough height, rough type etc. And hopefully that way you can end up on something suitable the next horse you buy.

 

[Horsejess2020]

Some sound advice above on the legal side of things so I won’t comment on that apart from good luck.
But when you do go horse shopping again, take someone knowledgeable along with you. A well-known instructor for example or a yard owner if you know any. A 24yr ex racer is likely to be a walking vets bill for one, yes some horses work up until and into their 30s but they are the minority. Unfortunately you have massively overpaid, it is a horse most people would not take on if it were free. So it is really no bad thing if the sale falls through.
Once you’ve found someone experienced, I’d draw up a set of criteria for the horse with them. You say this is your first horse so I’ll assume you’re fairly novice (apologies if that’s not right). So have a think about what you want to do with the horse, then have an age range, a budget, temperament, which quirks you will and won’t accept, rough height, rough type etc. And hopefully that way you can end up on something suitable the next horse you buy.

Thankyou I appreciate that and when I am ready to try this again I will defdinrolt take someone with me to view!! But for now I'm not in the frame of mind to try again for a while. Xx

 

[Ample Prosecco]

She does not get to define 'welfare concern'. She needs some credible evidence which she has not got. That contract also makes it clear that you can refuse to return the horse if you want. You need to agree to return the horse. In which case the buyer must refund. So it is up to you. If you want the horse, keep him! He may be over priced but worth it to you. Or insist on a full refund and she needs to collect or pay for a transporter. If you do keep him I'd pay asap and then cut off all contact.

 

[DabDab]

It stated the amount I paid and my instalments I'm paying it says I'm responsible for him and all his costs and she cannot request him back without refunding my money other than on a welfare concern!

Surely it wasn't someone with legal training that wrote that contract? (Also probably best if you crop out the email address)

 

[Horsejess2020]

Surely it wasn't someone with legal training that wrote that contract? (Also probably best if you crop out the email address)

I remember he clearly saying she got it online and had never sold a animal before ??

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

There is something odd going on here! It is not normal to have a contract when you buy a horse, you get a receipt which says something like '15hh bay gelding , 9 yrs old sold as seen with one saddle and bridle, received £xxxx with thanks'

 

[DabDab]

I remember he clearly saying she got it online and had never sold a animal before ??

?‍ show it to a lawyer and see what they say, but it's badly written and I shouldn't think it's worth the paper it's written on.

 

[Horsejess2020]

His details are at the top of the contract I also have his passport aswell which she sent with him!

She didn't list what tack he came with on the contract only via fb message which I have screen shotted and not sure how she is going to say any of it is damaged as I have also go photos of it when it arrived.

 

[ycbm]

His details are at the top of the contract I also have his passport aswell which she sent with him!

She didn't list what tack he came with on the contract only via fb message which I have screen shotted and not sure how she is going to say any of it is damaged as I have also go photos of it when it arrived.

This is surely a scam. Sell a horse, take it back on your own self defined welfare grounds, then you don't have to refund.

Is there a paragraph which says something like 'Title does not pass to the purchaser until payment is made in full.'?

If there isn't, then you almost certainly own this horse and can do what you like with it.

That was very farsighted of you to photograph the tack when it arrived.

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[Horsejess2020]

So legal ownership was stated as the sellers until the last payment had been paid. And I took pictured of it to send a friend to show her everything just luck I think x

 

[ycbm]

Then you don't own the horse, and I believe that you have to return it whether she refunds you or not, and will have to go to court to get your money back if she won't pay.

We could have done with that information up front, it changes everything.

You need legal advice from someone who understands hire purchase law.

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[Horsejess2020]

Surely as she isn't abiding by the contract by wanting to change it she is breaching it??

 

[DabDab]

Surely as she isn't abiding by the contract by wanting to change it she is breaching it??

You need a lawyer

 

[ycbm]

Surely as she isn't abiding by the contract by wanting to change it she is breaching it??

You said she had agreed to take him back, which she can do as she owns him. You need legal help, you are in a right pickle with that contract. I don't think a forum is the right place for you to try to get this advice, sorry.

.

 

[Horsejess2020]

You said she had agreed to take him back, which she can do as she owns him. You need legal help, you are in a right pickle with that contract. I don't think a forum is the right place for you to try to get this advice, sorry.

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I have got legal advice I just wanted others opinions on this. Weather I was in the wrong here I was happy do go with the current contract she is requesting him back with not refunding me because she dosent want to give up ownership of him ??‍

 

[ycbm]

I have got legal advice I just wanted others opinions on this. Weather I was in the wrong here I was happy do go with the current contract she is requesting him back with not refunding me because she dosent want to give up ownership of him ??‍

The opinion of strangers on a forum you've only just joined is not what you need.

You need a lawyer.

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[DabDab]

I have got legal advice I just wanted others opinions on this. Weather I was in the wrong here I was happy do go with the current contract she is requesting him back with not refunding me because she dosent want to give up ownership of him ??‍

It doesn't really matter whether we think you or her were in the wrong, it is a legal issue, purely that.

I have to say I never fail to be amazed at the weird and wonderful buying mechanisms people come up with to buy/sell a horse.

 

[Upthecreek]

It doesn't really matter whether we think you or her were in the wrong, it is a legal issue, purely that.

I have to say I never fail to be amazed at the weird and wonderful buying mechanisms people come up with to buy/sell a horse.

Absolutely! You pay the agreed price in full, you own the horse, simples. I just can’t understand how you could be confident that the buyer could afford to look after the horse properly if they couldn’t afford to pay the full purchase price, it just baffles me. And as shown here, makes things extremely messy if they go wrong. Slightly off topic I know.....

 

[honetpot]

Then you don't own the horse, and I believe that you have to return it whether she refunds you or not, and will have to go to court to get your money back if she won't pay.

We could have done with that information up front, it changes everything.

You need legal advice from someone who understands hire purchase law.

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That's why I thought that if you proved the terms of the original contract had been broken and get the seller to collect the horse, whilst you might not get the money refunded straight away, it makes it clearer. While the buyer has it, she is responsible for its welfare, it is an old horse so it could have issues, and is paying for its keep. It's a new one on me, you get your money and someone else gets to keep it and pay all the bills.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/d...borrowing/hire-purchase-and-conditional-sale/

 

[FFAQ]

OP exactly this happened to a friend of mine, except that he paid the full amount. He didn't give in to the seller when she said she'd changed her mind and she totally destroyed his life. She wrecked his business and tried to destroy his marriage. Please do seek legal advice and good luck.

 

[meleeka]

I had the opposite. I thought I was having a horse on loan only to find out when he arrived that the owner assumed I was buying him! Luckily for me he failed the vet and I ended up with a super horse for a nominal amount. There’s nowt as strange as horsey folk that’s for sure!

 

[Goldenstar]

Firstly , you where paying far to much for this horse .
Secondly , there’s no need for drama there’s a muddle And a situation you need out of sort it by texting or phoning her and saying of course you are upset but of course you will let her have her horse back tell the owner to return 1k and pick it up ASAP
You need stop being emotional about this it’s a horse you have had it a few minutes it’s not going to break your heart .
And never pay in instalments for a horse .

 

[Widgeon]

There is something odd going on here! It is not normal to have a contract when you buy a horse, you get a receipt which says something like '15hh bay gelding , 9 yrs old sold as seen with one saddle and bridle, received £xxxx with thanks'

I had a contract when I sold my horse - I used the one from the BHS legal service and adapted it to fit the circumstances of myself and the buyer. I'd never sold a horse before and just assumed that a contract would be a good thing to have. Buyer was fine with it. So I don't think a contract necessarily indicates dodgy - I think this woman sounds barmy rather than crooked. As are so many people in the horse world!

But regardless of the contract OP, it doesn't sound like you need to be worrying about going down the legal route yet - as Goldenstar says, stand your ground, this woman sounds like a fruit loop. But don't let her take the horse until she's given you at least most of your money back. Personally I would always text and / or email as well as or instead of phoning, because that way you have everything in writing, and secondly she will find it harder to pressure you that way.

Would it help to get a trusted friend or instructor involved? It may be that one phone call from someone who is clearly experienced and knowledgeable, and won't stand for her rubbish, will be enough to sort this woman out.

 

[ycbm]

The contract states that the seller can take the horse back if she is unhappy about the welfare standards to which it is being kept, which she is defining, with no refund. It's possible that this is a total scam from the outset.

It's unclear because of the staged payments whether the buyer does or does not own the horse. The contract states that she does not, but that may or may not be legally enforceable.

The buyer could try and bluff this out, but if it doesn't work then she may inadvertently have prejudiced her legal case if she then needs to sue to get her money back.

It's a right mess and could get worse without legal guidance. If the BHS legal help is involved then the buyer should stick with their advice, as long as they've seen the full contract and got the full details.

.

 

[Equi]

As ycbm says this could be a very well thought out scam. Get legal advise and get a vet to confirm the condition when he’s leaving.

 

[9tails]

I haven't seen the contract, but the seller sounds a right dodgy one. Firstly £2200 for a 24 year old ex racer? Holy moley. I would be surprised if you get 2 years riding from an ex racer that age. Secondly, a contract that wraps the buyer in knots over perceived welfare grounds with no refund? Must be a scam.

 

[Misty 2020]

Sounds like a horse selling scam to me. The same thing happened to my friend.

 

[Goldenstar]

Poor horse if it’s a scam these people need herding off a cliff by a herd angry shetlands

 

[Keira 8888]

This makes me so sad - poor OP, you must feel so confused and upset. It def sounds like a scam to me. And that you are dealing with a horrible vindictive woman. I personally would not want to allow her on the yard!! Unless I was surrounded by lots of strong burley friends to help you stand your ground! £1000 is a lot of money to lose and I know it must be so sad to let go of a horse that you have obviously loved having, if only for a short time. If I were you I would ask myself - what is the best outcome here? If it is to get your money back and let the horse go - then I think you should email and tell her that unless she refunds your £1k she will not be allowed to enter the yard and will then be dealing with your lawyer if she still demands to have him back. As others have said, she simply cannot turn up on the yard and go through some comical attempt to undermine your care of him (which she will clearly try to do from the sound of things) Once she replies to that email you will a) hopefully get your £1k back or b) decide whether to proceed to getting a lawer, which I think would be imperative. I know you feel that you love the horse already, I feel so sad for you but I PROMISE you that you will love your next horse too. Good luck and let us know how you get on. Sending you a big hug and a virtual glass (bottle?!?) of wine! Keira x

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Any update OP?