'No horse is 100% sound' - Discuss

[dapple_grey]

I've heard the above phrase a lot recently and can't decide where I stand on it. What do other people think?

On the one hand, I can appreciate it's not black and white and there are a lot of horses not fully sound and yet out doing a job. You only have to go to your local show to see that. But does that make it okay? Especially knowing how well horses mask pain.

A friend of mine often says they'd accept 1 10th lame as normal, but in my experience low grade lameness can still mean something nasty underlying. I've seen suspensory injuries and neurological problems present as such, but it doesn't make it any less serious.

My vet is the owner of his own practice, and never uses the words 'sound' or 'lame', but will say the horse looks comfortable or less comfortable. So I imagine he also thinks you're not going to get a perfectly sound horse, and there are varying levels of comfort that he would accept. I understand this too. It did however make it difficult trying to gage whether to ride my horse as part of his rehab, as I personally didn't want to ride a lame youngster. 'Does he look sound to you', 'he certainly looks more comfortable' 'Yes but does he look SOUND?'

I had to have said horse PTS last year, yet he was 'only' 1-2 10th lame initially and still damaged beyond repair. Had I thought that was an acceptable level of soundness and carried on (as plenty of people would), he would have suffered greatly. I've read a few threads on here where people have been in a similar position, the horse is so compromised and damaged to the point of PTS but still only very low grade lame.

Is it an excuse to keep riding lame horses? Or should we accept that all horses will have 'something' but if they can still do a job then it's okay? Again I appreciate it's not black and white, so interested to hear other people's thoughts.

 

[LEC]

I am obsessed with soundness. I want them to do a job (eventing) so its only right that they are 100%. I am over paranoid so probably see lameness when there isn't any sometimes!
I also have one who is 1/10 - we bute tested, x rayed etc and made no change but 2 years in a field did improve it from 2/10 to 1/10 and even then most people would struggle to see it. I have her on loan to a completely unambitious friend where I am happy about her being worked as its light work and the horse has a great life mostly in a straightline out hacking. I don't really have an issue with it as she either stays in work or she is dead...... I think you just need to be practical about it all. If the horse doesn't show pain or issues and is happy with what they are being asked and you are listening to them.

I also know of advanced event horses which have a ridiculous level of intervention to keep them on the road and I am not comfortable with that.

Ultimately if you watch feral horses then a lot are not truly sound either.....

Lameness is a complicated issue:

• Feet and foot balance is a big issue and most people take no time to educate themselves properly.
• Upbringing of the horse - herd, hills and space.
• Genetics
• Size of horse
• Conformation
• Production and riding
• Correct work at the right time
• Early medical intervention for issues.
• Amount of work
• Luck

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Is it an excuse to keep riding lame horses?

No, it really isn't.. went to a (new) RC rally last weekend. A lovely 6yo gelding in the class. Rider had spurs and a whip, gelding very behind the leg and IMO a good 4/10th lame behind. She said he had a stifle issue but its been treated and he is fine now. Horse was clearly struggling, stopping, refusing to go forward, being kicked with spurs and whipped. Extremely uncomfortable to watch.

I think if horses could talk a lot would be in pain. I do think if you dig deep enough, your find 'something' with most horses (such as something noticed on x-ray) but it doesn't always affect them.

 

[Boulty]

It’s a difficult one… I think there are circumstances where if doing things appropriately you can work an unsound horse towards a better degree of soundness. (In a way that just throwing them out in the field may not achieve)

A horse with hock arthritis may not be 100% sound but will benefit from movement that helps maintain muscle tone and range of movement.

A horse with kissing spines will benefit from work to strengthen their core & back but may not be sound at the start of that work.

A horse with foot problems going through barefoot rehab will not be completely sound in all paces on all surfaces but will need movement and stimulation over surfaces they are comfortable on to improve overall soundness and the level of “sound” that is acceptable at the start of that journey will often be different to what is acceptable at the end (as hopefully there should be an improvement in how the horse is landing and increase in stride length etc)

I don’t think it should be seen as the norm for a horse to be unsound and it not be investigated why / steps taken to try and improve things though.

IME it can be really difficult to get vets to take low level lameness / unlevelness / just being not quite right seriously and actually investigate it properly though. I’ve had circumstances where myself, trimmer & physio have all been saying there’s something going on in a certain area & vet has point blank refused to do anything as their eye just was not good enough to see it (when I eventually met someone who DID take us seriously there WERE multiple issues that would have shown up on X-ray)

 

[sportsmansB]

My pet hate is horses which are likely bilaterally lame but obviously unless nerve blocked this doesn't show up until a full performance work up is done - which is often a last resort rather than a first one.
Competition people are likely to call a vet if their horse is obviously lame (after a week or so to see if it goes away itself, obvs...) but not necessarily if it is not. In fact often times I hear 'there's nothing wrong, he's not lame' but those sore in both won't be that clearly lame, It needs someone who knows how the horse normally moves to see a difference until a block is done

 

[Cortez]

I won't ride a lame horse, nor will I drug one to be able to do so. I know many, many people do, and get very cross when you tell them you wouldn't do it.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I do think that often the 'they need to keep moving' argument is flawed, as any movement that is beneficial for them will be even more beneficial without someone sitting on top of them adding more weight to it, but then many people will always have an excuse as to why they can't do the work needed in hand..

I have the vet coming out tomorrow on the basis of a gut feeling that somethings niggling him, but with no lameness to actually go on that I can see.. it might be neurotics and OTT-ness from me, or it might be something, but I'd always err on the side of caution. I find it odd with people that crack on regardless, as you have no idea what you may be making worse.

 

[TheMule]

Sadly it seems that most people just can’t see/ feel it, even when it seems blatantly obvious to most others.
But we also need instructors/ judges/ professionals to speak up and inform these people, even if that’s an uncomfortable conversation.

 

[dapple_grey]

Sadly it seems that most people just can’t see/ feel it, even when it seems blatantly obvious to most others.
But we also need instructors/ judges/ professionals to speak up and inform these people, even if that’s an uncomfortable conversation.

Unfortunately you're right. I pointed out to a friend that a social media influencer's horse showed what I thought to be obvious forelimb lameness. She couldn't see it despite there being quite a prominent head bob! A mare that I ride regularly had started to feel shuffly/not right behind with zero impulsion, turned out to have bi-lateral hindlimb lameness. Her owner couldn't feel it at all.

 

[teapot]

Sadly it seems that most people just can’t see/ feel it, even when it seems blatantly obvious to most others.
But we also need instructors/ judges/ professionals to speak up and inform these people, even if that’s an uncomfortable conversation.

Can we add some riding schools to that list? People learn to ride on questionably unsound horses, never develop feel, then go out and buy something that feels identical because they don't know any different (through no fault of their own )

 

[Cortez]

Unfortunately you're right. I pointed out to a friend that a social media influencer's horse showed what I thought to be obvious forelimb lameness. She couldn't see it despite there being quite a prominent head bob! A mare that I ride regularly had started to feel shuffly/not right behind with zero impulsion, turned out to have bi-lateral hindlimb lameness. Her owner couldn't feel it at all.

Yes, this is part of the problem in that people can't detect lameness: I used to see it all the time when judging, and people REALLY don't like having it pointed out either, most of the time. The other arm of that is the people who don't care and will ride the horse anyway, or simply deny the fact. Depressing, and awful for the horses, poor things.

 

[I'm Dun]

Over the many years I've been involved with horses I have probably seen less than 10 completely and totally sound issue free animals. I've seen lots of very fit for purpose but probably has a small niggle or something not quite right with their conformation/foot balance/joints etc. Very minor and wouldn't stop me from working them. Sadly I've seen hundreds that are lame and shouldn't be ridden and people have no idea.

I am notorious for thinking everything is lame. Thats because they are! I only found out the other day the neurodivergent peoples brains tend to be set up to be amazing pattern spotters, so I guess thats why lameness is so obvious to me and others can't see it.

 

[Birker2020]

If you have a lame horse you get it investigated. You then go down the treatment route. If treatment works you go back to previous level of work, if the horse doesn't stand up to it you drop down a level. It's that simple.

My own vet has said that throughout his career (25 yrs) he could count the number of sound horses that he has seen on one hand.

My friend suggested yesterday that maybe I should consider buying something that doesn't move 100% well myself. I'm thinking she might have a point. Most of the horses I see on HQ on a flat work video appear to me to not be sound, they always seem to have some issue. Maybe their gait has been comparable with one of my horses gaits back in the 90's early 2000's and I used to compete and not have problem's either not noticing or the horses were sound just not moving great. But by not moving great does that mean they are lame? I'm not sure.

So when I see on HQ a horse that appears to actually be sound but then is being offered at what I have found (through 2 years studying the market) to be low priced, I begin to ask myself why.

I walk and I am not in pain (on pain killers/anti inflammatories) but I've been told I lurch to the right when I walk. This is an over compensatory movement pattern, due I suspect to being thrown off my horses back, rotating completely in the air and landing flat on my back way back in 2014.

I went on to develop left sacral illiac joint arthritis which i still suffer from. But when I walk, on the whole I'm not in pain. As a result of lurching to the right whilst walking, i have an over developed right calf muscle. None of this I felt or knew about until my friend who is an vet physio told me!

I also have foot issues due to all this going on. I bet if you saw me walk a circle I'dlook decidedly 'lame' but I don't hurt. So my understanding is that just because a horse can look lame, doesn't necessarily mean it is.

I know not everyone will see it that way though. In my experience a horse will soon tell you it's in pain, and they are not short on coming forwards, they will let you know and it upto you to hear them whispering before it goes to shouting or screaming volume.

.

 

[w1bbler]

My vets wife competes alot. Chatting to him recently he commented that he hates going to competitions with her as he struggles to look the other way with so many lame horses

 

[Hallo2012]

I am obsessed with soundness. I want them to do a job (eventing) so its only right that they are 100%. I am over paranoid so probably see lameness when there isn't any sometimes!
I also have one who is 1/10 - we bute tested, x rayed etc and made no change but 2 years in a field did improve it from 2/10 to 1/10 and even then most people would struggle to see it. I have her on loan to a completely unambitious friend where I am happy about her being worked as its light work and the horse has a great life mostly in a straightline out hacking. I don't really have an issue with it as she either stays in work or she is dead...... I think you just need to be practical about it all. If the horse doesn't show pain or issues and is happy with what they are being asked and you are listening to them.

I also know of advanced event horses which have a ridiculous level of intervention to keep them on the road and I am not comfortable with that.

Ultimately if you watch feral horses then a lot are not truly sound either.....

Lameness is a complicated issue:

• Feet and foot balance is a big issue and most people take no time to educate themselves properly.
• Upbringing of the horse - herd, hills and space.
• Genetics
• Size of horse
• Conformation
• Production and riding
• Correct work at the right time
• Early medical intervention for issues.
• Amount of work
• Luck

this.

also have one who is about 1/10 on a circle but is going off to do hacking and in hand. He is super happy doing that and his new rider is super happy with him.

for what I want to do (PSG+) they need to be 100% IMO

 

[dapple_grey]

I am notorious for thinking everything is lame. Thats because they are! I only found out the other day the neurodivergent peoples brains tend to be set up to be amazing pattern spotters, so I guess thats why lameness is so obvious to me and others can't see it.

Me too, although I struggle to see very low grade lameness I still feel like I see unsound horses everywhere. A friend of mine is eagle-eyed when it comes to spotting lameness, so when I was on the horse search I sent her lots of videos of prospective horses. She'd often spot things and although she never said it I imagine she probably thought 'how can you not see that' too!

I find it's easier to see when you let your eyes go soft. A lot of lame horses 'catch my eye' when I'm not properly looking at them, as my brain registers it as an uneven pattern/gait.

 

[dapple_grey]

In my experience a horse will soon tell you it's in pain, and they are not short on coming forwards, they will let you know and it upto you to hear them whispering before it goes to shouting or screaming volume.

As someone who tries their upmost to listen to the whispering, it's very hard watching on as other people ignore the shouting

 

[clinkerbuilt]

Can we add some riding schools to that list? People learn to ride on questionably unsound horses, never develop feel, then go out and buy something that feels identical because they don't know any different (through no fault of their own )

oh god yes

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I won't ride a lame horse, nor will I drug one to be able to do so. I know many, many people do, and get very cross when you tell them you wouldn't do it.

Me neither.

B is presenting as fully sound in straight line at walk, 1/10 off in trot straight line.
on a turn or circle is at lest 2/10 lame.
She's currently without shoes since May and field loafing as a companion with me, not requiring meds at present.

I've been told by a few friends to 'pop a bute in as she just needs a little med to join us out riding' they don't seem to understand, just No!

 

[dapple_grey]

I do think that often the 'they need to keep moving' argument is flawed, as any movement that is beneficial for them will be even more beneficial without someone sitting on top of them adding more weight to it, but then many people will always have an excuse as to why they can't do the work needed in hand..

I have the vet coming out tomorrow on the basis of a gut feeling that somethings niggling him, but with no lameness to actually go on that I can see.. it might be neurotics and OTT-ness from me, or it might be something, but I'd always err on the side of caution. I find it odd with people that crack on regardless, as you have no idea what you may be making worse.

Sorry to hear this and hope all goes well with the vet today. I don't think I could ignore and crack on either, I worry enough when there's probably nothing there let alone when there is!

 

[Beausmate]

You don't necessarily have to see it or feel it. I find it useful to hear a horse trot up on a hard surface without looking at it. There are a lot of lame horses in my area - I can't hear them trotting past my house!

 

[Love]

I freelance for a handful of photography companies that cover equine events (of all disciplines). The amount of (very obviously) lame horses I see competing is far far higher than I ever realised from when I was just a fellow competitor....

 

[Goldenstar]

When I was young horses were sound or unsound it was very black and white .
This was mainly based on the fact the options for diagnosis and treatment were limited .
Horses were also much slimmer and fitter than is normal today.
It’s a hugely complicated area to deal with now .
Many things affect the horse’s ability to be comfortable in their work .
I have bought a good few vet failures taking the judgement that after a diet and regular work and suppleing and core work they will be sound .
I also do think that horses with arthritis do better with appropriate work .

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I worked Lottie through unsounbess BUT under vet supervisuon with a diagnosis and rehab plan. I think it is often used as an excuse. People use all sorts of euphemisms for LAME: weak behind, stiff, unbalanced, functionally sound etc.

I read the other day that a horse's curse is they can't cry. Imagine if your horse yelped whenever you got on it's back or took up a contact. Instead of swishing a tail, humping a back or opening a mouth.

 

[Fransurrey]

It’s a difficult one… I think there are circumstances where if doing things appropriately you can work an unsound horse towards a better degree of soundness. (In a way that just throwing them out in the field may not achieve)

My boy probably falls into that. He can be behind the leg and sluggish if his PSSM1 is symptomatic, but 99 % of the time he gets back from a hack much more lively and free walking. We do only hack, though.

 

[Tarragon]

I agree with Birker.
There is a difference between looking lame and being lame. If I was a horse I would be pigeon toed, have a really odd action and wear my shoes unevenly, and I would probably not pass a 5* vet. Yet, I am not in pain and capable of most activities a fit and healthy 62 years old is capable of!
I might wake up a bit sore one day, having overdone the digging in the garden, or climbed Snowdon, and take things a bit slowly that day, but if I was told to stay in bed all day I would be up in arms!
Very few horses are 100% sound, and that is sound on the day, but a good owner will notice and treat and adjust work load accordingly.
Absolutely, it would be wrong to push a horse through pain, or mask the pain so that the horse can work beyond where it is proper.

 

[Smitty]

I will always remember a 4* eventer trotting towards me on a Badminton horse that had been purchased from another 4* eventer by a third party for them to compete. It looked lame to me. I was astonished. It never ran well with the new rider, who apparently had cautioned the third party about buying it in the first place.

 

[blitznbobs]

Define sound ….?

 

[Cortez]

I might wake up a bit sore one day, having overdone the digging in the garden, or climbed Snowdon, and take things a bit slowly that day, but if I was told to stay in bed all day I would be up in arms!
Very few horses are 100% sound, and that is sound on the day, but a good owner will notice and treat and adjust work load accordingly.
Absolutely, it would be wrong to push a horse through pain, or mask the pain so that the horse can work beyond where it is proper.

The difference is you have a voice, and a choice.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Define sound ….?

Physically and emotionally comfortable to do whatever job is being asked, without apparent compensatory movement patterns.

In practice all you can do is look out for lameness and those compensations. Because they point to pain and we cannot possibly know how much and how the horse feels about it. Plus behavioural reactions.

Amber is 1/10th lame on a tight circle to the right on soft ground. That is it. But that lameness is enough to make her bronc when landing from a jump, ridden or on a lunge because she both has a lameness present and reacts negatively. Id havwe retired on both grounds. Jenny has dodgy foot balance from poor hoof comformation (mild club foot). Remedial farriery keeps her sound. So I am fairly sure she truly is physically and emotionally comfortable, though without shoes she wouldn't be.