'No horse is 100% sound' - Discuss

[Tarragon]

The difference is you have a voice, and a choice.

I do agree with you, and people who treat horses like machines are not even trying to empathise. The term "Jumping Machine" is one of my pet hates.
But a good horse owner can observe and feel the signals that their horse is showing and interpret and react. True, some owners are better than others in being receptive to the signs, but that will always be the case. I used to exercise hunters, and up that hill they will trot - until I started running myself and realised that you can have off days without actually being ill. One day, running was easy, and the next my legs felt like lead! I was much more sympathetic to the horses after that.
So, it is the owner who can give the horse a voice and a choice.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Sorry to hear this and hope all goes well with the vet today. I don't think I could ignore and crack on either, I worry enough when there's probably nothing there let alone when there is!

Not to derail the thread but as you had replied I thought I would update that all was okay and vet said he looks totally sound, so must have been an off couple of days or he had @rseache, or just growing. Relief!! He'll still have the rest of the week off just in case I think, no harm in having a break.

 

[JGC]

I don't believe the not being sound bit. I do believe that all horses have some kind issue somewhere in the same way that all people do - but they might never been affected by it, IYSWIM!

But no, if mine any kind of lameness, they get investigated and not ridden. As someone else said, many tendon/ligament injuries present with very little lameness. The horse in my avatar had a big hole in a suspensory and was only ever 2/10 lame on it! I myself damaged a tendon in my leg and it never made me walk particularly funny and I could run when warmed up without pain, but it was extremely painful at rest, so if I'd have been a horse, the signs of pain would only have been resting a leg, maybe a pinched face, maybe girthy!

They can't tell us how bad the pain is and they're more or less genetically programmed to hide pain for survival purposes.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I don’t think any living thing is always comfortable.

The issue is that a lot of people don’t listen to horses when they express that they are too uncomfortable to do something.

I can tell my PT when I’m approaching my limit but horses can often only tell you when they have hit theirs.

 

[eggs]

here. A friend of mine is eagle-eyed when it comes to spotting lameness, so when I was on the horse search I sent her lots of videos of prospective horses. She'd often spot things and although she never said it I imagine she probably thought 'how can you not see that' too!

I find it's easier to see when you let your eyes go soft. A lot of lame horses 'catch my eye' when I'm not properly looking at them, as my brain registers it as an uneven pattern/gait.

Funnily enough I find it easier to spot lameness if I am not wearing my contact lenses when everything is not quite in focus.

I was at a lecture demo some years back and the question of the trot up at large competitions came up. The vet asked why it was done and when he got the expected answer of 'to make sure the horse is sound' he caveated it with 'to make sure the horse is sound enough to continue in the competition' - a subtle but significant difference.

 

[Celtic Jewel]

in Ireland people literally don’t care, they will only do a investigation if the horse is very obvious hoping lame but most of the time they are just put in a field for a few weeks and then riding again without getting a vet to investigate it then retire when the horse doesn’t come sound and you will get a bad reputation if you say the horse is lame. 5 years ago I was in a yard all the horses were lame . Only two horses where sound in the entire yard they all had problems but nobody would admit it because they couldn’t afford the vet bill or didn’t want to retire there horses.

 

[Michen]

Yes, this is part of the problem in that people can't detect lameness: I used to see it all the time when judging, and people REALLY don't like having it pointed out either, most of the time. The other arm of that is the people who don't care and will ride the horse anyway, or simply deny the fact. Depressing, and awful for the horses, poor things.

Exactly but if you can't detect lameness (I can't detect minor hind limb lameness for sure), you should spend the money to have it assessed. I always had Boggle flexed every three months to keep on top of his hock arthiritis, yes managed with injections which I know is not what you would do.

I did this because I knew if he was mildly lame I wouldn't know. Therefore it's important to catch it before it becomes a problem and does other damage elsewhere.

Not that it helps my current situation with him but it did mean many happy seasons eventing where he was kept sound, feeling and looking amazing, and he never had any issues that were compensatory to the hocks.

It annoys me so much that people spend xxx on matchy sets and bit fitters yet can't get their horses a basic lameness check.

 

[lauragreen85]

depends on what you mean sound? Are we talking kissing spine with ligament snips, are these sound ?

 

[I'm Dun]

Funnily enough I find it easier to spot lameness if I am not wearing my contact lenses when everything is not quite in focus.

I tell people who struggle to see lameness to do similar, not stare hard, but with soft eyes just let the horse move past them and listen to the hoof beats. Just take in the overall picture. Unless your a vet you don't need to know which limb/joint etc, you just need to know there's an issue and almost everyone can see it when they do that.

 

[Sophstar]

When my boy went for a lameness work up at the vets and diagnosed with significant sidebone in one foot, the vet said he would never be 100% sound. Instead of defining him as lame she simply asked me what I envisioned his job workload to be and gave her view as to whether this was suitable. She said lameness work ups and the results are not to confirm basic soundness v lameness but ensure the owner's expectations are managed in line with the reality of the problem faced. It's rare to get a completely sound horse. As long as you don't treat your horse like a machine and know the cause, the management and know their limitations and are willing to be flexible with adapting their job both type and amount when you identify it's getting it worse or just having an off day then people should recognise 100% soundness is a rare sight and for the lucky few. On a bad day my boy doesn't head nod at all when trotting but I know his movement so well that I can see the ever so subtle signs to say his foot is sore and he gets a few days off.

 

[tristars]

To me it's important to look at how a horse is holding itself whenever it moves, whether I am looking out of the window watching the antics, i which involve some serious acrobatics and high speed galloping with sudden halts, or just leading across the concrete in a relaxed walk, to get a feel for how they are moving

Then when riding if they can relax and become loose throughout the body or are they holding something, it's easy to pick up on not quite right when first getting on board when they are cold

There is so many things that may not be quite right, that could be right if a horse has its weakest areas identified in early training and slowly strengthened, so they do not develop into problems further down the road, it's not just Injuries that make a horse unsound, or heredity

How many horses could have been sound or lastest into old age if their work had been planned around their welfare

 

[Hormonal Filly]

No, it really isn't.. went to a (new) RC rally last weekend. A lovely 6yo gelding in the class. Rider had spurs and a whip, gelding very behind the leg and IMO a good 4/10th lame behind. She said he had a stifle issue but its been treated and he is fine now. Horse was clearly struggling, stopping, refusing to go forward, being kicked with spurs and whipped. Extremely uncomfortable to watch.

I think if horses could talk a lot would be in pain. I do think if you dig deep enough, your find 'something' with most horses (such as something noticed on x-ray) but it doesn't always affect them.

To make things worse, just seen on socials the owner of said horse has just booked into two show jumping classes for the riding club this weekend.

How do riders not feel the lameness when its that obvious?

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

To make things worse, just seen on socials the owner of said horse has just booked into two show jumping classes for the riding club this weekend.

How do riders not feel the lameness when its that obvious?

Can the RC not intervene? Surely if it's that bad you wouldn't want to have this representing the club?

-

I find the conversations about soundness very interesting. I think it is difficult to really learn about it, particularly as an RS rider. Comments (albeit made to me privately and kindly) about past videos I put up on here, so pleased with them, to look back with those comments in mind was really hard. As a novice, I have to put trust in the people teaching me and caring for the horses I ride; I no longer ride at that RS. Sharing can be even worse; all you can do is tactfully feedback to owners what you notice but ultimately you have to walk away if you are concerned and nothing is happening.

I am particularly interested in the rider-horse biomechanics interaction and how our own strengths/weaknesses/tensions etc. influence how horses go. It does make me more cautious to look at a horse I don't know being ridden and say 'that's lame' because I think if you haven't seen it over a period of time, in different situations, and how it presents unridden you probably don't have enough information.

This thread reminds me about a link to a research project I posted on here a while ago which some forum members including myself participated in. I shall have a look to see if it has been written up/publicised yet as it sounded like a very interesting and useful study on perceptions of lameness and at what point people would seek veterinary advice.

I do think any riding/fitness/rehab through a problem needs to be done with vet and/or physio supervision. I see a physio for myself and this has ruled out actual injury (not that it was suspected) so a lot of what we do is about mobility, reducing excessive muscle tension, and building strength. In a graded way! So I think there must be similar things for horses but I would not undertake the work without the sign off from a qualified person.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Can the RC not intervene? Surely if it's that bad you wouldn't want to have this representing the club?

My exact thoughts but its one of the committee members children that rides the horse. others MUST think the same. Might find another RC.

Doesn't help new riders learning on lame riding school ponies, probably makes riders use to a crooked feel.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

My exact thoughts but its one of the committee members children that rides the horse. I'm tempted to join another RC. Makes me sad for the horse.

Oh dear

 

[Annagain]

This is a sensitive subject for me as I've got my amazing gentleman of a horse on box rest at the moment awaiting an MRI. He is the tiniest bit lame on the left fore, only noticeable (during workups) while being lunged on hard ground. The only sign of a problem was him feeling a bit odd (like he was doing a disunited canter but it was in trot, it was very weird, he wasn't landing more heavily on one side it just felt like the order of his legs was wrong) rather than lame at the start of a lesson as I changed onto the left rein. I gave him two more minutes to see if it was jut a wobble but it continued so off I jumped.

6 weeks (mostly on field rest, he's just been on box rest this last week after no improvement in the field) and 3 vet visits later, we're none the wiser other than narrowing it down to the foot with nerve blocks. Xrays are perfect. He may or may not come sound, the MRI won't necessarily help with that, it'll just tell us why but I need to know. I've only had him 2 years after a bit of a rough time with a previous horse and missed most of last year with a slipped disc and sciatica. We were just getting going and I trust him like no other horse, it seems so unfair. There are plenty who would hack him out as he is. I won't. There are plenty who will feel that a horse you've only had two years owes you more so you need him to do something. I don't. He's already given me everything by restoring my faith in the equine race. If he comes sound that great, If he comes sound but I'm told extra pressure of schooling / jumping will compromise that soundness, I'll just hack him. If needs be, he can be a field ornament and I'll love him every bit as much. The one thing I won't accept though is "sound enough" he is either sound or he isn't.

I also have my 30 year old who won't be going through another winter. Last winter was hard on him (not foot related, just lost a lot of weight and had a few other issues) and again, he owes me nothing. I did continue to hack him after he was diagnosed with coffin joint arthritis at 12 but I seriously curtailed his work. He had the joint medicated at 12 and it didn't need doing again until he was 22. He genuinely didn't take another lame step in that time (well he took about 5 being a drama queen about standing on a stone but you know what I mean!). He had it medicated again but when he needed it doing again after 2 years, I decided to retire him. 2 years at 24, after 12 years of likely further degeneration (we didn't xray a 2nd time), wasn't long enough to justify trying it again in my opinion. Again "sound enough" was not a consideration. He came totally sound after treatment but I was told that more than hacking (and light schooling but he hated it) would compromise that so we didn't do it. After the second lot of treatment, he came sound again but not for long enough so I called it a day.

 

[honetpot]

I used to have a horse with navicular, so became a very good judge of that very edge of being lame, not usually visable to the eye, more like a hesitance, that I could feel.
If you think of lameness as disturbance of normal a regular rythm there are some horses that because of how they are worked, or just how they are made will never have a regular pattern of landing their hooves. Like people they always favour one leg, people tend to strike off with the same leg, so to muscle evenly you have to work the 'weak' side more, so you can improve how he horse lands its hooves, and to most people the lag will never be apparent, but you can feel the weaker side, and the horse has to adjust, say as you change the diagonal, and if they are physically stressed they then can look short. IMO good consistant work and riding improves the horse and you are less likely to get visable to the eye lameness because you have done as much as you can to develope them physically to compensate for a weakness.
I like road work, not just for work on a usually even surface, but because I can hear the hoof fall, when you are riding young horses you can often hear a change even before they react to something, and it get you used to their working hoof pattern, and you match how it sounds to how it feels.
Our old PC pony ridden he could sometimes feel very uneven, but to the eye always looked sound. I bought from a friend who said if she had ridden him she would never have bought him, I think he had miss matched confirmation that he just compenstated for, and on the road he sounded like in walked in pairs.

 

[3 bays and a grey]

I’m that type of person that if I stare at a horse long enough I’ll say it’s lame! My horse was recently diagnosed with arthritis in his pastern joint. Had him from breeder unbroken 3yr old so know all of his history. Never jumped him as I wanted to do dressage. I’ve done 1 ridden dressage test with him (walk & trot) and now 12 years down the line he’s having to have 1 Bute a day at the age of 15. Vet have told me to keep him in work, so he gets ridden 3 times a week. Don’t do road work, don’t go out on hard fields it’s always the arena. But I’ve had comments from other people that I shouldn’t be riding a horse that’s on Bute. He wasn’t even 1 10th lame (vets words) but I could feel he just didn’t feel quite right. I know that the arthritis will get worse and when it does I’ll listen to my horse and retire him from riding. However what gets me angry is same people who said I shouldn’t be riding a horse on Bute, took their horse to a pole clinic even though it’s started rearing and not wanting to go forward, oh and hasn’t felt quite right for a couple of weeks (actually said those words out of their mouth) get away with it! So it’s a hard one, I think if you were to lunge a certain amount of horses on a soft or hard surface 90% of them wouldn’t be 100%