No place for live-and-let-live in an intolerant world; will hunting survive?

[honetpot]

Perhaps I have just been very lucky. In my twenties I was anti-hunting, I then saw how hunting actually worked and how much land owners had put in the development of the country side. I went hunting to see for myself, to see how it actually worked, and made my mind up on balance there were more positives than negatives and there was more , animal distress caused by the farm practices at the time. This was when I stopped eating meat. Most of there are now outlawed here, so like plastic waste we have shipped our problem abroad.

As to yobs on the roads. Live in any town with a league football clubs and there are plenty to be seen on match days, I resent having to pay for their control. The violence they attract it seems at any level is unbelievable all in the name of sport, were people are abused and beaten up, on the basis of their race or the colour of their scarf.
I have lived in two hunting areas and I have never had problems with the hounds, the MFH always contacted me, when they were going to be near my paddock, but he can only contact you if he or his staff know you.
To be honest where I live now I am more bothered by people shooting which seems some weekends to go on all day, and pop up all over. Some of the members local shoot were sexist louts judging by there language in the pub.

I used to take my children hunting, and run the gauntlet of the anti's which they we taught to smile sweetly at and be very polite to. Going way out of sight of the anti's was nothing to do with keeping it secret, why court trouble when you can avoid it? No one in their right mind would seek confrontation, where someone on 500kg animal is always going the look intimidating, just by being on a horse.

 

[Isbister]

That's a bit short-sighted of you... how do you know these people don't understand? Plenty of anti-hunt people used to hunt (and have seen the horrific end to a supposedly legal hunt). Plenty of vegans were meat eaters. In fact, many farmers lead the compassion argument in farming - it's thanks to them we have the highest livestock welfare in the world.

Since when has being intolerant to cruelty been joyless fascism? Brexit has nothing to do with it.

The hunt (shoots/fox/drag/fishing etc) will never save the countryside. They think they will, bless them, but people need housing. There's a lot of people sitting on acres and acres of green belt building sites just waiting for the developer to come knocking. Believe me.

Are you talking about hunting pre-ban? Accidental kills, perhaps?

I've seen more than a few kills, but none were 'horrific' - swift and clean are the adjectives that come to mind. The corpse being torn apart by hounds is something that generally happens post mortem, but either way, it's a far swifter end than other ways of controlling foxes such as poisoning or shooting them. I've had maggoty and poisoned foxes dying in my garden before now and it's not a nice end.

Are there many antis who used to hunt? How anyone could ever have gone hunting in the first place, yet had not the slightest inkling of what was going to happen, what the ultimate purpose was, and what this might mean in terms of what they might see, seems a bit of a puzzle.

The arguments and overly emotive language touted by antis online suggest to me an almost wilful inability to understand the full picture. Controlling the fox has to be done one way or another.

 

[meleeka]

I don’t think it’s the actual kill that people generally have a problem with, it’s the chase before it and the fact that people are getting enjoyment from controlling the fox population, rather than doing it solely because it needs to be done. It’s the idea of posh people riding roughshod over the country getting a thrill out of chasing a wild animal that people object to,
not the controlling of foxes.

I think hunting with dogs will die out just because the land available is shrinking at an alarming rate or it certainly is where I live. What used to be strategic gaps with farmland is now being built on.

 

[Rowreach]

I don’t think it’s the actual kill that people generally have a problem with, it’s the chase before it and the fact that people are getting enjoyment from controlling the fox population, rather than doing it solely because it needs to be done. It’s the idea of posh people riding roughshod over the country getting a thrill out of chasing a wild animal that people object to,
not the controlling of foxes.

I think hunting with dogs will die out just because the land available is shrinking at an alarming rate or it certainly is where I live. What used to be strategic gaps with farmland is now being built on.

I think you are right, the shrinking country, major roads and increase in traffic will stop it long before the antis will.

I was lucky enough to spend nearly 20 years hunting with a truly professional huntsman who had a huge respect for the countryside and its wildlife, and an amazing rapport with his hounds. It was a smallish pack and I never felt there was any glorification in controlling foxes this way. However, once a year we were visited by a very well known "posh" pack, and were expected to show them a good day (which usually meant using the prime country with the most jumps and giving them a bit of a hooley), but their behaviour when hounds did in fact get a fox was absolutely abhorrent - baying, laughing, trying to get close enough to see what was happening - quite disgusting and certainly made me question their mentality

 

[tallyho!]

Are you talking about hunting pre-ban? Accidental kills, perhaps?

I've seen more than a few kills, but none were 'horrific' - swift and clean are the adjectives that come to mind. The corpse being torn apart by hounds is something that generally happens post mortem, but either way, it's a far swifter end than other ways of controlling foxes such as poisoning or shooting them. I've had maggoty and poisoned foxes dying in my garden before now and it's not a nice end.

Are there many antis who used to hunt? How anyone could ever have gone hunting in the first place, yet had not the slightest inkling of what was going to happen, what the ultimate purpose was, and what this might mean in terms of what they might see, seems a bit of a puzzle.

The arguments and overly emotive language touted by antis online suggest to me an almost wilful inability to understand the full picture. Controlling the fox has to be done one way or another.

People can and do change their minds about things.

 

[splashgirl45]

Unfortunately, I think Joe Public's view of hunting, including drag hunting, is probably influenced by what they see of a hunt. I've either been right in the thick of, or associated with, the following on a regular basis:


Filling a pub at the meet with excited loud talking people wearing fancy dress who don't give the regulars a chance to get to the bar to place an order.
Parking lorries and trailers blocking small roads so other vehicles can't get through.
Parking heavy vehicles on pristine grass verges leaving dreadful ruts in them.
Holding up traffic for an unacceptable length of time by riding in a long pack or crossing over roads.
Hounds with disturbing scarring from hunt activity (kennel fights, barbed wire, etc)
People holding up traffic while cleaning down horses in the road before loading to go home.
Dirty, sometimes very dirty, excited loud talking people in the pub after the meet.
Pub car parks left full of horse shit.
Etc.




Because some of you do. It's open knowledge that some hunts are deliberately laying very weak trails so that they have a legal excuse when their hounds 'accidentally' follow a fox trail. And in my area it is open knowledge in the hunting community that the midweek hunts in particular deliberately hunt fox. At a drag hunt once several years ago now, I was invited by someone who knows me very well to go out with a fox pack on a weekday. I asked her if they were going to hunt fox, and she looked at me a bit surprised and said 'yes of course'.

A while ago now the SNP scuppered David Cameron's plan to change the law so that more than two dogs could be used to flush to a gun. If that law had gone through, it would have made a conviction for illegal hunting nigh on impossible if anyone in the mounted or unmounted followers had been carrying a gun. The fight to continue hunting is still very strong more than a decade later.

Sabbing is continuing because there is a hard core of hunting still going on. When it stops, so will sabbing (but not dislike of other hunt behaviour) and the organised sabs will move on to shooting and possibly fishing.

yes they will move on to shooting because that is seen as a posh persons sport, fishing will be safe as it is seen as not a posh sport but a working mans hobby.....the hunting debate was never about killing foxes, it was about persecuting the posh people....foxes are still being legally killed by gun because in some areas they are causing havoc but how accurate are the marksmen, how many foxes are killed outright? i am neither for or against fox hunting but i am concerned that animals may not be killed with one shot and will be left maimed to die slowly...

 

[tallyho!]

Hahaha!! Persecuting posh people??!?

 

[splashgirl45]

Hahaha!! Persecuting posh people??!?

are you agreeing or not? in case you wonder i am definitely not posh, you would know the minute i spoke, and also couldnt afford to go hunting even if i wanted to (which i donr)

 

[Versatile]

The sabs have formed in here in Ireland too where fox hunting is legal. I’d have to disagree with the person saying the members have bad manners, at least for my local hunts.

There are two local hunt clubs in my area and they aren’t big enough to cause huge disruption as described in other posts. The locals like to see them and come out to the village to see them off. They only come here twice a year.

The only nay sayers would be the animal cruelty crowd obviously. I’ve never heard people giving out about disruption.

I haven’t hunted myself in around five years or so.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Are there many antis who used to hunt? How anyone could ever have gone hunting in the first place, yet had not the slightest inkling of what was going to happen, what the ultimate purpose was, and what this might mean in terms of what they might see, seems a bit of a puzzle.

Like honetpot, I rationalised my years of hunting because I believe that the countryside in general, and foxes in particular, were better managed in the days of legal hunting. I knew we were out to do a job, which was to catch the fox, but was always happy if we got a good run and ended up giving it best.

The day I was most uncomfortable was one where we ran the fox to ground. They dug it out, with hounds surrounding the hole, waiting for the fox to bolt. Out it shot, and scarpered, leaving the hounds looking rather silly. The younger members of the field may have cheered were very relieved, as we did not think that was sporting at all. I recall we got a bolloxing. An incident like this could easily have put a sensitive soul off - I wouldn't have been happy if it was routine, but it only happened once.

 

[Isbister]

I don’t think it’s the actual kill that people generally have a problem with, it’s the chase before it and the fact that people are getting enjoyment from controlling the fox population, rather than doing it solely because it needs to be done. It’s the idea of posh people riding roughshod over the country getting a thrill out of chasing a wild animal that people object to,
not the controlling of foxes.

I think hunting with dogs will die out just because the land available is shrinking at an alarming rate or it certainly is where I live. What used to be strategic gaps with farmland is now being built on.

It may be the perception that the hunt get a thrill from persecuting foxes - that is the idea that the antis like to cultivate. I can only say that, from my own participation in different hunts, the enjoyment was derived principally from the riding and the sheer unpredictability of the chase. A lot happens on the spur of the moment. I have never seen any glorification or revelling in the kill that some have reported seeing, though I'm not saying it hasn't happened. Certainly some people resent seeing other people enjoying themselves.

 

[tallyho!]

If the hunt really were serious about controlling fox population, then they ought to be hunting out in towns. Come to our house, we've got at least 8 or 9 of the little bleeders right underneath my shed.

 

[Keith_Beef]

If the hunt really were serious about controlling fox population, then they ought to be hunting out in towns. Come to our house, we've got at least 8 or 9 of the little bleeders right underneath my shed.

How many do you need for a coat?

 

[ycbm]

. An incident like this could easily have put a sensitive soul off - I wouldn't have been happy if it was routine, but it only happened once.

Why do you need it to happen more than once that you saw?. It clearly happened often around the country. I don't think you need to be 'a sensitive soul' to find that kind of behaviour unacceptable.

I went cubbing once. It was the most disgusting thing I've ever experienced with a horse.

Spoiler: Cubbing, don't press if squeamish.

Cubbing was renamed Autumn Hunting as a PR exercise. It is to teach young hounds to kill fox. The followers, mounted and on foot are positioned around a piece of woodland and told to make a lot of noise, either with their voices or banging their boot with their whip. The hounds are put into the covert, the young foxes can't escape because of the followers and the hounds slaughter the cubs. This activity is now completely illegal and I hope has died out.

 

[Mule]

The sabs have formed in here in Ireland too where fox hunting is legal. I’d have to disagree with the person saying the members have bad manners, at least for my local hunts.

There are two local hunt clubs in my area and they aren’t big enough to cause huge disruption as described in other posts. The locals like to see them and come out to the village to see them off. They only come here twice a year.

The only nay sayers would be the animal cruelty crowd obviously. I’ve never heard people giving out about disruption.

I haven’t hunted myself in around five years or so.

There were antis at one of the Clare hunts a couple of weeks ago. Apparently everyone was in shock! Times have really changed. The 'visitors' didn't cause any trouble at least.

 

[Tiddlypom]

ycbm, digging out foxes when the hole was surrounded by hounds wasn't routine when and where I was hunting. Once a fox had gone to ground, IIRC it was normally given best. Maybe it was a known rogue fox that the farmer had especially asked the hunt to target, but I don't remember, it happened back in the 70s. I was outlining for Ibister's benefit why some antis may have previously hunted but seen things which changed their minds, like you after you had been cubbing.

I was recently reading the autobiography of Michael Clayton, the former long time editor of Horse and Hound. It seems that the MFHA did something concrete for once and much later banned the practice of digging out whilst surrounded by hounds, after another pack was seen doing similar.

I think the OP dismissing antis as just being resentful of other folk enjoying themselves is disingenuous.

 

[Isbister]

...
I think the OP dismissing antis as just being resentful of other folk enjoying themselves is disingenuous.

It's a bit more complex than that - there is resentment of a number of things that the hunt represents to those of the anti mindset. The antis also have a rather grim and joyless determination to impose their own view of things.

 

[tallyho!]

Oh poor little Isbister... those grim and joyless anti's spoiling all her/his lovely fun in the countryside and how dare they impose their stupid little opinions... Boo hoo hoo. Come one everyone, lets go chase them away with our keyboards and cups of tea.

 

[Isbister]

Oh poor little Isbister... those grim and joyless anti's spoiling all her/his lovely fun in the countryside and how dare they impose their stupid little opinions... Boo hoo hoo. Come one everyone, lets go chase them away with our keyboards and cups of tea.

I suppose it takes all sorts, but I don't know why you bother posting here, on a forum intended for hunting matters, when I get the impression you don't really approve of hunting.

But perhaps you can explain to me why a group of people engaging in an activity that is entirely legal, on private land and with the owner's permission, should have to endure what in many instances amounts to criminal harassment by masked trespassers? I've seen hunt saboteurs in action on sufficient occasions to have formed the opinion that their real motivation is to try to provoke a confrontation, and if possible a violent one. Their supposed concern for wildlife is pretty much a subterfuge, no more than a flakey pretext and at best formulated on an inconsistent and partial understanding of natural ecology.

 

[meleeka]

It's a bit more complex than that - there is resentment of a number of things that the hunt represents to those of the anti mindset. The antis also have a rather grim and joyless determination to impose their own view of things.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true either. Back to the media, I think people have done a really good job of making it seem as if all hunts still carry out illegal activities so why would peoples opinions have altered?
Being a posh sport isn’t why it’s disliked. I’ve never heard of anyone turning up at a polo match to make sure all is as it should be.

I think pro hunt people also have a determination to impose their views so not so different there. That’s why any hunting threads always turn into arguments, because supporters and anti’s both feel equally as strong on the subject and can’t ever see the other sides point.

 

[Rowreach]

Interesting statement from Cheshire Police ...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-fo...nmFs60Cq0KylLstgwINQsSWrn9mgy3b7AQwznmxP6cilo

 

[tallyho!]

I suppose it takes all sorts, but I don't know why you bother posting here, on a forum intended for hunting matters, when I get the impression you don't really approve of hunting.

But perhaps you can explain to me why a group of people engaging in an activity that is entirely legal, on private land and with the owner's permission, should have to endure what in many instances amounts to criminal harassment by masked trespassers? I've seen hunt saboteurs in action on sufficient occasions to have formed the opinion that their real motivation is to try to provoke a confrontation, and if possible a violent one. Their supposed concern for wildlife is pretty much a subterfuge, no more than a flakey pretext and at best formulated on an inconsistent and partial understanding of natural ecology.

Oh sorry I must’ve missed the instruction I can no longer post if I no longer hunt.

I said I was against idiots that hunt.

 

[GSD Woman]

I recently worked with a man from Scotland. He said in the UK that foxhunting is very much considered a sport of the wealthy and disliked for that reason. In the USA it is mostly wealthy people but the middle class hunts as well. Loss of land is a bigger problem here.

 

[ycbm]

It's a bit more complex than that - there is resentment of a number of things that the hunt represents to those of the anti mindset. The antis also have a rather grim and joyless determination to impose their own view of things.

They may well be. But I'd bet my bottom dollar, in my area at least, that if hunts stop hunting fox and start laying heavy trails that they can call their hounds back to reliably, i.e. an unquestionably legal drag hunt, ,that the Police will have a lot more sympathy with controlling the antis if they know the hunts aren't cocking a snook at the law.

I'd also bet that sab behaviour moves to an entirely different sport and the drag hunters are largely free to enjoy their sport with the odd stupid comment from passers by, just like at present.

 

[ycbm]

Interesting statement from Cheshire Police ...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-fo...nmFs60Cq0KylLstgwINQsSWrn9mgy3b7AQwznmxP6cilo

It's an interesting piece; a plea from the Police about the difficulty of investigation and the time it takes them. They appear to be asking people not to ask them to investigate things posted on social media. How does that fit with other types of crime? If the video of an apparent crime is shown online, they have a duty to investigate. Think how many crimes have been prosecuted after video on social media.. Their request should be to the sabs posting the stuff, not the public for responding. Their request is unreasonable.

I have personally been invited, post ban, to hunt fox. I'd suggest anyone who is concerned about whether illegal hunting still exists goes out on midweek meets to satisfy themselves that the full requirements of the law are being met.

The sabbing problem for hunts laying decently strong trails, able to call their hounds off a fox scent, hunting entirely within both the letter and spirit of the law is a real problem. But until they can persuade all hunts to do the same, this problem will not end.

 

[Rowreach]

It's an interesting piece; a plea from the Police about the difficulty of investigation and the time it takes them. They appear to be asking people not to ask them to investigate things posted on social media. How does that fit with other types of crime? If the video of an apparent crime is shown online, they have a duty to investigate. Think how many crimes have been prosecuted after video on social media.. Their request should be to the sabs posting the stuff, not the public for responding. Their request is unreasonable.

I have personally been invited, post ban, to hunt fox. I'd suggest anyone who is concerned about whether illegal hunting still exists goes out on midweek meets to satisfy themselves that the full requirements of the law are being met.

The sabbing problem for hunts laying decently strong trails, able to call their hounds off a fox scent, hunting entirely within both the letter and spirit of the law is a real problem. But until they can persuade all hunts to do the same, this problem will not end.

I agree with your second and third paras.

Not sure about your first, I read it that they would be perfectly happy to investigate in instances where the video footage was accurate, but that most of it is edited to inflame public opinion, which isn't really doing anyone any favours, whichever side of the fence one it.

What surprises me on a daily basis is that so many people still believe everything they see on Facebook!

 

[Tiddlypom]

There are at least three separate groups of antis currently operating in Cheshire - pretty much every meet is targeted by at least one of them. One of the groups call themselves sabs, and are sabs. Another says they are monitors, but they are sabs. The third group calls itself monitors, and are indeed monitors.

The two sab groups cause mayhem by interfering with the hounds by use of fake horn calls and gizmos. This also means that the hunt has a ready made excuse if a fox is killed as the hounds have been confused by the sabs. The sabs are playing up to the public but are a right bunch of amateurs. These are the groups that IMHO the police have the most doubts about.

The monitor group do not directly interfere with the day's sport, they merely record it all. I don't have a problem with this group - if the hunt stick to legal trail hunting, and don't, for instance, sneak in an opportunity to have a 'screamer' of a day chasing a live fox when they believe they are not being monitored, then all will be good.

 

[ycbm]

The sab problem in Cheshire will cease once Cheshire based hunts stop hunting fox. I live in Cheshire, and it is open knowledge in the hunting and drag community which hunts hunt fox and when.

Until the last hunt stops hunting fox, and the legal trail hunts lay trails strong enough to keep the hounds on them, all hunts in the area except the drag will still be sabbed

 

[Fred66]

Like honetpot, I rationalised my years of hunting because I believe that the countryside in general, and foxes in particular, were better managed in the days of legal hunting. I knew we were out to do a job, which was to catch the fox, but was always happy if we got a good run and ended up giving it best.

The day I was most uncomfortable was one where we ran the fox to ground. They dug it out, with hounds surrounding the hole, waiting for the fox to bolt. Out it shot, and scarpered, leaving the hounds looking rather silly. The younger members of the field may have cheered were very relieved, as we did not think that was sporting at all. I recall we got a bolloxing. An incident like this could easily have put a sensitive soul off - I wouldn't have been happy if it was routine, but it only happened once.

This is why the middle ground of licencing the hunts would have been a better option.

Using hounds to hunt foxes is the best method of natural selection in that it does tend to lead to healthy stronger foxes surviving and the sick and the ill being killed.

Shooting is nondiscriminatory and therefore healthy and sick are killed with equal abandon. Speaking to a friend the other week and she said the estate near her had shot over 80 foxes this winter so shooting is by no means a better option for the fox.

Also as someone else said sabs are going out deliberately breaking the law and use the excuse that they are doing so to try and prevent another one being broken. This is vigilantism and is not an acceptable excuse. They are free to monitor from public roads and byways, but aggressive and intimidatory behaviour is not acceptable especially when children are included within their target audience.

 

[ycbm]

Shooting is nondiscriminatory and therefore healthy and sick are killed with equal abandon. Speaking to a friend the other week and she said the estate near her had shot over 80 foxes this winter so shooting is by no means a better option for the fox.

Shooting, apart from lamping by yobs, is not indiscriminate. In this area, where there has never been any fox hunting, itkills the foxes which are taking livestock/birds and leaves the ones causing no problems alone.

Hunting, on the other hand, takes any fox that it can find, whether it is causing any issues or not.

If they have that many, then the estate near you would almost certainly be shooting as well as hunting foxes if hunting still existed on that estate.

I don't see that the number of foxes shot has any bearing on whether it is a better option for the fox to be shot or hunted.