No place for live-and-let-live in an intolerant world; will hunting survive?

[Fred66]

The sab problem in Cheshire will cease once Cheshire based hunts stop hunting fox. I live in Cheshire, and it is open knowledge in the hunting and drag community which hunts hunt fox and when.

Until the last hunt stops hunting fox, and the legal trail hunts lay trails strong enough to keep the hounds on them, all hunts in the area except the drag will still be sabbed

If you have evidence that they are hunting illegally then give it to the police. If not then what you are talking about is hearsay.

Sabs are vigilantes and have no place intimidating people by trespassing onto private land to disrupt a lawful pastime. Their actions frequently lead to the result that they purport to be trying to stop as they disrupt the hunt staff which leads to loss/reduced control of hounds which can lead to them following an unintended trail.

 

[ycbm]

Yup, it was hearsay, I heard it said. A personal invitation to hunt fox on a midweek day in Cheshire. A personal friend complaining about sabs in another county, who when I asked him why they were being sabbed, laughed and said 'because we hunt fox!'. The Police know about it, they just don't have the resources to do anything about it, because it's a difficult crime to prove.

 

[Bob notacob]

Shooting, apart from lamping by yobs, is not indiscriminate. In this area, where there has never been any fox hunting, itkills the foxes which are taking livestock/birds and leaves the ones causing no problems alone.

Hunting, on the other hand, takes any fox that it can find, whether it is causing any issues or not.

If they have that many, then the estate near you would almost certainly be shooting as well as hunting foxes if hunting still existed on that estate.

I don't see that the number of foxes shot has any bearing on whether it is a better option for the fox to be shot or hunted.

Sorry but this is not my experience. 9 out of 10 fit healthy foxes will evade a pack of hounds . I have however seen many foxes killed while in extremis from gunshot wounds. A quick death or gas gangrene. I know which I would choose.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry but this is not my experience. 9 out of 10 fit healthy foxes will evade a pack of hounds . I have however seen many foxes killed while in extremis from gunshot wounds. A quick death or gas gangrene. I know which I would choose.

What did you think 'any fox it can find', meant Bob? If they can't find it, they can't kill it.

I've lived in a shot, unhunted, area (by invitation and by very occasional rogue lampers) for nearly thirty years. I've never seen a fox, dead or alive, with gunshot wounds.

 

[9tails]

I find it ironic that the title is "No place for live-and-let-live in an intolerant world; will hunting survive?". Bearing in mind the OP doesn't much care for the legal trail and drag hunts, calling them “pale imitations”, I suspect that the live-and-let-live ideal wouldn’t be on the agenda for Mr Fox.

Real hunting was pretty much run off the road by Blair. Modern hunting, and drag-hunting, are merely pale imitations of the real thing.

 

[Bob notacob]

What did you think 'any fox it can find', meant Bob? If they can't find it, they can't kill it.

I've lived in a shot, unhunted, area (by invitation and by very occasional rogue lampers) for nearly thirty years. I've never seen a fox, dead or alive, with gunshot wounds.

Not only if they cant find it they cant kill it ,but even if they do find it ,if it is fit and healthy ,it will loose hounds in short order . Sadly I have seen numerous foxes with gunshot wounds run down by hounds. At least hounds kill or loose a fox ,they dont leave them wounded.

 

[paddi22]

I grew up hunting since i was a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a rabbit around a park, there would be uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!

 

[Mule]

I grew up hunting since i was a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a rabbit around a park, there would be uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!

Good point. I definitely think people who are ok with hunting are ok with it because it's normal to them.
I've only drag hunted so haven't given much thought to the ethics of fox hunting. I think, because to me fox hunting is an everyday activity it doesn't feel wrong like the example you gave of the kids and the rabbit. It's interesting how we perceive these things.

 

[meleeka]

I grew up hunting since i was a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a rabbit around a park, there would be uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!

This is a good point. Would people use the same arguments in this scanario such as “it’s a quick death” or “it’s ok because it only gets the ill or old ones”. Making anything run for it’s life isn’t ok with me and I think most people dislike stag hunting for this reason.

 

[ycbm]

I grew up hunting since i was a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a rabbit around a park, there would be uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!

Paddi22, I'm going to quote this post every time a defence of hunting comes up in future. I can't think why it never occurred to me. It absolutely encapsulates the whole argument.

 

[ycbm]

Not only if they cant find it they cant kill it ,but even if they do find it ,if it is fit and healthy ,it will loose hounds in short order . Sadly I have seen numerous foxes with gunshot wounds run down by hounds. At least hounds kill or loose a fox ,they dont leave them wounded.

For sure, Bob, a fox can always outrun a hound with legs twice the length it's got, and nobody digs them out and throws them to the pack if they succeed in evading the pack and go to ground.

Apologies for the sarcasm, but I live in country that has never been fox hunted in a National Park, surrounded by sheep farms and coverts, and it isn't riddled with gangrenous foxes. Farmers know who can shoot, and if they have a fox taking livestock, they call one of them. Same if we get too many deer. Hunters hunt all foxes, whether they are taking livestock or not.

And if a fox dies of gangrene, you are only comparing that with ONE incident of being hunted and killed by a pack of hounds. In reality, that fox might have been chased for its life many times before, and that has to be added into the equation of cruelty vs benefit.

And so must cubbing, which I described earlier in the thread. Which kills an entire pack of cubs each time it's carried out, (for several weeks before the start of the season) simply as a training exercise for young hounds. When I first described my experience of cubbing on this forum many years ago now, a man who is a bird shooter, farmer and strong supporter of hunting accused me of lying, he found it so impossible to believe.

If there would be uproar at Paddi22' s 'kids on a housing estate', imagine the outrage if cubbing was generally known about by the public!

 

[palo1]

I grew up hunting since i was a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a rabbit around a park, there would be
uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!

This is a very interesting perspective and a useful one too! However, it is not quite a comparable scenario to my mind: for one thing a rabbit is a very different animal to a fox, with different abilities and habits. I am not sure if you are referring to trail hunting (post ban) or pre-ban fox hunting but certainly fox hunting never involved, in my experience, the use of quad bikes to chase a fox!! Foxes were usually a considerable distance away from hounds which follow a scent (I dread to think of how staffies might hunt...!) and of course, fox hunting took place over very large areas of the countryside and not at all in an urban park where a rabbit or other animal would have incredibly limited chances. I have many, many times in the pre-ban past seen a fox completely calmly trotting well away from hounds which follow a scent on the ground. More often than not, healthy foxes are not killed by hounds, not least because they have a number of strategies for avoiding them. Foxes are predators, well equipped to evade other predators which would naturally hunt them (as they do in other countries). I can't quite accept ycbm's version of cubbing - which I witnessed many times when younger and was never, in my experience about wiping out whole litters of cubs but was far more about dispersing young foxes and about teaching young hounds to follow a scent. I have never met anyone else who believed that cubbing was about killing whole litters of fox cubs. I don't claim to be anything like an expert and for some years felt very ambivalent about fox-hunting and sought out information for both pro and anti arguments until the ban came in. Perhaps my part of the country is different to others but certainly this version of cubbing is not one I am familiar with.

It is quite perturbing to link the first scenario (of a gang of kids hunting a rabbit in a park with quads and staffies) with any kind of hunting: they seem like completely different things to me but I get the reference to packs of dogs & humans pursuing an animal I suppose.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I can't quite accept ycbm's version of cubbing - which I witnessed many times when younger and was never, in my experience about wiping out whole litters of cubs but was far more about dispersing young foxes and about teaching young hounds to follow a scent. I have never met anyone else who believed that cubbing was about killing whole litters of fox cubs.

I can confirm that ycbm's version of cubbing did used to happen, I have witnessed it several times when the hunt were around locally, mostly (but not always) pre ban. I did not go cubbing myself as a rider, maybe it was done differently in the West Country (where I used to hunt) to here.

The field surrounds a covert. Hounds are put in the covert. The field makes a lot of noise to deter the young foxes from escaping the covert, so the new young hounds get some nice easy kills to help them learn their job.

It is beyond me as to how preventing the young foxes from escaping from the covert assisted in their 'dispersal', as the 'official' version states was one of cubbings' main aims . Though I suppose that one or two braver ones may break out past the encircling field.

 

[ycbm]

YCBM's version of cubbing is the one she herself went on with the Berkeley Hunt. She was so disgusted by it, she never went again.

 

[palo1]

I didn't mean to suggest that you hadn't experienced what you say you have btw, but to say that I have never had that experience nor know anyone else that has. It is curious that experiences differ so much.

 

[Bob notacob]

I can confirm that ycbm's version of cubbing did used to happen, I have witnessed it several times when the hunt were around locally, mostly (but not always) pre ban. I did not go cubbing myself as a rider, maybe it was done differently in the West Country (where I used to hunt) to here.

The field surrounds a covert. Hounds are put in the covert. The field makes a lot of noise to deter the young foxes from escaping the covert, so the new young hounds get some nice easy kills to help them learn their job.

It is beyond me as to how preventing the young foxes from escaping from the covert assisted in their 'dispersal', as the 'official' version states was one of cubbings' main aims . Though I suppose that one or two braver ones may break out past the encircling field.

I am astounded that any hunt draws enough followers for cubbing ,to surround a cover . Even a very small cover of ,say 5 acres would take at least 60 riders at 10 metres apart . My experience has always been that the field may well line up along the side of a cover but other sides are left open.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Bnac, I'm only reporting on what I have seen locally. I don't know how common the practice was in other hunting countries. I did see it happen at least one further time in the early post ban days, but not recently.

The field didn't try to form an intact physical barrier, they spaced themselves out and made up for lack of numbers by making a lot of commotion. You get quite a good turnout for cubbing/Autumn hunting hereabouts, once the starts get a bit later in the morning later in the season .

 

[ycbm]

60 would have been a small meet for the Berkeley in the eighties. And very small for the Beaufort.

The cubs were contained by noise. Everyone talking loudly and banging their boots or their saddles with their whips. We were probably 10 metres apart from each other.

Why do fox cubs need man's 'help' in dispersing, Bob? They are territorial and largely solitary animals, not pack animals, it's natural to them to disperse when they are old enough.

 

[Bob notacob]

Why do fox cubs need man's 'help' in dispersing, Bob? They are territorial and largely solitary animals, not pack animals, it's natural to them to disperse when they are old enough.

I think you need to direct this question to whoever put that argument forward

 

[palo1]

I have always understood that fox cubs were dispersed so that they were less of a nuisance to local livestock: they will stay in an area where there is plenty of food or until they are driven out by other foxes - sometimes there is enough food or other mating partners that an area can become quite 'thick' with foxes, which is what we see in urban areas now. By dispersing them, this was less likely to happen and also, wittingly or unwittingly mimics the kind of predation that foxes evolved with. There are parallels in Yellowstone park - the moving on and disturbance of animals by top predators throughout the ecosystem is seen to be beneficial across the board. Healthy, strong foxes were good for fox-hunting and good for fox health generally so dispersal (rather than wholesale slaughter) may have been beneficial to everyone. I don't know what to say about the surrounding of a covert as I have never seen that nor hunted where that sort of number of a field was evident. In other areas it does work differently: in hill country for example where there simply aren't those sorts of coverts: foxes are in gorse/bracken/hedges. In other sorts of country too I understand that parts of a covert may have been 'lined out' but in order to prevent foxes from heading in a particular direction: sometimes because that direction wasn't to be hunted and sometimes to encourage young foxes to head out into open country where they could, indeed be hunted and tested. A fox with experience of being hunted was considered 'better' and was more evidently stronger, fitter and 'better' stock for the local fox population. I can't see what slaughtering a whole litter of cubs would achieve in old fashioned hunting terms but clearly this is something that others have seen/got more knowledge of. I have seen the kind of thing ycbm refers to in films but always assumed that this was an inaccurate sensationalisation of one element of a hunting day.