No winter turnout??

[tabithakat64]

I would never chose a yard with no winter turnout.

The yard my two semi-retired equines are at has the option of over night or day time turnout year round, the fields never have more than a couple of inches of mud in the gateway and the fields always recover well from being used year round. This situation is ideal for me

I keep my other horse at a friends yard, we all moved there last August. Unfortunately we must have the worst fields in the area, they are in a valley or on a hillside and heavy clay. Last winter they became very waterlogged and muddy however we still managed to turnout out daily or nightly in two 'trash' paddocks or the school. The paddocks have recovered to some extent with careful management.

This is not ideal as I would like him to have more turnout (he was turned out for 6 hours a day from December to March) but my horse had behavioural issues when I first had him and would have ended up hurting people had he been on a normal DIY yard.

If turnout had to be further limited to a couple of hours a day I would certainly move him as this would not be acceptable IMO.

 

[aimsymc]

I personaly dont have a prob with no winter turnout on grass. The yard im at just now has winter turnout unless hideous weather. But i was also on a yard with turnout on a sand suface for an hour a day, horses were absolutely fine and onky ones with a problem were the ones who fed buckets of feed and didnt ride enough! Imo thats bad management!

 

[millitiger]

This is what I don't understand. The point is I DO have winter turnout. In fact last year we were the only yard in the area that turned out every single day during the really bad weather. My farrier told me. The reason being the all weather turnout is only yards from the stables and the walk way is therefore easy to keep gritted and clear of snow and ice. The yards keeping their horses in were those boasting all year turnout but the weather beat them because it was too dangerous to lead the horses to the fields. Ours on the other hand were out for at least four hours every day. They have ad lib quality haylage during that time and can hoon about on a safe all weather surface. Why would anyone want them to go out in the fields when it is frozen solid and dangerous?

How big is your all weather turnout and can you have horses together/either side?

We have field turnout all through winter and not once had an issue getting the horses out to the fields through all of the snow and ice.

I like my horses to go out on all ground and in all weather- I think it is better for them to learn where their feet and legs are and to adapt accordingly.

Maybe mine are different as they have gone out every day since foals on clay soil and they have been expected to get on with it so they seem very sure footed.

There was nothing nicer than watching my 2 racing each other last winter on 2ft of snow and having a great time galloping and making huge snow angels

I understand there is an element of risk but there is risk with most things involved with horses and if I worried about everything, they would never leave their stables.

 

[AmyMay]

There was nothing nicer than watching my 2 racing each other last winter on 2ft of snow and having a great time galloping and making huge snow angels

Just a beautiful sight, I agree.

 

[jsr]

I wouldn't put my horse somewhere he couldn't get unrestricted turnout. He's out most of the time, just comes in for munch. The grazing is appauling at my yard but it's a biggish field with a nice mix of horses and while I do spend alot of money feeding him to keep his weight at least I know he's having plenty of fresh air, got good companions and space to have a play in. Winter the field fairs very well, the gateways are obviously muddy but being sandy raised fields the majority of the acres are not muddy and clear. Can't imagine him if he was stuck inside days on end, I'd be very miserable and he certainly would be too.

 

[JFTDWS]

I wouldn't stable somewhere without turnout in winter. I would find an alternative, whatever the cost. There is always a choice, if you think otherwise, you're just not prepared to see the choice (because it would mean driving / public transport x hours a day / sleep deprivation / changing lifestyle / sacrificing facilities e.g. school / seeking out a field rent from a farmer etc).

I may be the only person in Britain praying for another winter like last. Colder the better. The more snow, the better. If the ground freezes, there's no mud and mine will be out 24/7. I will stable as much as I have to, to prevent my grazing being totally trashed. But at most that will be stabling overnight.

Mine are more than happy to be in, I've had to stable for various reasons in the past. They're well mannered, they adapt, they remain handlable and rideable. But they're also happy to be out. It's not a management problem, it's a management choice - I think it is important for them to be out, so they will be.

IME the more turnout they get, the quieter they are in the field - stabling horses for long periods then chucking them out onto mud / snow / rutted ground is asking for trouble and injuries as they let off steam. Mine are calm in the field because they don't have any steam to let off Freak accidents can always happen. Alas that is the nature of life. I won't stable mine for months on end for that fear. They could equally encouter a freak accident in the stable anyway.

If you're managing an arthritic, provided it can be kept warm in the field, the steady movement is generally better for the joints than long periods standing still in a stable. Furthermore, if you look at some of the research regarding ulcers and starvation periods, lengthy stabling itself appears to be associated with the development of ulcers (compared to field kept horses) suggesting there are a variety of tangible health benefits to turnout.

 

[CHH]

I have found this post fascinating with regards to the number and content of the replies.

It seems to me that those who are in the situation of not having winter turnout are being defensive or justifying their reason for being there. Which is understandable, forums allow all opinions and cirumstances.

Others who turn out all year are expressing that this is the more 'natural' approach to the nomadic behaviour of the horse, thus allowing the horse to express being a horse.

I have imported my own horses from warm climates that never have experienced the cold as we have here, and they have lived in at night, out at day fine. Some over the age of 13years who had no turnout over there either. With correct management they all enjoy the freedom.

They adapt, as an animal the horse IS very adaptable. Initially they do stand at the gate clueless, but over time they simply revert to grazing and the occasional 'prance about' to let any potential mate know they are there (the stallions).

Daily turnout, in my experience, I think is crucial for such an animal, allow the to forage, graze, mooch do 'horse things' - things I do not believe they can exhibite in the stable - hence vices, ulcers and other negative things.

The fact they are adaptable has led to the working life and also the stable life. The stable is not for the benefit of the horse, but originally the human.
Sames goes for stainless steel bits.

If yards can't manage their land, or don't have enough, to offer what should be basic needs of the animal then they shouldn't operate.

As another poster said - maintaining the land does come at a price, machinery, labour - experience/knowledge etc...

If a yard feels this cost can not be returned in time through livery fees, then is this really a viable yard? If liveries can not afford correct facilties (I'm not talking fancy indoor arenas but grazing) for their horse (including the travel costs etc...) then should they own the horse in the first place?

I'm sorry if that sounds awful, but I sold my own horse at the early stages of my career because of those reasons. A short term loss and years later I was in a much better position to provide for not only one horse but many, at home.

I believe there are now laws surrounding the size of hutch you can keep a rabbit type pet in - so how long before this attention is turned to the horse?

1 hour in 24 hours in an arena I guess is better than nothing, but far from ideal - but if there are 10 horses on such a yard and everyone works - how is this honestly being done?

I have seen and been on livery yards where everyone is there between 5-8pm at night, how could each horse have time?

For those who are doing this - how do you have time for family?
I would not put my horse before my kids to be stuck in such a system, it can't be a fun enjoyable hobby during winter.

I hope everyone gets through winter OK, both two and four legged.

 

[quirky]

If liveries can not afford correct facilties (I'm not talking fancy indoor arenas but grazing) for their horse (including the travel costs etc...) then should they own the horse in the first place?

Eh ?

You cannot be serious !

I think the WHW would be completely over run with horses if they used your criteria of horse management.

 

[Wagtail]

How big is your all weather turnout and can you have horses together/either side?

It's 40m x 30m so just a bit larger than a normal menage. The horses go out in groups of four in two shifts. It is picked out several times a day and haylage nets tied around the edge.

I vowed never to turn out again in either mud or in snow or ice after my horse of a lifetime did her shoulder and I had to retire her. I had grown complacent after nearly five years with no turnout accidents. To me, it's just not worth it, though I understand others' views when they have been lucky enough to remain accident free for years.

I also really do feel that horses that have to go out in trashed winter paddocks are miserable. It is better than no turnout at all but I truly believe my horses are happier in the all weather during the winter. My liveries love it too as there is no mud to wash off.

If I was ever to move, my first priority (before a menage) would be an all weather turn out. I see it as essential now, unless I was lucky enough to live somewhere with lovely sandy soil that didn't get slippery or muddy in the wet.

 

[JFTDWS]

I think the WHW would be completely over run with horses if they used your criteria of horse management.

Or, over time, there would simply be fewer horses bred and produced for sale to meet the reduced demand...

 

[Montys_Mum]

I really wouldnt consider a yard that didnt have all year turnout. The fields at our yard arent particularly great but its a very big yard with alot of ponies, but our field only has 3 horses and 2 foalies and the field is never rested with them out 24/7 in summer and in at night in the winter. We section quarters off to let the grass grow and sometimes hay them too. I think for the what a horse does he deserves to go out and have 'his time' to eat and play. My horse is a wimp but he still will go out in the snow and love it (even though he nicely rugged up ) i think its just more natural for them to have time to chill.

 

[CHH]

Eh ?

You cannot be serious !

I think the WHW would be completely over run with horses if they used your criteria of horse management.

My criteria for horse management...That being the animal has access to grazing/time out of a stable each day?

How is that not being serious?


I also think the all weather is a great idea mentioned above especially if land is known to be boggy or very hilly. I would revert to an arena system in such situations, especially when there is 3ft of snow to get through.

 

[quirky]

Or, over time, there would simply be fewer horses bred and produced for sale to meet the reduced demand...

Which will help but it won't change clay soil to loam and neither will it prevent the torrential rain that lashes the part of the country I live in frequently.

To say people shouldn't own horses because they don't have winter turnout is extreme and offensive. Some people need to look further than the end of their noses to see how the rest of the country is.

I have lived down south and north. Both demanded different regimes for the horses and they adapt. I know where I'd rather live .

 

[quirky]

My criteria for horse management...That being the animal has access to grazing/time out of a stable each day?

How is that not being serious?

I read your original post as having grazing time, not alternative turnout.

I still think saying people shouldn't have horses that can't get out extreme but I do agree that a horse needs chill time either on grass or paddock.

 

[CHH]

Which will help but it won't change clay soil to loam and neither will it prevent the torrential rain that lashes the part of the country I live in frequently.

To say people shouldn't own horses because they don't have winter turnout is extreme and offensive. Some people need to look further than the end of their noses to see how the rest of the country is.

I have lived down south and north. Both demanded different regimes for the horses and they adapt. I know where I'd rather live .

You are being defensive - and so I assume you have your horse in such a system.

I too have lived in many locations and other countries also, I see way beyond my own nose and that of my horses thanks.

Why is it extreme or offensive for someone to have this opinion?

 

[JFTDWS]

Which will help but it won't change clay soil to loam and neither will it prevent the torrential rain that lashes the part of the country I live in frequently.

I've kept horses down here on clay for over a decade, always with winter turnout. Also lived for many years on the west coast of Scotland, where rain and mud are also very much at home - despite this the RSs I went to when I lived there all had winter turnout. With the right stocking density and land management, it is possible to have all year turnout anywhere. Especially if you're willing to invest in alternative surfaces. So to my mind, where you live isn't really relevant...

 

[AmyMay]

I vowed never to turn out again in either mud or in snow or ice after my horse of a lifetime did her shoulder and I had to retire her.

I think that's a huge over-reaction. My friend's horse of a lifetime was out on beautiful summer pasture, and broke her leg cantering across the field. Does that mean she should never turn out again on even the best land? No of course not.

I also really do feel that horses that have to go out in trashed winter paddocks are miserable.

That's a huge generalisation, and certainly not my experience (mostly)

 

[quirky]

Why is it extreme or offensive for someone to have this opinion?

I find it offensive that some random should like to dictate how our horses are kept and because they aren't kept the way you decide, then they should be sold.

I am not about to justify my horses routine to you or anybody. She gets sufficient turnout all year, be it on grass or a surface. She has no health or psychological issues and is a dream to ride all year round.

That says to me she is a happy horse who is well cared for .

 

[Wagtail]

Safety issues aside, whilst I think we can all agree that the ideal horse environment would be lots of acres per horse, good ground with land that does not poach, and the choice to leave the horse out 24/7 with shelter, this is not practical for most people who do not own their own land (and have the money to buy and maintain it). Most people keep their horses at livery and it is just not financially viable for a yard to run as a business if it is to have enough land to provide 24/7 grazing for all horses throughout the whole year. They would need around 3 acres per horse. This is fine in areas where property prices are lower and land is cheap, but in areas near London, and other large cities, as well of a lot of the south, it is just not feasible. Liveries would have to charge around 3 times as much to provide this type of facility. Some may argue that this is what they should be made to do, but I think if they are made to provide all year round grazing for every livery, then most horse owners would be priced out of owning horses and horse prices would plummet resulting in mass destruction of animals.

However, if it is just TURNOUT people are demanding, then livery yards would need to invest in the building of all weather turnouts which again, for some, would not be financially feasible.

 

[Ranyhyn]

My criteria for horse management...That being the animal has access to grazing/time out of a stable each day?

how much turnout time do we have to adhere to to be able to keep our horses please?

 

[Bertolie]

I'm lucky as I can have as much winter turnout as I choose. I am on a DIY yard and we each have our own paddocks. What we choose to do with our paddocks is up to us. The liveries at my yard that are furthest from the stables also get a small 'lazy' paddock that they can turn out in for a few hours each day.

As my daughter also has her horse at the same yard we have two individual paddocks that we rotate. Both horses are kept together all the time. The one nearest the stables will be used over the winter allowing the other paddock time to rest. Once we are into spring the horses will be turned out in the second paddock to allow the winter one to be rested and then rolled ready for summer.

Obviously if the weather is really bad then we have the option of bringing them in but they were only in for a handful of nights and a couple of days last winter.

 

[Wagtail]

I think that's a huge over-reaction. My friend's horse of a lifetime was out on beautiful summer pasture, and broke her leg cantering across the field. Does that mean she should never turn out again on even the best land? No of course not.

Not an over reaction when my sister lost her horse when he suffered a compound fracture of the hind cannon through slipping in a muddy field, and 5 years earlier I lost a gelding due to a hock fracture due to deep mud, and my friend lost her youngster, again, due to mud. After the first accidents I did not turn out in the field in poor conditions for several years until I was persuaded to by a livery and then this happened to my mare. I was devastated. I won't risk it again.

Of course, horses damage themselves in all kinds of conditions, but there are far mor accidents in winter paddocks IME than on good summer ground. I am not saying people are wrong to turnout in winter, just that I choose not to do it because of a few nasty experiences.

 

[Mithras]

Not an over reaction when my sister lost her horse when he suffered a compound fracture of the hind cannon through slipping in a muddy field, and 5 years earlier I lost a gelding due to a hock fracture due to deep mud, and my friend lost her youngster, again, due to mud. After the first accidents I did not turn out in the field in poor conditions for several years until I was persuaded to by a livery and then this happened to my mare. I was devastated. I won't risk it again..

But is this not more likely to happen to horses who don't get enough turnout and therefore race around on poor ground conditions? Or do I always just have the sort of horses which are quite active to ride but barely go out of a walk when turned out?

I was on full livery and can't find a yard to do winter turnout so I'll be going DIY this winter to ensure it. It just doesn't work for my horse. He went slightly crazy last winter, very spooky, wouldn't jump (is a competition horse) and I had several nasty falls. I don't think it does his joints and flexibility much good either. With turnout, he is sane, calm and wins a lot! I tried to ride him as much as I could, and spend as much time with him as I could, which kind of defeated the time saving notion of full livery.

I absolutely hated going up to the yard and asking if my horse had been out yet, and asking them if they could make sure he would, riding a too fresh horse which felt like sitting on an unexploded bomb, and knowing it would be the same next day - I was told there would be turnout, which turned out to mean 20 minutes a couple of times a week, if it was sunny and if they remembered.

tbh if full livery can only provide 24/7 in a box, I'd be as well building a box in my garden and keeping him in that, and exercising him in the field next door!

 

[GingerCat]

It's quite obvious that the people who are stating that they wouldn't consider yards that can't offer all year round grass turnout are the ones who are able to find such yards. I don't believe that the majority of these people would have the same views if they didn't have access to such yards, No matter what they claim.

To the person who sent there horse away to retirement livery for all year round 24/7 turnout..shame on you! Most of these places claim to be retirement heaven but I've seen first hand that they are no such thing. Hundreds of horses just turned out and left to their own devices. There is no way that all the horses can be properly checked over twice a day.
I'd have my old boy PTS before I abandoned him to strangers

 

[cbmcts]

It's quite obvious that the people who are stating that they wouldn't consider yards that can't offer all year round grass turnout are the ones who are able to find such yards. I don't believe that the majority of these people would have the same views if they didn't have access to such yards, No matter what they claim.

To the person who sent there horse away to retirement livery for all year round 24/7 turnout..shame on you! Most of these places claim to be retirement heaven but I've seen first hand that they are no such thing. Hundreds of horses just turned out and left to their own devices. There is no way that all the horses can be properly checked over twice a day.
I'd have my old boy PTS before I abandoned him to strangers

GingerCat, your double standards astound me (I don't know why! I've been on HHO long enough) - you complain bitterly that people disagree with your methods of horse husbandry and you cry shame on me! Logic doesn't seem to be your strong point. You say that you cannot find winter turnout because of the lack or unsuitability of land available in your area but you know of retirement liveries (you imply more than one?) that has enough land to turnout "hundreds" of horses. That suggests that land isn't at such a premium after all...

Not that it need anger or concern you but my horses are not part of a herd of hundreds, more like 15 - 20 depending on the time of year.They are checked twice daily, have their feet trimmed and are wormed on a very regular schedule. A RL that regularly has ex racers (among others) living until their late 20s/early 30s does not shout neglect to me. I think there are many horses on livery yards/private plots that are less well cared for? (Not that I was rude about them)I also do see my horses very regularly (after all, I've nothing to ride for the first time in 35 years - so my weekends are very free ) and I do a 200 mile round trip to do so.

Do you also disagree with full livery as a matter of interest?

 

[Hovis_and_SidsMum]

to retirement livery for all year round 24/7 turnout..shame on you! Most of these places claim to be retirement heaven but I've seen first hand that they are no such thing. Hundreds of horses just turned out and left to their own devices. There is no way that all the horses can be properly checked over twice a day.
I'd have my old boy PTS before I abandoned him to strangers

Ouch!
Thats a bit harsh! You don't know the circumstances, you don't know if it was "strangers", maybe the poster visits frequently etc? I also doubt you have seen every retirement livery in the country!

As for the turn out question - mine is simple. Hovis would not go somewhere where I couldn't turn him out when it is my choice to do so. A few days last winter i kept him in due to the conditions or put him out for only a few hours. The year before at another yard we were forced to keep them in for nearly 3 weeks due to the weather with no riding and he was a pain in the bum. Moreover he was an idiot when i did turn him out - thus risking more injury than when he was quietly mooching in the snow this last year.

 

[Flame_]

I would be happy with Wagtail's arrangement in particularly bad weather.

 

[Flame_]

I've also been thinking about what somebody said ages ago about horses only going nuts when shut in because they are getting too much of the wrong food... Wrong! Many horses perform with plenty of energy all summer generated by nothing but hay and grass. This is because forage does provide many horses in low to medium work with all the fuel they need to operate. Hence when you stop them from operating in winter, where is all that energy going to go? Upwards, that's where, and horses eat plenty of hay when they're shut in doing nothing or they're even more miserable.

 

[SecretSquirrell379]

I havn't read all of the posts, got a bit bamboozled after the 1st page!!

I am at a great yard that does have all year turn out, the fields are rotated and as long as the liveries are sensible they do stand the test of winter. There are just a handful of days that they are not allowed out and this is normally due to snow/flooding.

However, my horse does not go out very often over winter and that is my choice. She HATES it out in the rain/wind/snow, she will tear round and around and around, screaming her head off, skidding to halts, rearing, bucking, broncing. And she will keep doing this until someone brings her in, hours if necessary. The second you clip the lead rope on she takes a big breath and relaxes. She hides in the back of the stable if you put her head collar on if its raining, even in the summer!! The downside to this is I ride her every single day, rain/snow/gales, she gets ridden. For at least an hour.

I don't want my girl to break a leg or do herself a major injury tearing around like a nana, she is VERY happy in her stable, in her jim jams with a big fat haynet. She looks out straight over the yard, can see other horses and everyone too'ing and fro'ing.

She is perfectly healthy, 20 years old, and would give any 7 year old a run for its money!!!

 

[jellycat]

I was misled earlier in the year when I moved yards. I was told there was turnout available but it turned out that their idea of turnout was a tiny sand paddock. My horse was there for around 5 weeks whilst I looked for somewhere else. By the time we moved she had gone insane! It took us over an hour to load her, where just 6 weeks before it took 10mins. She was rearing and managed to escape and ran loose around the yard. It was HORRENDOUS! She was so very unhappy but within a week at our new place she was back to her old self again. So, my opinion is that no winter turnout is a no no.

As an aside, there are yards round my way which only offer limited or no turnout in summer. It's horrific and totally unnatural for horses. They need the nutrients from the grass and the exercise. Not only that but socialisation is vital for me. How can herd bound animals be expected to spend their lives isolated and in a box?