No, you do not 'love' your horse if...

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MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
There are a great deal more terrible things that can happen to a horse that can no longer do its job, than being PTS. The saddest adverts that one sees are horses advertised in H&H and FB, and elsewhere, where horses/ponies have obviously done a job well but can no longer do it so effectively - they are then advertised as "companions" or "can do light work" - and everyone knows that these unfortunate animals will end up shunted from pillar to post, to seedy dealers, to market, and then the meat man. Far kinder to make a decision to PTS rather than do this to a horse surely?
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Totally agree with this.
 
Actually I think most people are misunderstanding what Wagtail meant. It is a bloody stupid post, only placed to stir up trouble, as I suspect she may have known, but she does have a point. Love is keeping your horse alive if it is happy and healthy, not shooting it to suit yourself. That is all she said. So, a back handed compliment to you Wagtail.

On the other hand, someone said earlier about your mare that you loved so much you kept her alive as long as possible, which you freely admit because you loved her so much, even though she couldn't basically eat anything and couldn't walk without pain. This is not meant to be upsetting but it is the other side of the 'love' coin.

Most of us do our best with what rescources and knowledge we have and make the decsion we deem to be best in everyones interests as and when such a decision needs to be made.
 
Clodagh said:
Actually I think most people are misunderstanding what Wagtail meant. It is a bloody stupid post, only placed to stir up trouble, as I suspect she may have known, but she does have a point. Love is keeping your horse alive if it is happy and healthy, not shooting it to suit yourself. That is all she said. So, a back handed compliment to you Wagtail.

On the other hand, someone said earlier about your mare that you loved so much you kept her alive as long as possible, which you freely admit because you loved her so much, even though she couldn't basically eat anything and couldn't walk without pain. This is not meant to be upsetting but it is the other side of the 'love' coin.

Most of us do our best with what rescources and knowledge we have and make the decsion we deem to be best in everyones interests as and when such a decision needs to be made.
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I don't really want to get into a discussion about my mare, but as you are being so polite will give you the courtesy of an answer. I can hand on heart say that I put my mare to sleep at exactly the right time. She was such a happy little mare who enjoyed life right up until the end. I had finally relented and put her in heart bar shoes and she was finally sound and happy in the field. So happy and back to her old self that she tore a tendon in her shoulder chasing a youngster round the field. It was her original career ending injury that she had done a couple of years prior to the cushings and laminitis problems and it was exactly then when I made the decision to put her to sleep because after finally getting her field sound I was not going to confine her for months in a stable. It broke my heart but I did it for her. Regarding her laminitis, she was never confined to a stable for longer than a week as I have a sand turnout where she went when she was at her worst. She had constant access to forage and never stood so much as an hour without something to munch. She was the happiest horse I have ever come across, even during her laminitis episodes. Her laminitis was mild with absolutely no rotation and she was never more than a 1/2 tenths lame during her flare-ups.

So I think I got it exactly right with her and have no regrets other than I wish that I still had her in my life. I miss her every day. I know I did right by her 100% which is not something I can say about two of my dogs that I know I left too long in retrospect. One was due to my husband refusing to PTS whilst she was still eating (and he regrets that now) and the other was due to vets persuading us to keep going with chemo. Never again.

But what this has to do with this thread, I have no idea, so that is the end of my discussion about it.
 
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Wagtail said:
Then there are the usual haters who just see any of my threads and jump in purposely misinterpreting what I have said and deflecting the thread, and making personal insults. I stopped engaging with you individually a long time ago. You know who you are. Contrary to what you say, you sit and wait for these threads (God knows where you find the time). You love my threads, so get over yourselves.
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Don't flatter yourself sweetie........ having been labelled once, and only once - by posting a different opinion to yours on one of 'your' threads, i usually stay well clear.

Wagtail, my offer still stands - come and visit some FATE training or go on visits (if allowed), you might possibly then have a different perception.
 
Interesting thread.

I have an older horse who is no longer capable of doing what he has done. We don't have the facilities to retire him to a field but he is still capable of giving someone else pleasure with some hacking/low level schooling. If I found a suitable person, I would loan him to them, on the basis that his life would still have some purpose. If I don't find a suitable person, I will pts, on the basis that his quality of life would not be sufficient to continue. I am thinking of his best options - I don't want him to dwindle away, lobbed out in some muddy field - and by considering pts, I think I show more care/love/whatever you call it, for him.
 
Sorry but I think that anyone presuming to know what emotion someone else is experiencing when they make a decision to put any animal to sleep is treading a very thin line. While I don't understand why OP started the thread, I will add my 2p.
I had my horse if a lifetime PTS a couple of years ago and can safely say that I grieved for him like I would a family member. He could no longer 'do his job', Wagtail. And that was the reason I had him PTS. Not so that I could buy another one - I still don't own another horse - but because, with his other health conditions, every alternative we considered for him resulted in the same problems (in his case, intolerance to sugar in the grass and laminitis). While he was 'doing his job' he was on limited but regular turnout to manage his metabolic condition, with loads of work to keep his mind happy.
I was offered free grazing livery for life by his old owner but we both agreed that the grazing was far too lush for him to cope with and confining him to either a grazing muzzle or starvation paddock for the next 10 years just so we didn't have to make a difficult decision was no way to thank him for his service.
I love him with that aching love that finds its way into every nerve fibre and not a day goes by that I don't think of him. It was precisely BECAUSE I love him so much that I had him put to sleep. The day I lost him changed me as a person. I don't know if I am alone in that but I see myself as pre- and post- that awful, awful day.
Wagtail I read your OP and felt ill. All those emotions came flooding back. Sometimes your posts are really thoughtful and intelligent, but please tread carefully in areas like this. They may just be words on a screen but their impact on thinking, feeling, grieving people is real.
I would hate to think that someone might be influenced to act in a way contrary to an animal's best interests because of an unfounded fear of being judged.
 
Flicker said:
Sorry but I think that anyone presuming to know what emotion someone else is experiencing when they make a decision to put any animal to sleep is treading a very thin line. While I don't understand why OP started the thread, I will add my 2p.
I had my horse if a lifetime PTS a couple of years ago and can safely say that I grieved for him like I would a family member. He could no longer 'do his job', Wagtail. And that was the reason I had him PTS. Not so that I could buy another one - I still don't own another horse - but because, with his other health conditions, every alternative we considered for him resulted in the same problems (in his case, intolerance to sugar in the grass and laminitis). While he was 'doing his job' he was on limited but regular turnout to manage his metabolic condition, with loads of work to keep his mind happy.
I was offered free grazing livery for life by his old owner but we both agreed that the grazing was far too lush for him to cope with and confining him to either a grazing muzzle or starvation paddock for the next 10 years just so we didn't have to make a difficult decision was no way to thank him for his service.
I love him with that aching love that finds its way into every nerve fibre and not a day goes by that I don't think of him. It was precisely BECAUSE I love him so much that I had him put to sleep. The day I lost him changed me as a person. I don't know if I am alone in that but I see myself as pre- and post- that awful, awful day.
Wagtail I read your OP and felt ill. All those emotions came flooding back. Sometimes your posts are really thoughtful and intelligent, but please tread carefully in areas like this. They may just be words on a screen but their impact on thinking, feeling, grieving people is real.
I would hate to think that someone might be influenced to act in a way contrary to an animal's best interests because of an unfounded fear of being judged.
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I am really genuinely sorry that my post made you feel this way. But you made a decision that you felt was best for him. You did not just have him put to sleep because he couldn't do his job. If you thought he'd be happy retired, you would have retired him. So I don't understand why you would think my post was aimed at people like yourself. Maybe I worded it badly?

Just as an aside, why do people think retirement has to be dumping a horse in a muddy field? I have retired three horses over the years, and none of them have been dumped in a field. They have kept the same routine as the others on the yard. Some horses are happy just out in the field, others like to follow their old routine minus the riding.
 
Wagtail are you just trying to troll and wind people up? Your posts are coming across as fake and backtracking. You would be best just to leave it and chalk this up to a bad decision rather than try to wriggle out of the bind you have put yourself in.
 
touchstone said:
I live near someone who takes great pride in letting everyone know how much they love their horse, unfortunately this has turned into anthropomorphism and the owners are completely unaware of the horses preferences. It has to stand while grown adults hug it's neck and kiss it's nose while it is obviously irritated by the whole thing. It is stabled at the slightest drop of rain which it hates and box walks. It is taken for long outings and galloped when totally unfit because it enjoys it. I'm pretty sure that it will have to continue into old age even if it has a myriad of ailments as they love it so much.
What they are confusing is love with selfishness and self gratification, because they've fussed incessantly over the horse they feel good about themselves, the horse couldn't give two hoots and would probably prefer to be given some peace, so II do think that sometimes distancing ourselves from the emotional side and really looking at what is best for them is a totally different kettle of fish to what some would describe as love.
Care and compassion have to be priority as others have said. Somebody who humanely ends a horses life shouldn't be judged, there are fates far worse and only the owner is in a position to decide if the choice is right without us saying they don't love their horse.
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Flicker said:
Sorry but I think that anyone presuming to know what emotion someone else is experiencing when they make a decision to put any animal to sleep is treading a very thin line. While I don't understand why OP started the thread, I will add my 2p.
I had my horse if a lifetime PTS a couple of years ago and can safely say that I grieved for him like I would a family member. He could no longer 'do his job', Wagtail. And that was the reason I had him PTS. Not so that I could buy another one - I still don't own another horse - but because, with his other health conditions, every alternative we considered for him resulted in the same problems (in his case, intolerance to sugar in the grass and laminitis). While he was 'doing his job' he was on limited but regular turnout to manage his metabolic condition, with loads of work to keep his mind happy.
I was offered free grazing livery for life by his old owner but we both agreed that the grazing was far too lush for him to cope with and confining him to either a grazing muzzle or starvation paddock for the next 10 years just so we didn't have to make a difficult decision was no way to thank him for his service.
I love him with that aching love that finds its way into every nerve fibre and not a day goes by that I don't think of him. It was precisely BECAUSE I love him so much that I had him put to sleep. The day I lost him changed me as a person. I don't know if I am alone in that but I see myself as pre- and post- that awful, awful day.
Wagtail I read your OP and felt ill. All those emotions came flooding back. Sometimes your posts are really thoughtful and intelligent, but please tread carefully in areas like this. They may just be words on a screen but their impact on thinking, feeling, grieving people is real.
I would hate to think that someone might be influenced to act in a way contrary to an animal's best interests because of an unfounded fear of being judged.
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You aren't alone flicker, and have echoed my situation and sentiments exactly. The riding aspect didn't bother me one bit, but watching her lead an increasingly restricted life was unfair on her.
 
Interesting thread, sorry if someone has said the same thing, but I feel like the question that first comes to mind to me is; “If a horse can no longer do its job, WHY can it no longer do its job or any job for that matter?” Is it in pain? Struggling to move properly? Can’t keep weight on? If I cannot comfortably retire my horse to a light hack/in hand shows/ride & lead and then to a companion/play pony for some little girl who maybe cannot afford her own to brush and fuss and learn with, then why am I keeping them hanging on to life? If a horse is happy and healthy and can, within reason, provide some sort of purpose then I would not even consider pts. A horse that’s struggling in its old age (or heading that way) lingering around bored and unhappy I would not let drag on no matter how truly I loved them.
 
Wagtail said:
I am really genuinely sorry that my post made you feel this way. But you made a decision that you felt was best for him. You did not just have him put to sleep because he couldn't do his job. If you thought he'd be happy retired, you would have retired him. So I don't understand why you would think my post was aimed at people like yourself. Maybe I worded it badly?
Just as an aside, why do people think retirement has to be dumping a horse in a muddy field? I have retired three horses over the years, and none of them have been dumped in a field. They have kept the same routine as the others on the yard. Some horses are happy just out in the field, others like to follow their old routine minus the riding.
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How did you expect it to make people feel it's a bit late to be sorry .
You could have headed your thread anyway you liked but you chose that dogmatic title .
So of course it make flicker feel ill as it did me battling as I am ATM with a horse that's cost 8k since April and I can't sleep for worrying about him and trying to decide what to do next .I can't leave the house to go shopping because I keep getting called back as he has an unerring ability to start a bout as soon as I am gone .
But hey I am sure pronouncing from on high made you feel great .
 
Wagtail said:
I am surprised, if I am 'preaching to the choir' why so many people are objecting to this thread. It is not aimed at people who have to make that call and the horse is in pain, or they cannot afford to keep the horse in retirement, or the horse just would not settle in retirement (though these are rare horses). It is aimed at people who view their horses as riding machines who will shoot it when it is no longer of use even though they can afford to keep it when it is able to carry them AND in the same breath say they love the horse. They don't; they love RIDING the horse.
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ester said:
But the 'being able to afford' bit is the complication is it not?
Because for most, the not being able to afford means choosing to spend your money on something else? Because your priorities and family commitments might have changed over the years. You might be up for living on beans on toast but your husband and kids might be less keen.
As I said it is all so subjective and very judgemental and presumptive on people's feelings.
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do you not agree that not being able to afford it is subjective?
Is your comment only aimed at people who immediately buy a replacement?
Is there an approved grieving period for if you do find yourself in a financial position to acquire a replacement?
 
Wagtail said:
I am really genuinely sorry that my post made you feel this way. But you made a decision that you felt was best for him. You did not just have him put to sleep because he couldn't do his job. If you thought he'd be happy retired, you would have retired him. So I don't understand why you would think my post was aimed at people like yourself. Maybe I worded it badly?

Just as an aside, why do people think retirement has to be dumping a horse in a muddy field? I have retired three horses over the years, and none of them have been dumped in a field. They have kept the same routine as the others on the yard. Some horses are happy just out in the field, others like to follow their old routine minus the riding.
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We have horses on our livery yard who are on the 'same routine minus the riding'. I'm not sure I'd have chosen it for my own horse. The yard is lovely and the staff very caring but it is set up to be a yard for horses in work. If the fields flood, for example, and everything stays in there are fab indoor facilities and a horse walker - no good for a horse with SI injuries as mine had. So he would have to stay in and maybe get walked in hand. Good luck with that with a spirited 16.3 ISH! Just one example of how it wouldn't work in my situation - believe me, I considered every option!!

I'm just trying to illustrate that, by making sweeping statements, you risk forgetting that everyone's situation is unique to them. Every decision based on a specific set of circumstances that lead you down a certain path and arrive at a unique outcome.

You seem really caring and a wonderful owner. Recognising the shades of grey in life, though, is a strength not a weakness. I hope I've chucked a couple in the mix for you :)

I'm glad I came across your thread, and I thank those who have responded in support of me, because it confirms that I did the right thing. Goldenstar, I'm thinking of you and I hope that you can find a way through this horrible time - big hugs to you.
 
Wagtail said:
Thank you to those who have constructively replied to this thread and understood the point I was trying to make. I did try to quote you all but then lost the reply.

And those who have told their stories on here about the very sad call they have had to make; not one of you falls into the situation I am talking about. Not one.

The thread is not about what is right or wrong, but about the flippant way someone can say that they love their horse when in the same breath they have said that it will be PTS as soon as it can't work. There are, of course some very valid reasons for this, for example if the horse for whatever reason could not comfortably or happily retire. Only the owner knows this and I make no judgement on that. I am not saying this is wrong. Also, as I have previously said, some horses just get to you more than others and the same owner would not necessarily take the same action on the same decision with every one of them.

For those who say this thread is a troll post or just meant to upset people, how could it do that unless you are a person who intends to shoot their horse in order to get a new one but who also says they love the horse? And as someone says, these people are a very small minority.

Then there are the usual haters who just see any of my threads and jump in purposely misinterpreting what I have said and deflecting the thread, and making personal insults. I stopped engaging with you individually a long time ago. You know who you are. Contrary to what you say, you sit and wait for these threads (God knows where you find the time). You love my threads, so get over yourselves.

The thread was a reaction to what someone said on this forum. I have seen it said before and I just thought, no, you do not love your horse. I am surprised, if I am 'preaching to the choir' why so many people are objecting to this thread. It is not aimed at people who have to make that call and the horse is in pain, or they cannot afford to keep the horse in retirement, or the horse just would not settle in retirement (though these are rare horses). It is aimed at people who view their horses as riding machines who will shoot it when it is no longer of use even though they can afford to keep it when it is able to carry them AND in the same breath say they love the horse. They don't; they love RIDING the horse.
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Which is why if F has to have a quieter life or retire it will not be here, we only get 6 hours turnout in winter and overnight in summer. I would want him out most of the time, it is ok while he is working but I don't think extended time in a stable is good for any older horse.
 
I used to of the view that same routine minus riding was enough for a retired horse .
I have now based on experiances changed my mind .
I would now say same routine with access to proper sized large fields all year so they can move enough to maintain their tone ,it's not reasonable to keep the young ( pre work ) or old ( post work )horse in a restricted grazing set up .
 
Wagtail - I assume retirement involves a horse being in a muddy field because he will be in a field in the winter and it will get muddy. Whether he gets stabled as well is down to facilities and horse's health and preference.
 
Flicker said:
We have horses on our livery yard who are on the 'same routine minus the riding'. I'm not sure I'd have chosen it for my own horse. The yard is lovely and the staff very caring but it is set up to be a yard for horses in work. If the fields flood, for example, and everything stays in there are fab indoor facilities and a horse walker - no good for a horse with SI injuries as mine had. So he would have to stay in and maybe get walked in hand. Good luck with that with a spirited 16.3 ISH! Just one example of how it wouldn't work in my situation - believe me, I considered every option!!

I'm just trying to illustrate that, by making sweeping statements, you risk forgetting that everyone's situation is unique to them. Every decision based on a specific set of circumstances that lead you down a certain path and arrive at a unique outcome.

You seem really caring and a wonderful owner. Recognising the shades of grey in life, though, is a strength not a weakness. I hope I've chucked a couple in the mix for you :)

I'm glad I came across your thread, and I thank those who have responded in support of me, because it confirms that I did the right thing. Goldenstar, I'm thinking of you and I hope that you can find a way through this horrible time - big hugs to you.
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I completely agree with you. It is not all black and white. You make a decision based on the horse in front of you and the means you have for providing it with the care it needs. And also knowing when something will not suit the horse and so making the kindest decision for it. I support anyone who does this. But this thread is not about that. It is about people who only PTS to get rid of a horse that would happily retire, in order to make space for a new one and then profess to love the horse. Just who are they trying to kid? Themselves? I am not even criticising people actually doing this (it's not something I do myself, but so long as the horse is properly cared for and has a dignified end, then it doesn't make them a bad owner, as I said in my OP). But I cannot see how if someone actually loves a horse, and it WOULD be happy retired, and they can afford it, that they could snuff out its life in order to get a new one. That is all. Not one person who has criticised this thread or said they find it insulting actually fits the criteria, so I fail to see why they think I am aiming it at them. I am not. Though some of them know that.
 
I wonder what others would think of me and my treatment of my ewes when their days are over, from the viewpoint of them being useful. They go off as cull ewes and in to the food chain.

For those who keep and ride or breed horses, and when they have a horse which no longer fulfils the owners needs and importantly is of little or no commercial value, what is to be done with them?

The wonderful Mrs. Gingell who kept and hunted the Cambridgeshire Harriers, would buy in Hunt horses and on the rare occasions when for what ever reason, they didn't or couldn't fulfil their duties, they were fed to hounds.

Are those who decide that when the working days of a horse are over, and then decide to put them down, rather than re-home or otherwise pass them on, so wrong? Not from here they aren't. Are horses really any different from sheep? Not from here they aren't.

Alec.

ps. I love my sheep, and horses too! :)
 
spacefaer said:
Wagtail - I assume retirement involves a horse being in a muddy field because he will be in a field in the winter and it will get muddy. Whether he gets stabled as well is down to facilities and horse's health and preference.
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A lot of people see retirement as just chucking in the field and leaving. There are lots of options available to suit the requirements of individual horses. I have one here who is retired, but although he is out 24/7 with the other in the summer, he will be brought in within the same routine as them in the winter. The owner has three others retired to a field and they are happy. They are hardy types, but this one needs shoes and a stable in winter.
 
Merlod said:
I’m not sure people are getting the point, of this, there seem to be two extremes that nobody seems to be seeing past, I think this post was aimed at the first extreme;

1)People who put their horse down as soon as it’s riding career is over, even if it would be field sound and happy retired (and say things like he wouldn’t be happy living out at grass/retired.. um I don't count this as "love" stop pretending you are pts for your horses well-being and just admit it's for you own reasons)

2)People who keep their horses going even when it’s past their time and they are struggling with life (because they “love” them too much and just let the horse suffer on even when it can't get up anymore etc)

And then there are the “normal” varieties of these;

1)People who PTS because their horse is struggling or they can’t afford to keep it and they don’t want it passed from pillar to post.

2)People who retire their horses because they ARE field sound and still understand the horse will be PTS when the time comes.
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This is how I read the original post. I think the OP was talking about people who PTS when the horse can't fulfill the owner's needs any more (not because they are in pain/ill/disturbed per se) and they are not worth keeping alive unless they are performing a job. I guess it might be about how people decide whether there is an intrinsic value to life, not just functionality. I can see both sides though and it isn't unreasonable to expect a horse to do a job (whether it be ridden, or just a nice companion who enhances the owners life in another way).
 
Wagtail, may I ask what you hoped or intended to achieve by posting on this subject?

If it was to provoke thought and discussion, then I think you have succeeded - well done! But was it something more than just that?

Personally, I take the professing of love with a wee pinch of salt, i.e. I try not to read too much into it because what 'love' is varies from person to person. What one person feels as 'love' and what they think it signifies might not be exactly the same as the next person.
 
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fburton said:
Wagtail, may I ask what you hoped or intended to achieve by posting on this subject?

If it was to provoke thought and discussion, then I think you have succeeded - well done! But was it something more than just that?

Personally, I take the professing of love with a wee pinch of salt, i.e. I try not to read too much into it because what 'love' is varies from person to person. What one person feels as 'love' and what they think it signifies might not be the exactly same the next person.
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It was sparked by something someone said on here and I didn't want to single them out. It got me thinking about how I would have loved the opportunity to keep my old mare, my horse of a lifetime until her thirties but it was not to be; I was forced to make the decision to PTS. But if she had been happy and healthy then despite not being able to ride her, I would have wanted to keep her in comfortable retirement because I loved her dearly. I find it demeans the word 'love' to use it flippantly and thought that it would be interesting to hear others' views on the matter. I think perhaps the title could have been worded differently, and maybe it would have sounded less contentious, but it was posted off the cuff.

I guess what I was getting at was that IMO some people are deceiving themselves and/or others by saying they love their horses if they view them as so disposable. I think there is a general protectiveness going on in the horse world which makes it taboo to dare to criticize that type of view which is not present regarding other domestic animals such as dogs and this is an interesting point of discussion I think. Maybe if views could change so that horses became less disposable then fewer would be bred and go through the hardships that many endure.
 
Wagtail said:
I completely agree with you. It is not all black and white. You make a decision based on the horse in front of you and the means you have for providing it with the care it needs. And also knowing when something will not suit the horse and so making the kindest decision for it. I support anyone who does this. But this thread is not about that. It is about people who only PTS to get rid of a horse that would happily retire, in order to make space for a new one and then profess to love the horse. Just who are they trying to kid? Themselves? I am not even criticising people actually doing this (it's not something I do myself, but so long as the horse is properly cared for and has a dignified end, then it doesn't make them a bad owner, as I said in my OP). But I cannot see how if someone actually loves a horse, and it WOULD be happy retired, and they can afford it, that they could snuff out its life in order to get a new one. That is all. Not one person who has criticised this thread or said they find it insulting actually fits the criteria, so I fail to see why they think I am aiming it at them. I am not. Though some of them know that.
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Your saying you don't understand how people can love the horse and do this that different from saying they can't love the horse and do this and saying they have not the right to say they love the horse which is where you started .
 
Alec Swan said:
I wonder what others would think of me and my treatment of my ewes when their days are over, from the viewpoint of them being useful. They go off as cull ewes and in to the food chain.

For those who keep and ride or breed horses, and when they have a horse which no longer fulfils the owners needs and importantly is of little or no commercial value, what is to be done with them?

The wonderful Mrs. Gingell who kept and hunted the Cambridgeshire Harriers, would buy in Hunt horses and on the rare occasions when for what ever reason, they didn't or couldn't fulfil their duties, they were fed to hounds.

Are those who decide that when the working days of a horse are over, and then decide to put them down, rather than re-home or otherwise pass them on, so wrong? Not from here they aren't. Are horses really any different from sheep? Not from here they aren't.

Alec.

ps. I love my sheep, and horses too! :)
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Alec, I am not saying anything is actually wrong in any of the decisions people make regarding their animals. So long as they are well looked after and have a kind end, that is not wrong IMO. Love does have different meanings. 'I love that colour', 'I love riding', 'I love the wild birds I feed' for example. You love your sheep and horses, for example. But loving an individual (animal or human) is a different kind of love. When they die it devastates you, not just makes you a bit sad. You don't therefore kill them or send them to their deaths as a choice unless it was best for THEM. If you love them like that, then you couldn't. I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.
 
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Aww come on Alec has been here long enough to get his name right!

And here you go again on what YOU think love is and assuming other people can't possibly be feeling it because they make different decisions and say different things to what you think you would.
 
Wagtail said:
You love riding the horse and competing the horse and hunting the horse, or hacking, whatever, and you are probably a kind responsible owner, but you do not love your horse. If you really love your horse for itself, as a living, breathing being, then you would keep the horse in retirement, end of.
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Except that we have now added a load of caveats, including financial to that so not quite end of is it?

Wagtail said:
I am just saying that they do not love their horse and they shouldn't state that they do. They care for it and treat it well but they do not know what it is like to love a horse if that is what they think it is.

Also, not all horses are equal. Some get to you more than others. One day they may meet a horse that they really do love, and then to PTS so they can get a new one would be the last thing they would want to do.

Then they will know what it is like to love a horse.
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No you are saying that you don't think their actions show they love their horse, you have no fricking idea what they actually feel and whether they think that is love or wish to describe it as such or not is entirely up to them.
You seem to think for some reason that your 'love' is over riding of anyone else's concept and clearly the correct one and that because someone behaves differently to you they can't possibly be feeling it, they just think they do.

What a load of todswosh.
 
Mongoose11 said:
This is what riled people from the get go. Wagtail as the arbiter of love - it's laughable.
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It's not it's sad because it shows a lack of insight and empathy for those who think differently and believe different things .
All this talk of it being better if there fewer horses who they were less disposable that's irrelevant because if horse is unable to work how many other horses there are has no relevance to that horses situation .
Who is Wagtail to judge how devasted someone is .
I feel very sad that there's someone on the forum who will know this post is aimed at her and something she ( or he ) posted whoever you are have a hug from me .
 
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