Norway bans breeding of CKCS & English bulldog.

[skinnydipper]

"Oslo District Court has today ruled in the trial on unethical breeding. A unanimous verdict concludes that it is contrary to the Animal Welfare Act § 25 to breed the dog breeds English bulldog and cavalier king charles spaniel in Norway today.

Dommen from Oslo District Court is now ready. Animal protection Norway, and not least the animals, is winning in all respects.


An anniversary for our dogs

After a broad hearing of the case in Oslo District Court in November, Dyrebeskyttelsen Norge today received the happy news of a full victory.

The case is carefully handled by an experienced district court judge and two co-judges who are veterinarians and geneticists, respectively. Several of the expert witnesses in the case possess the highest professional competence in their fields, and the major health problems these dogs are bred with were thoroughly elucidated.

- It is a very thorough and principled judgment , which provides important legal framework for animal breeding, says lawyer Emanuel Feinberg in the law firm Glittertind.


Cross-breeding fully possible

The judgment states, among other things, that "A conviction does not imply a ban on serious breeding of Bulldog or Cavalier, as serious and scientifically based cross-breeding could be a good alternative." In the last 50 years, there has been a rapid technological and scientific development. In Norway, we have the infrastructure and technology to be able to achieve good, scientifically based breeding work. Our dogs deserve to benefit from this development, and the way we breed dogs must be adjusted according to the time available knowledge.

- The man-made health problems of the bulldog have been known since the early 20th century. This verdict comes a long way in overtime, says Roaldset.

For many decades, sick dogs have been bred in violation of Norwegian law. What has taken place here is a systematic and organized betrayal of our four-legged friends. Today it has been confirmed that it is a crime.


The ruling clarifies the need for change

Animal protection Norway has, among other things, proposed the introduction of ID marking and the systematic use of temperament, traits, health data and kinship data in breeding.

- Without traceability and the use of databases, it is impossible for the Norwegian Food Safety Authority to conduct effective supervision of dog breeding. In 2020, the EU came up with guidelines for dog breeding, it is natural that these guidelines will be leading for all dog breeding in Norway, both for purebred dogs and for mixed breed dogs, says Roaldset.

Many European countries have similar legislation, and a similar disease burden in their dogs. We hope that this ruling can help improve the health of dogs far beyond our borders. Honestly, the campaign and the trial have reached many corners of the world.

Today's date goes in as an anniversary for our dogs. EVERYONE who loves dogs has reason to celebrate today!

- This is an anniversary for our dogs! The Animal Welfare Act is intended to protect animals from the irrational actions of humans, and it has done so today. This is about the dogs' right to feel good, says general manager and veterinarian Åshild Roaldset"

https://www.dyrebeskyttelsen.no/202...wZ0Wapr6yqudN0ATti5vKNJhswF7Q0CsriwAyI6nyV6Ds

 

[Clodagh]

Bloody good news!
But why do people even buy them? I cannot get my head around wanting a dog that can’t even function when standing still.

 

[some show]

That's great news! I saw on facebook earlier this week that a 'breeder' had posted 'Got a massive announcement to make - the first litter of hairless French Bulldogs ever!' with a load of 'fire' emojis and all that rubbish. God knows what they've done to create those. And people WANT them. It's awful.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Do they mean cavaliers or just king charles. I know cavis have the SM issue but I believe responsible breeders are addressing it, but I wouldn't consider them seriously brachy. I know several who compete in agility and they are very speedy.
Talking of brachy breeds, I was at vets and woman brought in a Frenchie for a nail trim. She said he could be snappy and the nurse said well normally they would just muzzle but that could cause problems with breathing so suggested best approach would be a few visits to desensitise. So even everyday issues can be problematic for these poor dogs, yet they are becoming more and more popular, its crazy.

 

[Clodagh]

I did think a CKCS was a different ball game, they seem to be able to breathe although they do seem full of other issues.
English and French Bulldogs and pugs would seem to have made more sense?

 

[blackcob]

It’s not just about brachycephaly but other man-made health issues too - I haven’t seen a full translation yet but understand that the judgement is essentially that it’s not possible to breed a healthy CKCS in the current closed gene pool (endemic SM, heart diseases etc.)

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I think it’s the SM issue with ckcs. I remember seeing a post on here about a Crufts champion having it and had sired 50 litters or something terrifying.

Like Clodagh, I can’t imagine wanting a dog that can’t even breathe. Fit for function, surely? It’s just cruel otherwise. I think pugs are in need of help. There’s a supply teacher round here who runs with his, which is insane, you can see it struggling. ?

 

[skinnydipper]

CKCS are genetically predisposed to syringomyelia.

 

[Smitty]

My ex and I were given a lovely 2 yo cav about 25 years ago. He was not particularly brachy and was a very tough little dog who used to do long walks etc. His particular hobby was chasing butterflies and I can still picture him now bogging off after one, leaping through tall grass to catch it. He was prone to eye infections and without much doubt had SM.

As for these bulldog things, I'm sure they are getting uglier by the day and what exactly is their purpose? When I was in the vets the other day a young woman came in with a bulldog (of some description) puppy with a severely squashed up face and folds and folds of skin. Several people came and admired it - apparently it was a "chunk".

 

[some show]

As for these bulldog things, I'm sure they are getting uglier by the day and what exactly is their purpose? When I was in the vets the other day a young woman came in with a bulldog (of some description) puppy with a severely squashed up face and folds and folds of skin. Several people came and admired it - apparently it was a "chunk".

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but I don't get it either! Maybe it's because I like big dogs with long noses, but the squashed up face look is not for me. Aside from all the inherent health issues that come with it!

 

[smolmaus]

I heard someone suggest once that the squashed fat faces made them look more like human babies. Which would make sense since the people I know who love them don't seem to actually love dogs and the people I know who love dogs wouldn't go near them with a bargepole.

 

[windand rain]

I am not sure I agree about Cavvies to be honest the last 10 years has seen huge moves with health testing and careful breeding to eliminate a lot of their problems MRI scanning for syrinx heart scans and eye testing have done a pretty good job of reducing breed problems. Daughters pup came from scanned parents and is a tough cookie full of fun

 

[Jenko109]

When you get a dog, you will fall in love with it. Providing it's the correct breed for your lifestyle, then you will be totally smitten and in love.

I will never understand why people will choose a breed that they know is more likely to be plagued by illness or die early or whatever. Why do it to yourself? Losing a dog hurts!!

 

[Karran]

I am not sure I agree about Cavvies to be honest the last 10 years has seen huge moves with health testing and careful breeding to eliminate a lot of their problems MRI scanning for syrinx heart scans and eye testing have done a pretty good job of reducing breed problems.

I was wondering about that. What if you're a breeder actively looking to improve the breed? Like the people breeding longer nosed Frenchies? Seems a shame to effectively punish them for trying to fix some of the issues.

 

[skinnydipper]

How much time do breeders need before they make changes?

Syringomyelia first identified in CKCS in 1997.

Norway presumably felt that breeders had had long enough to get their act together.

 

[some show]

An article about the same thing on another site clarifies:

'In its judgement, the court stressed that the ban on breeding the dogs would not extend to breeders seeking to end the animals' health problems. "A conviction does not imply a ban on serious breeding of Bulldog or Cavalier, as serious and scientifically based cross-breeding could be a good alternative," it ruled.'

 

[CorvusCorax]

Unfortunately the responsible (and the dogs) suffer at the hands of the irresponsible.

If people don't get their houses in order and make stronger representation, more Governments will step in.
There's some concerning stuff going on in Germany too, pushed by a powerful animal rights lobby, unfortunately the German kennel club and FCI took their eye off the ball and were too busy wasting time and money trying to preserve their illegal monopoly rather than lobbying for dogs and dog people.

 

[YorksG]

I will never understand why people will choose a breed that they know is more likely to be plagued by illness or die early or whatever. Why do it to yourself? Losing a dog hurts!!

Absolutely this, which is why we have, sadly, decided to not have any more Rottweilers. Wonderful dogs, but having lost the last two and 6 and 8, to cancer and knowing that this is not unusual, we have got labs.

 

[Moobli]

I think it is quite extreme and feel that banning things is rarely a good solution but definitely agree something needs to be done. I would prefer to see a programme implemented for sensible outcrossing of certain breeds to try to eliminate the extremes of conformation, breathing difficulties, heart issues and all the other problems associated with particular breeds to help them become healthier versions. I wonder where something like banning breeds might end. Where will the line be drawn? Do we ban breeds with high incidences of heart problems, cancer, hip dysplasia or epilepsy next?

 

[Clodagh]

I think it is quite extreme and feel that banning things is rarely a good solution but definitely agree something needs to be done. I would prefer to see a programme implemented for sensible outcrossing of certain breeds to try to eliminate the extremes of conformation, breathing difficulties, heart issues and all the other problems associated with particular breeds to help them become healthier versions. I wonder where something like banning breeds might end. Where will the line be drawn? Do we ban breeds with high incidences of heart problems, cancer, hip dysplasia or epilepsy next?

Dachshunds as they have spine problems?

The KC has done absolutely nothing about dog health. They will not allow any outcrossing even in rare breeds with minuscule gene pool.
Any brachy dog that has breathing surgery should have to be neutered. The fact that surgically altered dogs can have endless litters is ridiculous.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As I said before, this is what you get. You moot fairly basic/easy to implement restrictions on breeding or put stipulations in place like they do on the continent, which could actually make money for kennel clubs and incentivise good breeding, and people say 'nooo it's to haaaaaard'.

There are a tonne of popular breeds with health issues, dysplastic labs and spaniels, epileptic collies, people think these bans shouldn't apply to their dogs/their breed but are fine with it happening to others. Some people don't see a problem with breeding from an animal that has fitted in the past or has no health tests or poor results, but will cheer this move. Brachy breeds are just the issue du jour, but it could come to all our doors.

I've seen a kennel club register half brother/half sister matings and when you go back to them, they say 'oh it's not illegal, you're just advised to avoid doing it'. And this is what puts buyers off and drives them into the arms of backyard breeders who are doing no better, and perhaps worse.

We all know better and we should all do better, the bare minimum isn't enough.

 

[AmyMay]

Dachshunds as they have spine problems?

The KC has done absolutely nothing about dog health. They will not allow any outcrossing even in rare breeds with minuscule gene pool.
Any brachy dog that has breathing surgery should have to be neutered. The fact that surgically altered dogs can have endless litters is ridiculous.

We were offered an ex breeding Dachshund a few weeks ago. OH was quite keen to take her, but I said no. I love them as a breed, but I wasn’t prepared to take on the possible veterinary bills.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Absolutely this, which is why we have, sadly, decided to not have any more Rottweilers. Wonderful dogs, but having lost the last two and 6 and 8, to cancer and knowing that this is not unusual, we have got labs.

Its why I won't have any more setters, I am on several setter groups and too many have issues, as did my own.

I thought CKCS had done quite a bit to improve the breed? I've always fancied a couple when I need lapdogs in my dotage-I've only known a few back in the early 90s and they were splendid little dogs.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Seeing as I am on a roll, I have come to the conclusion that dogs and dog breeders and dog owners are largely being failed by the agencies which are supposed to advocate for them. How in touch with the average dog owner or indeed the working dog person are the (mainly male) stuffed shirts who sit at the top levels of the money-making all-breed cabals which should be representing the best interests of pedigree dogs? Or are they just, as I suspect they always were, gentlemens' clubs aimed at generating opportunities among favoured members? I'm afraid I will never be convinced that anyone other than the breed organisations should be the ones to take responsibility for their own affairs/breeding programmes.

 

[Clodagh]

Seeing as I am on a roll, I have come to the conclusion that dogs and dog breeders and dog owners are largely being failed by the agencies which are supposed to advocate for them. How in touch with the average dog owner or indeed the working dog person are the (mainly male) stuffed shirts who sit at the top levels of the money-making all-breed cabals which should be representing the best interests of pedigree dogs? Or are they just, as I suspect they always were, gentlemens' clubs aimed at generating opportunities among favoured members? I'm afraid I will never be convinced that anyone other than the breed organisations should be the ones to take responsibility for their own affairs/breeding programmes.

From what you have said in the past I thought the European KC’s were much more proactive about health?

Over here I cannot understand how anything can be used for breeding without some form of accredited health test. A Labrador (for instance) should not be able to have registerable offspring without hips, elbows, eyes, all scored below an acceptable level of risk.
Working certification is hard as some full on triallers Might not be what people want. But health definitely.
And in breeding coefficient should count too. Surely it’s not rocket science?

 

[CorvusCorax]

They're better, but it's the breed societies/registries which largely push the health testing and put in place the stipulations/police things. The FCI has a health testing scheme but do not hold a central registry where results can be checked. Not one that I've ever been able to find, anyway.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I thought CKCS had done quite a bit to improve the breed? I've always fancied a couple when I need lapdogs in my dotage-I've only known a few back in the early 90s and they were splendid little dogs.

This pic would have taken in 1995, our Cavalier (and our son!) would have been just over a year old. We were recommended getting one by a vet friend as the most baby/toddler tolerant breed. They were known to be prone to heart problems then, but we got a good 10 years from her.

Cracking little dog, I would have another if I could be sure of the Syringomyelia situ - that was not known of back in '95, I think? It's a horrendous sounding condition .

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I read an article awhile ago about that since 2017 the Finnish Kennel Club have a walk test for breeds like e.g. English Bulldog, French Bulldog, King Charles Spaniel, and Shih Tzu, which they've developed together with the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Helsinki.
In the article I read, it said that only in these few years since the testing started, they've already seen some decrease in the numbers of dogs coming to their veterinarians with severe breathing problems. Typically enough I didn't find that article again when I just googled it, but I found this which at least briefly covers the basics of their walk test:
https://www.kennelliitto.fi/en/abou...inate-dogs-severe-breathing-problems-breeding

Also read somewhere that the Dutch Kennel Club is supposed to have a similar walking test. I wish the Swedish Kennel Club started something similar.

I will readily admit that even though I own Lapphunds with what I would say are an average muzzle length, and even though I admire the beauty in long muzzled Afghan hounds, Salukis etc, I also do have a soft spot for breeds with squished muzzles, like French Bulldogs.

I just wish that there was a happy medium, with more moderately squished muzzles. Instead of what today in some breeds sometimes looks like they've tried to squish the muzzle all the way into the skull. Even if it is some human babyface appeal behind why some people like dogs with squished muzzles, I don't think it's natural for babies to look like their noses have been squished all the way into their skulls, or am I wrong?
I suppose I could be wrong, personally I've always preferred children over the age where they can blow their own nose, so I haven't really paid that much attention to the smaller versions.

Surely it should be possible to calculate a minimum muzzle length which is less likely to cause breathing problems, and make it a breeding aim in the affected breeds to reach that muzzle length.

By the way, I agree with the suggestion that dogs that needs corrective surgery for breathing problems, should automatically also be neutered.
A second by the way, for the last years I've occasionally met a jogger with first it was 2 GSDs, and a Frenchie, then it became only 1 GSD, and the Frenchie out on my dog walks. The Frenchie usually runs loose, and none of the times I've seen him run past us, either besides his owner, or after a pee stop, after his owner, have that Frenchie looked anything but happy, and perky.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Seeing as I am on a roll, I have come to the conclusion that dogs and dog breeders and dog owners are largely being failed by the agencies which are supposed to advocate for them. How in touch with the average dog owner or indeed the working dog person are the (mainly male) stuffed shirts who sit at the top levels of the money-making all-breed cabals which should be representing the best interests of pedigree dogs? Or are they just, as I suspect they always were, gentlemens' clubs aimed at generating opportunities among favoured members? I'm afraid I will never be convinced that anyone other than the breed organisations should be the ones to take responsibility for their own affairs/breeding programmes.

Well said. Even if there are, like in most organisations, a risk for that the people involved in it, becomes narrow-minded, and having their own agendas, and prejudices, what guarantees are there that these other people make their decisions without prejudices? I mean e.g. there certainly are some animal rights people which also can be described as being narrow-minded, and having their own agendas, and prejudices.

And if PETA ever gets the final vote, nobody of us will be owning any type of dogs at all.
Or cats.
Or horses.

 

[blackcob]

Taken from KC data for 2020. There's an update on the Cavalier Club page saying that as of 2021 365 dogs had now participated, however the results are still not published/public. Tools are there, they are not being used and the process and results are not transparent.