Noseband/bit for horse with a sensitive mouth?

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NicoleandRosy

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I've finally come to the conclusion something has to give. My mare is nearly 16.2hh and still bum high and her excitement is too much to hold any longer.

She has only ever had a full cheek copper snaffle with a lozenge since being broken in. Which is over 2 years! However, in a school she is a saint. Listens, no evasion, pulling, yanking etc. Hacking out is a death wish. She throws her head to the floor, snatches the bit, pulls and yanks and eventually evades and takes off. It's even worse with horses that are slightly in front or take off as I have ZERO brakes, and now have to consider safety.

Can anyone recommend any noseband (prefer this before changing bit) that may help? As she's not fussed on poll pressure so need something to exasperate the pressure elsewhere. Or a very soft bit that may provide some form of assistance? Nothing harsh as this will worsen the problem.

I'm hoping to hunt ans do fun rides but without brakes we have no chance.. NO bitless bridles as I've already tried and she becomes frustrated and it makes matters worse..

Thanks.
 
In the end, however strong the bit, the training has to be in place. The best way to stop a horse running though a bridle is lots of neck flexions and shoulder in. Make your 'hack' into schooling ride until you are feeling more comfortable?. If possible, do 10 mins warming up in the school, 10 minutes out 'hacking' full of neck flexions and shoulder in and then 10 mins back in the school, she is clearly just equating going out on a hack with lawlessness and you have to somehow make the two activities less separate.

Neck flexious and shoulder in are particularly useful tricks on a hack, as they mean you don't have to have short tense reins (which will in itself help the horse relax) but you can keep there attention. Also, as I am sure you know, you can turn their head away from the thing you think might scare them, and finally, it is a lot easier to stop a horse by turning its neck (bring your inside hand UP and Back in a very exaggerated 'shoulder in' in emergencies to disengage the hind leg) but remember the trick is in the release not the pull.

However, if you want to go the bit route, how about a rubber pelham ridden with double reins. A kinder bit in the mouth, but the bottom rein there if you need it?

I personally absolute hate grackles and drop nosebands. I would always prefer a horse to 'express' itself through the mouth, if you tie down the mouth, they may well express themselves in a less pleasant manner, it will come out somewhere!
 
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canteron said:
In the end, however strong the bit, the training has to be in place. The best way to stop a horse running though a bridle is lots of neck flexions and shoulder in. Make your 'hack' into schooling ride until you are feeling more comfortable?. If possible, do 10 mins warming up in the school, 10 minutes out 'hacking' full of neck flexions and shoulder in and then 10 mins back in the school, she is clearly just equating going out on a hack with lawlessness and you have to somehow make the two activities less separate.

However, if you want to go the bit route, how about a rubber pelham ridden with double reins. A kinder bit in the mouth, but the bottom rein there if you need it?

I personally absolute hate grackles and drop nosebands. I would always prefer a horse to 'express' itself through the mouth, if you tie down the mouth, they may well express themselves in a less pleasant manner, it will come out somewhere!
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I do not want to strap her down with silly gadgets, however, she is far too big and strong for me to hold her, and has come to a point where her excitement has taken us onto main roads and in front of cars.

In a school she listens to every word, works off my leg and voice. Hacking out is simply an explosion of her excitement. To an extent that even encouraging half halts she will try to evade by working sideways in practically every gait. She aimply wants to run. However, she was bred for speed and stamina as her sire and his bloodlines are all racehorses and her dam and her bloodlines are all eventers and showjumpers, and basic work or schooling isn't feeding her mentally enough.. so it seems. :(

I'd prefer to try a step above a full cheek snaffle and see how that goes. But need something VERY soft but one that will provide a little more assistance.
 
Maybe consider a Kimblewick? Perhaps the one without the rein slots at first, that gives you something akin to a hanging cheek snaffle with a curb (you could use an elastic or leather curb instead of a chain)

They are an unfashionable bit but an overlooked one IMHO
 
I have just put my very sensitive horse into a Micklem, he has a nathe full cheek which suits his mouth, I have extra control now without resorting to a stronger bit which he cannot cope with.

I am surprised that a horse that is well educated in the school becomes so different out hacking, I usually find the two go together, if they are mannerly in a school it transfers to hacking as long as the rider rides much the same way and doesn't encourage them to mess about, is the schooling stimulating her enough, if they are genuinely working correctly they should be challenged by new things and enjoy a relaxing hack to unwind afterwards, I would be hacking at walk and trot only until she starts to learn there is no fast work, a few good long uphill trots should help her settle.
 
Could you get access to a schooling field? Try schooling in there a little as it is a sort of bridge between hacking and schooling in the arena. She may play up, but if you are in an enclosed field there should be less to worry about (jumping in front of cars) so you are more relaxed. Then once she behaves in the schooling field you can introduce short bits of hacking. If she starts getting bouncy and rude then introduce some schooling exercises, shoulder in, circles, turn on forehand, leg yields, concentrating on getting her to listen and associate hacking with work rather than crazy fun times. Also try and remain calm - you may be tensing up with the expectation of trouble which will make her play up and get tense too, try and remain relaxed and chilled out so that it might help her calm down. Maybe go out with a foot soldier as backup with a lead rein so that if she starts mucking about they can clip on and walk with you until she relaxes again and then unclip. :) good luck

ETA: also try in hand hacking - so take her out in bridle (and saddle if you like) in hand. Try to desensitise her to the whole hacking experience. In-hand hacking works well to relax everyone and go at a slower pace. It may help her have confidence in you out hacking and respect you a little more :)
 
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I had a very similar problem, although a very different horse (she's a Westphalian Draft), who had run away with her previous owner. She wears a NS Tranz for schooling in our field and never attempts to go faster than she is asked to do. However, hacking is a different matter, especially in company. I use a NS Universal with 2 reins, I ride mostly on the snaffle rein but I have the curb rein available if I need it - and she knows that I do!

I really dislike nosebands which fasten the mouth shut, although occasionally, the odd horse does respond to the stability of a drop.
 
Do you hack her straight out or burn off some beans on the lunge or in the school first?

As an 'emergency' temporary, measure you could add a kineton/combination nose band to your current bit, but as you say gadgeting her up isn't a good way forward. When I'm hacking green horses out I add in lots of halts, rein backs and short changes of pace and circles with changes of rein with an emphasis on keeping them listening to voice command too, to keep them listening, thinking, attentive and not being able to anticipate what I will ask next or just thinking that hacking out is going to be a just a good blast out of the classroom every time.
 
A change of tack is not going to sort this problem out. However if you need a stronger bit to remain safe then don't be afraid to change it to something stronger.

My tactic would be to extend the school attitude to a hack and to make a hack a bit more boring. I would school her in the school so that she is responsive and has had a chance to use up some of her energy. Then take her straight out for a hack but continue with the schooling and keep her focussed on you and on doing what you ask. You can do a lot of schooling while hacking - shoulder in, transitions, circles, halts etc. I'd keep it short - 5 mins to begin with and then make it longer once she is good for 5 mins. I would not go out in company until she is good on her own, far too exciting and fun!
 
Kylara said:
ETA: also try in hand hacking - so take her out in bridle (and saddle if you like) in hand. Try to desensitise her to the whole hacking experience. In-hand hacking works well to relax everyone and go at a slower pace. It may help her have confidence in you out hacking and respect you a little more :)
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good idea, walking out and long reining out, going back to basics a bit is often a good way forward. Also meant to ask if she's stabled or lives out?
 
I hate gadgets. I managed to 'wean' her off her breastplate/martingale, and it has only been the past few months I've had to reintroduce it due to her head throwing, putting her head to the floor to evade, and her threatening to rear if she couldn't gallop off. She's now learned how to evade her bit after 2 years of it successfully working.

In the school she relaxes and listens. Works off my leg, circles brilliantly. Not so much as a blink of an eye. However hacking out worsens her attitude. She jogs everywhere, pranxes on the spot with her tail up and ears pinned, if a horse is ahead of her slightly she'll take off until she passes them and I'm lucky to stop then! The other week the horse was a metre or 2 in front, she went from trot to full gallop, cleared a jump nearly knocking me out and flew up their backside trying to push them out the way!

Half halts she works sideways with regardless. And if you asj her to stop she'll run sideways, throw her head about, lean on the bit, yank and pull til she evades contact and she's off.

I have done in hand hacking and walking before she was started under saddle for over 6 months and she was the same then.. I don't particularly want to lose the soft mouth as I've worked my ass off to get it that way and her listening. She's just the same in company or alone, and it just doesn't seem.to be mentally stimulating her and she just fizzes up and explodes with excitement.. :/
 
My mare was once capable of being ridden by an inexperienced 9 year old in an open field with loose horses and not once put a foot wrong. Now she just loves being out and prefers a faster pace over walk and trot. And believe me, I've tried to hold! She's pushing 16.2hh so not small and easily man handled should you call it that and is set at making 16.3 at least! I'm only 5'3" ans 8 1/2 stone so incapable strength wise of holding her. I don't want ridden work to be seen as a constant battle..
 
I agree with other posters, something with 2 sets of reins is your best friend. Straight bar is generally softer than broken. You need to be able to control her or you two might end up in a nasty accident.
 
I'm assuming that her teeth are up-to-date.

Having read back through your posts, I do wonder if what has changed is discomfort/pain-related.

NS bits are reputed to be horse-friendly, they do seem to like the metal.
 
Everything up to date. Having dentist out again as precautionary. No pain related. As soon as you tack up and mount, she trots off the yard with you clinging on if you don't mount fast enough. She just becomes overly excited and throws a huge tantrum if she can't do as she pleases..
 
I'm not sure a different bit/noseband is going to help - but maybe a pro to sit on her, assess what's going on and come up with a plan to sort out what appears to be an increasingly dangerous game. It shouldn't matter whether she's an ex racehorse or a seaside donkey - she should stand to be mounted, move off when you tell her to, and behave herself whenever she is under saddle, not just when she's in the school. I used to work for a 3 day event rider, and we hacked out hyper fit advanced horses in walk on the buckle end of the reins. I'm sure they weren't mentally challenged, and found it as dull as we did - but even when they were so fit they could barely contain themselves, they didn't behave like this mare does. From what you're saying on here, she comes across as a horse without manners under saddle, who is in charge of the situation. This needs to be sorted out pdq before there's a nasty accident. I don't advocate getting tough with horses, and using force to "sort them out", but equally, I don't let horses call the shots when it puts them and me at risk. A happy medium needs to be found, and quickly.
 
Well typically me I will say the opposite to many. A correctly fitted noseband does not prevent a horse from expressing itself but prevents the horse from being downright rude which is what this horse is doing.

I would hazard a guess that they have had a fun ride or too, probably in company where a lovely strong canter was had by all. Riding out is now a seriously fun thing to do - in the horses mind.

I remember years back my lovely well mannered young mare who had been a treasure to hack turned into a monster, why? She was on full livery for a month while work hours had been very long and she had been exercised by staff, and they had been to Chorleywood Common and had some fun. She was never as easy after that.

I'd also suggest a Uttoxeter, with a Cambridge mouth so that the tongue has space and the action is more on the bars. Then you have the choice of slots to fit the reins to. You can also turn it into a Kimblewick by fitting the reins to the bit ring rather than the slots.

You say though she is not happy with poll pressure, so anything with a curb may aggravate the problem.

Has she pulled back at any time? As this can put the poll out, which could in turn make her uncomfortable in the poll. Sometimes being excited can make areas that don't normally hurt uncomfortable.

When she puts her head down, use one rein sharply to unbalance the bit and get her head up. Unfortunately at times we have to fight fire with fire and be a little tougher than we like to be. Be strong and firm and reward immediately the head is back up by softening the contact.
 
I had her at 2 and a half years old. Prior to this and still to this day, most are afraid of her as she is intimidating. With me she gets a good kick up her ass if she steps out of line. Even at walk she won't walk.. she jogs and prances. A few weeks back she got off the yard, pranced a few steps, head between her legs bucking and squealing at gallop trying to ram 2 horses out the way!

She doesn't grasp how to control her excitement. She listens... eventually with me fighting consistently. But a few weeks ago, because ONE horse crossed the road and cantered on the grass and I didn't let her (she was stood with another horse), she ran sideways bouncing off the floor, throwing her head, tried evading the bit, and started squealing like an idiot and snorting until I had to physically shout and sharply turn her several times. Out of a 3 hour ride she must have walked 10 minutes? The rest consisted of jogging, prancing, trotting and tanking off.

No one will get on her. And I've had people watch and advise from the ground who have all said she's fighting the bit contact, opening her mouth and evading by yanking and pulling. I need a decent bit without excessive poll pressure, better still no poll pressure.

But it MUST be soft as she is sensitive.. :/
 
NicoleandRosy said:
Everything up to date. Having dentist out again as precautionary. No pain related. As soon as you tack up and mount, she trots off the yard with you clinging on if you don't mount fast enough. She just becomes overly excited and throws a huge tantrum if she can't do as she pleases..
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Well there is your answer!

She has been allowed to push the boundaries, so she is continuing to push them. I would take her back to the beginning with mounting, insisting that she stands still and not taking her anywhere until she does that properly.
When you school, do you mount on the yard or in the school?

ETA, if she is fighting the bit you are using, you need a different one - and I would choose one which is made of a different material, in case that is what she is reacting to. What is she fed on?
 
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Just a suggestion - start hacking her out when she is tired. Go and work her hard in the school so that all the steam is spent and then see if you can get a sensible ride from her.

If this works, reduce the time in the school each time until you can safely go out on a hack without her having a tantrum and you having to work her in the school first.

I echo the suggestion someone made about spending time practising the mounting. AS you mount - if she goes to move get off and return her to the mounting block.
 
NicoleandRosy said:
I had her at 2 and a half years old. Prior to this and still to this day, most are afraid of her as she is intimidating. With me she gets a good kick up her ass if she steps out of line. Even at walk she won't walk.. she jogs and prances. A few weeks back she got off the yard, pranced a few steps, head between her legs bucking and squealing at gallop trying to ram 2 horses out the way!

She doesn't grasp how to control her excitement. She listens... eventually with me fighting consistently. But a few weeks ago, because ONE horse crossed the road and cantered on the grass and I didn't let her (she was stood with another horse), she ran sideways bouncing off the floor, throwing her head, tried evading the bit, and started squealing like an idiot and snorting until I had to physically shout and sharply turn her several times. Out of a 3 hour ride she must have walked 10 minutes? The rest consisted of jogging, prancing, trotting and tanking off.

No one will get on her. And I've had people watch and advise from the ground who have all said she's fighting the bit contact, opening her mouth and evading by yanking and pulling. I need a decent bit without excessive poll pressure, better still no poll pressure.

But it MUST be soft as she is sensitive.. :/
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I don't call this sort of behaviour excitement, she sounds bad mannered totally in command and as if she makes the rules not you, how anyone can put up with a horse that can only walk 10 mins out of 3 hours is beyond me especially as you have had her from early in her life so should have been able to start her the correct way.

Changing the bit will only give you a few more brakes until she discovers another evasion to add to her already long list, she actually sounds very confused, she is trying to avoid the bit possibly as she does not understand what you really want, horses do not fight against themselves she is fighting you not just the bit.

I would be going right back to basics on the ground, getting some experienced help and work towards getting her settled, relaxed and confident, her mouth may be sensitive so does she need a stronger bit when most of what is going on is in her mind not her mouth, you can anchor the front end but the nervous energy will go somewhere and she may become worse.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Well there is your answer!

She has been allowed to push the boundaries, so she is continuing to push them. I would take her back to the beginning with mounting, insisting that she stands still and not taking her anywhere until she does that properly.
When you school, do you mount on the yard or in the school?

ETA, if she is fighting the bit you are using, you need a different one - and I would choose one which is made of a different material, in case that is what she is reacting to. What is she fed on?
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Mount on yard and she stands like a lemon. Only when she is hacking out do you have to mount quickly as she reacts to the weight in the stirrups.

Regarding bit, I was thinking of a waterford snaffle or have been advised with a rubber pelham as it has the similarity use of a snaffle with the added option of a second rein to "back up" what you ask.

Right now.. nothing other than hay. In winter it is sugarbeet, chaff and a mix. But she's worse come spring/summer and chills right down in winter.
 
be positive said:
I don't call this sort of behaviour excitement, she sounds bad mannered totally in command and as if she makes the rules not you, how anyone can put up with a horse that can only walk 10 mins out of 3 hours is beyond me especially as you have had her from early in her life so should have been able to start her the correct way.

Changing the bit will only give you a few more brakes until she discovers another evasion to add to her already long list, she actually sounds very confused, she is trying to avoid the bit possibly as she does not understand what you really want, horses do not fight against themselves she is fighting you not just the bit.

I would be going right back to basics on the ground, getting some experienced help and work towards getting her settled, relaxed and confident, her mouth may be sensitive so does she need a stronger bit when most of what is going on is in her mind not her mouth, you can anchor the front end but the nervous energy will go somewhere and she may become worse.
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Well considering from how she was.. that's attempting to rear vertical and land on you, charge, try to kick you in your face etc, she's come a hell of a way. I've spent a year de sensitising her, working on ground, in hand walks/hacks.

It is only when in company and another horse goes a little in front does she wind up and explode. On her own she is nervous and spooky.. my own cause as I haven't ridden her enough alone (she used to hack out 4 hours without putting a foot wrong). I can shout and she'll run shaking in the corner of her stable. She knows a bit better than to try it on with me.

I have back and knee health issues. So having to spend 3 hours sat holding her is physically draining. And it's a bit hard when you have zero brakes and your horse tanks off down a road. She sets her eyes on something and seems to blank out any contact with the bit. And even when you half halt she goes sideways, and if you try and slow her she fights you completely.
 
Tnavas said:
Just a suggestion - start hacking her out when she is tired. Go and work her hard in the school so that all the steam is spent and then see if you can get a sensible ride from her.

If this works, reduce the time in the school each time until you can safely go out on a hack without her having a tantrum and you having to work her in the school first.

I echo the suggestion someone made about spending time practising the mounting. AS you mount - if she goes to move get off and return her to the mounting block.
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The problem is even if you run her hard, she doesn't tire. She gets her energy out of nowhere! And will still do the same. I managed to hack out 3 hours and still she tanked off coming back.

She's only like this when hacking out. Mounting for the school she is fine.
 
NicoleandRosy said:
The problem is even if you run her hard, she doesn't tire. She gets her energy out of nowhere! And will still do the same. I managed to hack out 3 hours and still she tanked off coming back.

She's only like this when hacking out. Mounting for the school she is fine.
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Think you have an Endurance horse there. The horse I spoke of earlier was the same - she never tired!
 
I have just looked at your previous posts, this mare has some behaviour issues that have been going on for some time, only a few weeks ago you thought she may be in foal, has she been looked at by a vet?

She sounds to me that at just 5 she has become very wound up, especially if she was a tricky young horse, she is running on adrenaline and really does need to be quietly taken back several stages to learn that life is not all about galloping round the countryside if she is going to have a useful future, if not unless something is wrong physically that can be sorted she is going to end up becoming a danger to you, herself and anyone who rides out with you, get some professional help, running her into the ground is not the answer for this type of horse they will run until they drop as they don't know any different.

A horse that shakes when you shout is not confident in you, she may not try it on because she is scared not because she trusts, that confidence is required when you ride her.
I would imagine her heart rate would be so high endurance would not be an option, endurance horses need to be relaxed not wired all the time they are in company.
 
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