Nosebands and forcing your horses mouth shut....thoughts??

My mare has a lovely bridle by Privelige Equitation that had a removable flash hanger, so now it looks just like a normal cavesson :)

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I started my youngster in a flash (because bridle came like that), but he was a pain to untack, and I tried a drop which he told me in no uncertain terms he didn't like, so I've taken the noseband off completely. I will look for a plain cavesson that I have done up loose just so it looks a better picture. He is just 5, 17.3hh WB.

If I was hunting or eventing I might consider nosebands a factor but just doing a bit of hacking and schooling it's made no negative difference removing it altogether.
 
I watched a male pro eventer tighten a noseband so tight the other day and then hitch it up over the head to tighten it even more! At one point two men were pulling on it together! Not a pretty sight I can tell you.
 
kc100 said:
I think we've identified a gap in the market - that was exactly what I was looking for (love a bit of patent and white!) but could not find it for love nor money without the damn flash and crank! Gave up and bought a comfort bridle with plain cavesson but is distinctly non-shiny or with any white to be seen so a poor compromise (from my dressage blingy POV) but hopefully a much happier bonkers horse instead. Does have some fancy gold/brass buckles (didnt notice them on the picture on ebay) which almost match my accidental gold stirrups (think I need glasses....saw the pic and thought they were silver!) so at least I'm sort of co-ordinated!
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I'm currently waiting on a padded headpiece bridle with a drop noseband in cognac from FSS bridles (ebay). Will let you all know about the quality once it arrives but they do some seriously blingy bridles, not all with flashes. I had the option of getting a caverson attachment too, but thought i'd wait and see what the quality was like first.
 
As with everything, different horses prefer different nosebands, some love a drop, some loathe it, it can just be trial and error. I use nosebands on my horses as they are dressage horses and have to compete in one, but its not tight whichever noseband i use. On the subject of different things i do play about with my grown up horses (not youngsters, i'm not brave enough!) and ride bareback, and headcollars etc. The first time i ride bareback i do have a bridle on, but if the horse is happy, then i'll do a bit bareback with a headcollar, its great fun on a comfy horse, my lovely advanced girl will happily piaffe bareback in a headcollar.
 
stilltrying said:
I'm currently waiting on a padded headpiece bridle with a drop noseband in cognac from FSS bridles (ebay). Will let you all know about the quality once it arrives but they do some seriously blingy bridles, not all with flashes. I had the option of getting a caverson attachment too, but thought i'd wait and see what the quality was like first.
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I have an FSS double bridle, patent crank noseband. Quality is great - had mine three years and ride in it regularly, still looks good!!

They do lots without flashes but most are cranks :(
 
JFTD said:
Dae wears a drop because I can use it to shut his mouth and stop him biting the lead horse when ride and lead :p Mostly he wears it so he doesn't bite me / other horses / himself / passing strangers...
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This really made me chuckle! :) I now have images of him basically snarling and snapping at everything! :)
 
I normally ride mine in just a cavesson but I put a flash on for dressage tests. I don't do it up too tight, just enough so it doesn't look baggy.

My naughty knickers likes to stick his tongue out the side. He does sometimes do it when evading the contact but will also do it with just a headcollar on! It even flaps in time to the canter. Most of the time I leave him in the cavesson as he does work nicely in it, however dressage judges tend to be less than impressed when he gives them a full on tongue wave as he goes past the car! :p
 
Pony is a Highland and only 5 so just in a nice flat cavesson atm. I've had various people tell me that she would 'Go better' in a flash or drop and would look 'Nicer' with a grakle. When I approached about just how her way of going would be improved by a piece of leather strapping her mouth shut, I was met with a quiet mumble about how it will stop her occasionally sticking her tongue out when she stretches long and low. I was also told to 'Stick a martingale' on her as it will stop her from 'Poking her nose out'. Excuse my 5 year old who has been broken all of a few months for not being able to maintain a constant outline...

I, like many other people here, would rather work to improve these things without seeking the need of gadgets and devices. Yes it might take longer than simply strapping a piece of leather round her mouth or stopping her from putting her head up but I don't care. I don't want my girl strapped down and shut. She is 5 years old and to be honest, I'd rather not even be thinking about additional pieces of tack aside from the saddle and bridle until a bit later on in the game!

Interesting how people think they seem to know your horses needs better than you! :)
 
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Out of interest - those of you who say their horses hated the crank, why is this? I've always done them up as per a normal cavesson (2 fingers space) and it never occurred to me that some may still not like them.

Interestingly, my horse in Spain was a nightmare in a canter on a hack a few months ago - he'd not been hacking out in the area for long and struggled to balance so leaned on the bit with his mouth open and got faster. I put a cavesson on him and it made a huge difference, it was just enough to keep the mouth softer. Now that his balance has improved he can hack without a noseband again, though I do think he looks more handsome with one ;) plus I plan to do dressage with him in England so it will have to stay.
 
kc100 said:
But I think this is the point.....surely training and correct schooling should prevent the horse from opening up its mouth and/or the rider losing some control purely because they dont have a flash? I appreciate some horses open their mouths and some poke their tongue out, it is their thing - but I dont think I agree with using a flash or other noseband device to discourage the horse from opening its mouth, if the horse wants to do this in the first place then that is an indicator it is evading the contact, not accepting the bridle etc and needs further schooling or an evaluation of the bit being used (or perhaps physio to correct any tension in the poll or neck).

Understand completely for the nose net thing, but generally for competitions and schooling at home I am of the view that you should *ideally* be able to ride completely without a noseband (or at least flash/drop/crank) and not require a bit of leather to prevent your horse evading your aids.
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The two horses that have really needed the flash on have been the most schooled horses I've owned.... certainly nothing wrong with them, the bit, the bridle, their training or my riding.
 
Interesting, I also saw the link on TS's Facebook page.

I ride my horse in a flash, he likes to open his mouth, get his tongue over the bit, and flap it out the side of his mouth. However he does this even with the flash, so I've been considering taking it off and seeing if it makes any difference. I've also considered a drop noseband, and a grackle.

I don't want to strap his mouth shut, but equally don't think it's something that can be "trained" out of him, it's just his thing, he usually does it when he has to concentrate on something.
 
stilltrying said:
I'm currently waiting on a padded headpiece bridle with a drop noseband in cognac from FSS bridles (ebay). Will let you all know about the quality once it arrives but they do some seriously blingy bridles, not all with flashes. I had the option of getting a caverson attachment too, but thought i'd wait and see what the quality was like first.
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Ahh but it has the drop noseband which is a similar method for keeping the mouth shut to the flash.....need something completely cavesson (i.e. a plain straight noseband that doesnt have a crank fastening behind, just a simple old buckle to do it up) - someone make me a shiny patent black bridle with white padding and a cavesson noseband, I'll die and go to heaven!
 
acorn92x said:
Pony is a Highland and only 5 so just in a nice flat cavesson atm. I've had various people tell me that she would 'Go better' in a flash or drop and would look 'Nicer' with a grakle. When I approached about just how her way of going would be improved by a piece of leather strapping her mouth shut, I was met with a quiet mumble about how it will stop her occasionally sticking her tongue out when she stretches long and low. I was also told to 'Stick a martingale' on her as it will stop her from 'Poking her nose out'. Excuse my 5 year old who has been broken all of a few months for not being able to maintain a constant outline...

I, like many other people here, would rather work to improve these things without seeking the need of gadgets and devices. Yes it might take longer than simply strapping a piece of leather round her mouth or stopping her from putting her head up but I don't care. I don't want my girl strapped down and shut. She is 5 years old and to be honest, I'd rather not even be thinking about additional pieces of tack aside from the saddle and bridle until a bit later on in the game!

Interesting how people think they seem to know your horses needs better than you! :)
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Bloody well done to you - at 5 years old you are at a critical time where she needs to learn through correct schooling, not through a piece of leather! Keep going and ignore the idiots who just want the quick fix, you will be reaping the rewards soon enough and laughing at them when they attempt to do a dressage test without their martingales.....someone will soon have a poking nose giraffe pony on their hands!
 
*Before I say anything, I'm going to ask that I don't get any criticism, or "you shouldn't ride in that" lectures. It's MY horse, you've never ridden her so please don't tell me what's best for my horse.*

Mine has a selection of nosebands. A flash for schooling and SJ, she wears it because she can get strong without one, and when wearing one is a bit lighter on the forehand. She wears her grackle with a 3 ring gag for hunting & XC, as she opens her mouth out hunting and crosses her jaw, which gives me no control. She is happy in both nosebands. Most of our others are in cavassons or no noseband.

Each piece of tack they have on is because of their individual 'requirements'. I don't just put tack on a horse for 'looking nice', it does have a purpose.
 
I've always ridden in plain cavessons. Back in the dark ages a trainer told me that what I feel in my hands is a symptom of what's happening behind my legs, and that's stuck with me for decades!
 
j1ffy said:
Out of interest - those of you who say their horses hated the crank, why is this? I've always done them up as per a normal cavesson (2 fingers space) and it never occurred to me that some may still not like them.

Interestingly, my horse in Spain was a nightmare in a canter on a hack a few months ago - he'd not been hacking out in the area for long and struggled to balance so leaned on the bit with his mouth open and got faster. I put a cavesson on him and it made a huge difference, it was just enough to keep the mouth softer. Now that his balance has improved he can hack without a noseband again, though I do think he looks more handsome with one ;) plus I plan to do dressage with him in England so it will have to stay.
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From a bit of reading around on the crank - seems that because it is padded pushes the cheeks against the teeth (padding is all the way around the noseband, therefore able to push the soft bits of the cheeks against the teeth). That definitely could cause discomfort, even if done up loosely you wouldnt be able to avoid this unless the padding was only on the bony parts of the nose and not on the soft fleshy parts. I also think the padding does make people do it up tighter without really knowing it, because the padding seems to fool you into thinking its not as tight.

Ultimately a crank, even done up loosely, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw because it is exerting pressure on the nose via a leveraged buckle. A cavesson, cannot do that because there is no mechanical system there, it is just aesthetic.

Good point I've just read - as is the fashion for cranks at the moment (possibly the Charlotte effect with everyone, me included, wanting the white and patent bridle except hers is a double bridle); those that dont want a double bridle but want the 'look' of the patent and white means you can get a lot of bridles with cranks AND flashes! Saw tonnes of them when I was bridle shopping. Cant imagine how uncomfortable that must be for the horse...

Apparently (again going off what I've read as I'm no crank noseband expert) the 2 finger rule doesnt work with cranks either - because they are padded, the padding gives way far easier than a leather cavesson therefore it is a 'false' 2 fingers and your crank with naturally be tighter than what you'd have on a cavesson.

Another interesting point - a horses face is not even and will have bumpy/even areas. A leather cavesson correctly fitted will give an uneven pressure because of these uneven surfaces. Whereas a crank with padding (or any noseband with padding for that matter) fills in the gaps over softer structures but because the padding is consistent it makes the pressure consistent, hence it is tighter over the bony structures. So you will have pressure spots on certain areas of the horses face which you dont want, whereas the plain unpadded cavesson doesnt exert unwanted pressure on any particular area.
 
kc100 said:
Ultimately a crank, even done up loosely, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw because it is exerting pressure on the nose via a leveraged buckle.
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Eh? If the crank is loose, and you can easily fit 2 fingers in without deforming the padding, it cannot be forcing the horse's mouth shut any more than a cavesson (which may also be padded anyway...). That's just basic physics. Your final para about equal and unequal pressure doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either.
 
JennBags said:
Interesting, I also saw the link on TS's Facebook page.

I ride my horse in a flash, he likes to open his mouth, get his tongue over the bit, and flap it out the side of his mouth. However he does this even with the flash, so I've been considering taking it off and seeing if it makes any difference. I've also considered a drop noseband, and a grackle.

I don't want to strap his mouth shut, but equally don't think it's something that can be "trained" out of him, it's just his thing, he usually does it when he has to concentrate on something.
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I think this is almost another issue in itself - I used to ride a great big thing that even with a flash (hence why I ditched it in the end) he would still poke his tongue out when concentrating. I know in dressage a tongue poking out is a sin, and its a sign the horse is evading something or not accepting the bridle....but it does make me wonder is that really true in all cases? Yes it will be in some cases, but for some horses they do like to poke their tongue out when they are concentrating. For no other reason than that - they are light in the contact, uphill, in self carriage, working 'on the bit' or whatever term we want to call it....yet tongue is out. My trainer once got on my former horse thinking it must be something to do with my riding (fair comment, I'm no Carl Hester!) but it still happened even for him, and it happened with everyone that sat on that particular horse.

I do wonder if the dressage powers that be need a rethink about this tongue issue, I think a lot of people feel they have to ride in gadgets because of this problem when really their horse is not evading and has accepted the bridle. There must be other signs of not accepting the bridle other than a tongue poking out/open mouth....should a judge not be looking for multiple signs of evasion in which case fair enough mark the horse down for it - but if it pokes its tongue out consistently when it concentrates it seems harsh to be marked down for this.
 
JFTD said:
Eh? If the crank is loose, and you can easily fit 2 fingers in without deforming the padding, it cannot be forcing the horse's mouth shut any more than a cavesson (which may also be padded anyway...). That's just basic physics. Your final para about equal and unequal pressure doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either.
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I am just going off some reading I've done so may have worded it very badly haha.

The difference between the crank and cavesson (padding aside - you can indeed get padded cavessons) is the leveraged buckle which is based off a pulley system. I.e. the buckle & rings at each side of the crank (vs the one single buckle in the centre of the cavesson) means it can be pulled tighter using the ring at the opposite side to the buckle for leverage. Therefore it 100% can be used to fasten the noseband tighter than a cavesson, and hence shut the horses mouth.

The padding element comes in and would of course be applicable to the cavesson, in the sense that the padding is obviously softer than a leather strap (i.e. the plain cavesson). So when you put 2 fingers behind a cavesson, it will feel different to putting 2 fingers behind a crank with padding. The padded crank is likely to feel looser because the padding is softer when you apply a little pressure with your fingers. After all, that is the purpose of the padding - to be softer right? So chances are when your crank is done up with '2 fingers' space, its probably the equivalent of 1 finger under a cavesson.

That seems pretty logical to me, the padding is exactly that, soft padding, and is going to give way under your fingers more than a piece of plain leather.

To try and explain the uneven pressure a little better - a horse's face is uneven, run your hand over your horses face and nose and you'll feel slight lumps and bumps. Its not perfectly flat and symmetrical. So a non-padded noseband cant compensate for that, because it is a flat piece of leather it therefore will not sit flat on an uneven surface. So any pressure on the noseband is uneven, because the lumps and bumps are preventing the pressure from being distributed perfectly evenly across that surface. Whereas the padding on a padded noseband smooths over these lumps and bumps to an extent, of course it cant fill in any gaps but where there is a bump that protrudes slightly (we are talking the tiniest measurements here) there is going to be more pressure on that 'bump' because the padding is overcompensating for the gaps elsewhere. The loose un-padded cavesson cannot exert more or less pressure because it doesnt have any leverage from the fastening mechanism.

When I read it, it made sense to me, sorry if I'm explaining myself really badly - I'm sure we are talking tiny margins here but j1ffy was asking how a crank *might* be disliked by a horse, this just seems like it could be a tiny part to play in why a horse might not like it.
 
JFTD said:
How dull. I put loads of tat on just to look pretty. Sparkly browbands. Matchy matchy. Ridiculously expensive tack I really shouldn't buy. That sort of stuff ;)
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Oh yes, got to love a bit of matchy.....dressage would be boring without it! Waiting for new Eskadron currently, think bonkers needs a new winter outfit!
 
daffy44 said:
As with everything, different horses prefer different nosebands, some love a drop, some loathe it, it can just be trial and error. I use nosebands on my horses as they are dressage horses and have to compete in one, but its not tight whichever noseband i use. On the subject of different things i do play about with my grown up horses (not youngsters, i'm not brave enough!) and ride bareback, and headcollars etc. The first time i ride bareback i do have a bridle on, but if the horse is happy, then i'll do a bit bareback with a headcollar, its great fun on a comfy horse, my lovely advanced girl will happily piaffe bareback in a headcollar.
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Love that Daffy44, must be a lovely thing to see a piaffe in a headcollar minus saddle! You're not too far from me (another Warwickshire person), if you're ever up at Swallowfield (I run the weekend shows) please can you at least do a bit of that in the warm up, would love to see the other competitors faces!
 
Right folks I'm off now for the weekend so will not be partaking in any further discussion unfortunately but please do carry on without me, will check back in on Monday to see what you all got up to!
 
Hi kc100, then i must have met you! I do compete at Swallowfield quite a bit, i think i was last there in august with my 6yr old, i am planning on going again quite soon for some music, so i'll definately let you know, no promises as to the piaffe in a headcollar though!
 
I don't have a problem with cranks when they are fitted like a cavesson. My pony came to me in a grackle because "it looks pretty", which I replaced with a flash. I soon realised he doesn't actually need a flash.... and now he is in a loosely fitted crank as it came with his nice padded bridle. There does seem to be a gap in the market for a padded cavesson on a posh bridle.
 
Kc, I'm feeling too lazy to quote and divide that up but...

On point one, I completely agree that the pulley system can be used to over-tighten the noseband. However, if the noseband is not over-tightened, i.e. is easily able to fit 2 fingers in without pushing into the padding, I don't agree that it is any different from a cavesson, which may equally be overtightened through ignorance or by brute force (though not to the same degree) and if suitable adjustment to the fit isn't made to allow for any padding.

On the pressure point, I understand what you're trying to say, but that isn't really how physics works - you've actually contradicted yourself by saying padding evens pressure out, and then saying "where there is a bump that protrudes slightly (we are talking the tiniest measurements here) there is going to be more pressure on that 'bump' because the padding is overcompensating for the gaps elsewhere". That's the very definition of not evening out pressure ;)

I agree with many of your premises, I'm just not convinced by the extrapolation - you assume that the noseband is overtightened due to padding (this applies to both cavessons and cranks equally, because forcibly over-tightening a crank won't allow 2 fingers in anyway so you'd be deliberately not fitting it correctly). I completely agree that this over-tightening would cause issues and a horse to dislike it.

However, I don't agree that this means "Ultimately a crank, even done up loosely, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw" at all. If it's loose - and that's truly and correctly fitted (allowing for padding, as one should with any noseband) - it's not holding the jaw shut. It just isn't!


eta - I was riding early/baby piaffe bareback in a snaffle yesterday :cool3: Needs must and all that...
 
JFTD said:
How dull. I put loads of tat on just to look pretty. Sparkly browbands. Matchy matchy. Ridiculously expensive tack I really shouldn't buy. That sort of stuff ;)
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I do have sparkly browbands, ear bonnets and am very matchy matchy, I meant with nosebands, as I see people sometimes put certain types on "because they looks nice", which I don't do.
 
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