Not been turned out for 4 weeks...

[chocolategirl]

Horses not being turned out is a big welfare issue. And even if you can ride/lunge them every day this completely misses the point! Turnout is not simply for exercise, it's for their mental health and ability to carry out normal behaviour for their species. They need to be able to move around freely with their head low, roll, graze (or eat hay off the ground if no grass), maybe browse safe hedges/trees, interact with other horses. They need to have the choice to do this (or not do it IF this is their choice...but they need free choice!). This can be done in an all-weather area with hay provided. Being on the lunge or being ridden is not the same as being turned out and may provide exercise but none of the mental health benefits of turnout. Fields can be mended, your horse's mental and emotional health not so much. There's no justification for lack of turnout. "The fields will be trashed/it will cost money to re-seed it/he'll get mud fever out there" might all be true, but can be managed and dealt with in a way depriving horses of their basic needs just can't. If you can't meet your horse's welfare needs you need to face into that and do something about it. I'm sure this post will make lots of people very cross but deep down they know it's true. I could weep at the state of our winter field, it's never looked like this and will cost a lot of time and money to put right in the Spring, but the thought of having a tidy field and horses deprived of the opportunity to exhibit their natural behaviours is not an option.

Could have written this myself!!

 

[southerncomfort]

I keep two thirds of my land for winter use.

It means I only have about an acre and a half for summer split in to two paddocks, but that is honestly plenty for two natives. I rest and rotate the 2 paddocks so that we don't run out of grass but neither is it left to get too long.

The winter land is also split in to two paddocks. The land is wet and very muddy around the gateways etc currently but the ponies don't mind and I know it will recover. We've pretty much run out of grass now so I'm supplementing with hay and they come in at night during the worst of the weather.

Last year the winter land was in a terrible state by spring but my farmer friend promised I'd need do nothing more than harrow it. He came and harrowed it all for me and by Autumn the grass was up to my knees.

Ok, so my example is on a very small scale but it shows that with forward planning, careful division of the land between summer and winter paddocks, and good maintenance, not over stocking etc, it is possible to ensure that horses get a good amount of turnout.

 

[Goldenstar]

I keep two thirds of my land for winter use.

It means I only have about an acre and a half for summer split in to two paddocks, but that is honestly plenty for two natives. I rest and rotate the 2 paddocks so that we don't run out of grass but neither is it left to get too long.

The winter land is also split in to two paddocks. The land is wet and very muddy around the gateways etc currently but the ponies don't mind and I know it will recover. We've pretty much run out of grass now so I'm supplementing with hay and they come in at night during the worst of the weather.

Last year the winter land was in a terrible state by spring but my farmer friend promised I'd need do nothing more than harrow it. He came and harrowed it all for me and by Autumn the grass was up to my knees.

Ok, so my example is on a very small scale but it shows that with forward planning, careful division of the land between summer and winter paddocks, and good maintenance, not over stocking etc, it is possible to ensure that horses get a good amount of turnout.

it’s plenty if your pony is in work but it’s not if they are not .

 

[Polygon]

it’s plenty if your pony is in work but it’s not if they are not .

If they are not in work they need less grass, not more? You can always give hay in summer if you don't have much grazing (especially with natives, most are overweight on UK paddocks, even bare ones!). Yes, hay costs money but you have to work with the grazing you've got!

 

[Leo Walker]

I am sure they are making money, the point is that the livery set up would not have made money without another income stream, at least for the first few years, owning the property so no rent to pay, machinery to make the hay/ straw already there and very likely some EU diversification money to put in the infrastructure to allow for real growth in a way most equine only yards cannot so charging £110 per month for basic DIY is not realistic for most places when the competition is not a level playing field.

I don't have an issue with yards making a profit, far from it, but do know that most cannot make a living from DIY alone and that £25 per week is not a realistic price, topping up that £25 by restricting turnout times so staff need to be used by most clients is taking it for many to £35 per week maybe more depending on what they charge for services which is more of a realistic price.

The property is rented., or was for a very long time. 30yrs ago when it was just one yard there was still one person making a living solely from the yard and doing services part time.

I am sick to death of hearing yards arent making any money. They sure as hell arent doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They make the hay and straw and could make the same money on it selling it, or could buy it in in huge quantities at a cheaper rate if they didnt. Using staff means staff need paying.

None of that changes the fact that livery is £110 a month.

They charge the same rate if not slightly more than other yards in the area. I dont live in that area and havent for decades so dont know the ins and outs of every yard. I do know its considered to be one of the more expensive yards in the area.

I pay less than that where I am in an area of the country where house prices are double or sometimes triple what they are in that area.

The money that is made from my yard is far more than the sheep that the owner keeps on the rest of the land, and takes far less work. I know because I was specifically asking him about it last week.

I cant understand why anyone would expect to make huge amounts of money from DIY anyway. Most people dont rent property and expect to make their living from that. Clearly there are economies of scale, and varying degrees of success along with differing business models. But the vast majority of people arent running yards as some sort of charity for horse owners, despite what is said on here all the time.

 

[Merrymoles]

I am very lucky with the yard I am on - we have all-year turnout of 12 hours in the winter and 24/7 in the summer, with the fields being switched in late spring so the hay can grow on the winter fields. Yes it is boggy, especially round the gateways, but it is a huge benefit both to my horse, who currently can't be ridden, and his fieldmate who is aging and stiffens up quickly if not moving around.

However, restricted turnout is nothing new. Forty years ago I used to be paid to exercise - I got very good at ride one and lead two, although the roads were a lot quieter then.

I think the main issue is when there are not facilities for owners to do the necessary amount of exercise with their horse. I would certainly struggle in the depths of winter when there is no light and I would need to fit it around working full time and doing all the necessary chores, looking after the house and cooking because my OH is disabled, and exercising the dog. If, on top of that, I had to queue to use a school, I would quickly die of exhaustion!

 

[Queenbee]

I would definitely be looking for other yards, there is always a little gem of a yard that few people know about. I had similar issues this year with ben, he has always been out every day but the YM was a tool and insisted they all be in. The owner of the yard kindly opened up a potatoe field for Ben and another horse but the ym made our lives hell because we weren't keeping the boys in. Ben hated all the mud and started to refuse to leave his stable, I have since moved him to a small private yard where he is out nearly every day for anything from 2-8 hrs, it makes such a difference to his happiness and as a result mine

 

[Leandy]

Stabling 24/7 is absolutely not new! It is, and always has been, very common for horses in work! I think that what has become much more common is lack of traditional horsesense and understanding as to how much work a horse needs and indeed is capable of. No old school groom would have regarded a 30 minute amble round the block as sufficient exercise, yet many leisure horse owners do just this a few times a week as the norm. It is when these horses are confined to stables due to lack of turn out for whatever reason that things go awry. The horses get bored, stiff, fresh and stressed, and the owners fail to understand the extent of the insufficiency of the exercise they are providing and wonder why their animals have become dangerous to ride, are then wary of exercising and a downward spiral starts. Short days, with dark evenings and mornings further restrict the amount to which the leisue owner can exercise in the winter even if they see the need. Also, in days gone by youngstock and oldies would be turned out 24/7. Noone would think keeping non-working horses stabled would make any sense at all. I agree that owners need to understand their responsibility in this and make sufficient provision for the needs of their horse.

 

[Translationsneeded]

None of my fields have been closed this winter and yes, they are trashed. Sometimes my liveries choose not to turn out but that’s up to them. My horses go out everyday.
The fields will recover. It will probably cost a bit more this year in maintenance.

 

[pastit]

My fields run with water in the winter - we only have field turnout until early December, after that, I fence in the car park, put in three old baths at various places filled with hay and turn them out there. If it rains solidly all day, they come in at lunchtime, and then after work, they go for another wander so I can tidy the boxes before bed. The car park is not huge but at least the ground is solid and they are ridden & exercised at least 5 days a week. The worst time is now, when they can smell the grass growing and can't go on the fields. Not long to go, hopefully!

 

[chocolategirl]

The property is rented., or was for a very long time. 30yrs ago when it was just one yard there was still one person making a living solely from the yard and doing services part time.

I am sick to death of hearing yards arent making any money. They sure as hell arent doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They make the hay and straw and could make the same money on it selling it, or could buy it in in huge quantities at a cheaper rate if they didnt. Using staff means staff need paying.

None of that changes the fact that livery is £110 a month.

They charge the same rate if not slightly more than other yards in the area. I dont live in that area and havent for decades so dont know the ins and outs of every yard. I do know its considered to be one of the more expensive yards in the area.

I pay less than that where I am in an area of the country where house prices are double or sometimes triple what they are in that area.

The money that is made from my yard is far more than the sheep that the owner keeps on the rest of the land, and takes far less work. I know because I was specifically asking him about it last week.

I cant understand why anyone would expect to make huge amounts of money from DIY anyway. Most people dont rent property and expect to make their living from that. Clearly there are economies of scale, and varying degrees of success along with differing business models. But the vast majority of people arent running yards as some sort of charity for horse owners, despite what is said on here all the time.

Wow? I gather you’ve run your own yard in order to be able to make such summations? I don’t know what yours or others situations are, but I can tell you for sure with my hand on my heart, if I had to charge everything to my livery business that I spend money on, I would definitely be running at a massive loss. I’m lucky that we run a farm business alongside, so I can ‘borrow’ a lot of materials, man hours etc etc etc, from that business to benefit my livery. Livery is the kind of business that most people I know, run as a hobby or second income sideline? once you’re in it, it’s kinda hard not to be in it I find? Some of my clients have been with me for years, so I feel some sort of weird obligation to keep going for theirs and their horses sake, even though I’ve wanted to pack in years ago ? I just simply don’t enjoy it anymore and find people’s expectations unrealistic for the most part? if it wasn’t for my daughters interest in horses, I probably wouldn’t have kept going this long I guess, who knows? Btw, the majority of yards I would doubt, are in a position to make their own forage and bedding so have to buy in and it ain’t cheap! For those who rent their yard, what if they aren’t always full? They will still most likely have to pay the same every month regardless. Everyone’s situation will be different, so for you to make such a sweeping generalisation, imo, is grossly unfair ?

 

[Goldenstar]

If they are not in work they need less grass, not more? You can always give hay in summer if you don't have much grazing (especially with natives, most are overweight on UK paddocks, even bare ones!). Yes, hay costs money but you have to work with the grazing you've got!

it’s exercise that they are missing not food .

 

[Winters100]

I just simply don’t enjoy it anymore and find people’s expectations unrealistic for the most part? r ?

I agree that I see totally unrealistic expectations from owners on our yard. Truthfully if I was the owner I would find it very stressful. From what I see there seems to be an expectation that things will go smoothly all the time - and that if not it is ok to complain loudly about it or to call the owner at any time of day or night. Just last week we had a situation that a horse was slightly lame, so was not turned out. In this case on our yard the horse is kept in their box while the owner is contacted for a decision. A new groom made a mistake and informed the trainer rather than the owner, and apparently this was the end of the world. The owner of the horse told me today that she is "leaving the yard" because of the incident, but when I asked what was the big problem, as surely the trainer informed her, so no harm done, she told me that yes they had, but that it was not the point. In the end I just told her that I thought she should leave and find somewhere that meets her expectations. To me this would have not been an issue at all, sure it would be better practice to inform the owner first, but the message got through, and it was a slightly lame horse not a broken leg!

 

[Annagain]

This is why I'm at the yard I'm at. Our horses get out every day (usually 6.30am - 6.30pm) no matter what the weather's doing. YO has far fewer horses than most livery yards with the same amount of land - we have 5 on 7 acres of good grass for the winter (usually from the end nov until the hay is cut). It's great from Nov - Jan and by mid April/early May it's starting to become almost a bit too good. It's not expensive but it is always full. With two oldies and a full time job I couldn't exercise them every day even if I wanted to - they can't go in the school more than once a week due to are related lameness issues and our roads are too busy to hack out in the dark. There are places with better facilities and trainers on site but I wouldn't sacrifice their turnout for any of that (which they can't really use now anyway - but even when they could, I wouldn't have). I'm in an area that's been hit quite badly with flooding too but the ground is starting to recover already. I know I'm lucky but it's also my number 1 consideration so I would sacrifice anything else for that.

I agree with be positive, as much as I love the boys being out 24/7 in the summer - for them rather than for me, they never a get a bit stiff in summer - I'd gladly sacrifice 24/7 summer turnout for daily winter turnout. We don't need to and it wouldn't actually work on our yard as the hay fields become our summer grazing once the hay's been cut so they wouldn't be available in the winter anyway but I'm sure there are plenty of places where it would - and would perhaps even be better for the horses.

 

[ester]

it’s exercise that they are missing not food .

Tracks

 

[Goldenstar]

Now tracks are a great thing if your land can take them .
on wet land they would quickly become an appalling mess .

 

[annunziata]

It isn’t fair at all! It makes me so angry that’s this seems to have become the norm up and down the country? imprisoning horses for days and weeks on end is a welfare issue, and for the life of me I can’t understand those who claim to be animal lovers, thinking this is acceptable? I’ve run my livery for 25 years, and I can honestly say our horses have NEVER spent a day in their stable unless on veterinary advice, even then, we have a small turnout pen we use. I’m sorry for your situation OP, it’s a big part of the reason there are so many badly behaved horses in the world, and my only advice is to move ASAP. This winter has been exceptionally wet yes, but trust me, if they’re keeping in now, they’ll do this every winter ?

my horses have not been out regularly since Oct we are on clay and our land drains blew with all the water. I however have a huge yard area and a gravel track they are all turned out on daily so they socialise and can get up to mischief they just cant really roll properly or gallop about (but they do try both) unfortunately until it dries out I am a bit under it as the fields are soo wet. We only keep in at my yard when the gateways get deep mud as we much rather turn out 24/7 as soon as we can and have some grass. This is the 1st winter in years that it has been that wet though

 

[Blazingsaddles]

24/7 turnout on my yard. Wouldn’t have it any other way. I fully appreciate it. Just to add, the only exercise a horse gets when it’s kept in daily is work? How awful. What about letting a horse be horse, behave like a horse and mentally relax? It’s very disappointing some people are still keeping their horses like a caged animal and see nothing wrong with it.

 

[ester]

Now tracks are a great thing if your land can take them .
on wet land they would quickly become an appalling mess .

The discussion was about more movement for grazing-restricted horses not in work in summer.
We are on clay on the somerset levels, it gets pretty wet!, a summer track on a similar amount of land as mentioned for 2 has never been a problem and superb for horses out of work.

 

[Caol Ila]

I moved my horse from a yard with eight hours of turnout, but where she was standing and often fencewalking in knee-deep mud, to a yard that seemed perfect -- 12 hours per day of winter turnout on lovely, dry hardstanding paddocks with free access to hay. What's not to like? Well, according to my horse, everything. As many of you know, she registered her objections after three days by turning the fencewalking up to 11, and we left in a hurry, eventually ending up at a yard where -- following the February storms anyway -- the horses are only being turned out a few times per week. Not ideal. But my horse has been happy and relaxed ever since her first day on this yard, not pacing nor showing any signs of stress when in or out, and she is far sounder than when she was fencewalking in knee deep mud.

Would I prefer more turnout? Absolutely. But a happy horse who isn't boxwaking nor fencewalking is a win. Beggars and choosers and all that. With this horse, you have to forget what you think you know and go with what works.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm in East Devon, on the clay!

I have my own yard (at home) and one DIY livery.

Where livery turns hers out, the field was professionally drained a few years back and hardcore put down in the gateways; best money we ever spent that was, as her field seems to have held up well and she's had everyday turnout for hers.

Meanwhile, across the road, my two are out in a swamp! They're hating it, both cobs and they're desperately needing a chance to have a good hoon around, a f@rt and a buck, but they can't! We're on the side of a hill here and there's a lot of moisture and springs coming off the hill. ]

I do have about a quarter of an acre (probably less) of hard standing where they can stand and chomp hay, but they've been getting really mega-bored of that.

Don't want to get everyone too excited but I think there's a dryer forecast for next week........... ??

 

[Goldenstar]

I'm in East Devon, on the clay!

I have my own yard (at home) and one DIY livery.

Where livery turns hers out, the field was professionally drained a few years back and hardcore put down in the gateways; best money we ever spent that was, as her field seems to have held up well and she's had everyday turnout for hers.

Meanwhile, across the road, my two are out in a swamp! They're hating it, both cobs and they're desperately needing a chance to have a good hoon around, a f@rt and a buck, but they can't! We're on the side of a hill here and there's a lot of moisture and springs coming off the hill. ]

I do have about a quarter of an acre (probably less) of hard standing where they can stand and chomp hay, but they've been getting really mega-bored of that.

Don't want to get everyone too excited but I think there's a dryer forecast for next week........... ??

get rid of the livery make your horses happy.

 

[ihatework]

get rid of the livery make your horses happy.

This! Why would you improve your grazing only to give it to a livery leaving your horses in a bog?? You are obviously a far nicer person than I am!