Not feeding grass

[Marigold4]

I've recently come across a couple of knowledgeable people whose horses are not laminitic or overweight but who do not ever get grass. They are kept in pens and fed hay/haylage. They have grazing but horses do not go on the grass - ever. The belief seems to be that grass is fundamentally bad for horses and causes all sorts of other issues beyond weight and laminitis. Is grass really the "enemy"? Anyone else do this?

 

[Trouper]

No. But in all walks of life you come across people who seem to think that their view of things is better than millenia of evolution.

 

[scats]

A friends laminitic can’t ever go on grass. Everytime she does, she has another bout of lami. They find it far easier to manage her out in a dry lot with ad lib soaked hay.

Grass isn’t the enemy, but the small, rich fields of livery yards (often of rye grass) where movement isn’t required to find food, tips many horses into obesity and/or compromises them metabolically.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Hm. This could be me under a certain scenario. My horse is on grass because he's in work. If he was not in work, he wouldn't be on grass. He would get too fat. So I would then put him in a sparse or dry lot with hay or haylage. He would not look fat or laminitic. Someone could wonder why he wasn't on grass.

However, once they talked to me about it, then they'd know. I don't think grass in itself is evil.

 

[J&S]

My ponies (small horses) get very little grass. One would get too fat, though not laminitic thank fully, and the other gets colic if she has a few blades too much.

 

[meleeka]

Mine are on a fairly sparse field. If they had ‘proper’ grass, at least two of them would be obese/laminitis. They are retired so I don’t have the option to exercise them to keep them trim. A sparse field is different to grass free though. They have plenty of things to forage on and I wouldn’t be comfortable keeping them in a small pen with nothing but hay.

I suppose I’m fortunate in some ways. When everyone else is worrying about lack of grass, or the ground getting too wet to recover, I’m looking forward to not having to worry. It took me around 10 years to ruin my highly fertilised lush grazing, but I got there in the end ?

 

[cauda equina]

I have one (well 2, he has a dedicated companion) that doesn't get any grass other than what I pick for him because he's so laminitis-prone
I wouldn't consider it otherwise. I've got plenty of grass, good old stalky stuff, and buying haylage and filling nets all year round is a massive PITA

 

[Gloi]

Maybe the reason they aren't overweight or laminitic is because their intake is being strictly controlled.

 

[Widgeon]

Grass isn’t the enemy, but the small, rich fields of livery yards (often of rye grass) where movement isn’t required to find food, tips many horses into obesity and/or compromises them metabolically.

Yeah this - if livery yard rich grass is all that's available to you, then maybe no grass is better, even for a non-laminintic. I have a fatty and would love to have a dry lot tbh - or ideally a massive scrubby field, preferably on a hill.

 

[cauda equina]

My dream is to find an agronomist who can advise on sustainably de-improving grazing

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I think if you've had a few bad experiences (laminitis, grass sickness, colic on wet grass, field injuries) it's easy to get very controlling- sometimes the anxiety is just too much.

My personal opinion is that most horses are happiest and healthiest in a good sized field, with a good sized herd, on grass. But I have only 2 ponies, and at the moment they're on a bare earth strip with soaked hay ?‍

 

[windand rain]

I am totally the opposite my ponies live on managed grass 24/7 365 days a year. I avoid feeding hay or haylage at all costs unless the weather dictates otherwise. I cannot get my head round feeding hay at 96% nutrient over grass at 5% nutrient and 95% water. I expect them to lose a lot of weight over winter and gain it in the Spring and summer. I have all British Mountain and Moorland ponies only 1 has had laminitis when some well meaning but stupid person let him into a hay field off his carefully manage track system. He is now classed as laminitic and he too is out 24/7 on grass 365 days a year. Biggest problem with risks of laminitis is hay being fed ad lib in winter so the ponies and horses never lose weight but get fatter and fatter until they get IR so although you say the horses not out grazing are not getting grass they are getting far more grass than mine do. For fibre mine get clean oat straw to nibble

 

[Marigold4]

I think if you've had a few bad experiences (laminitis, grass sickness, colic on wet grass, field injuries) it's easy to get very controlling- sometimes the anxiety is just too much.

My personal opinion is that most horses are happiest and healthiest in a good sized field, with a good sized herd, on grass. But I have only 2 ponies, and at the moment they're on a bare earth strip with soaked hay ?‍

I think I've may be just been very lucky. In 20 years I've not had any laminitis or grass related colic. (Touches wood). I think my horses would be a bit miserable if they couldn't trot around and play and coose where to graze. Surely a small yard or pen means they get less exercise?

 

[cauda equina]

I think soil type has a lot to do with it too
I look at horses on grazing on poor, sandy soil and think mine would be fine on that, but where I am it's just too loamy and fertile for knife-edge laminitics

 

[Lipglosspukka]

Just me that thinks it's absolutely bonkers then ? I get it with a lami pony or whatever, but for normal horses, really?

Don't be mean. Give Dr Green.

 

[I'm Dun]

Grass really isnt good for horses for lots of reasons. Horses are not designed to live on lush green pastures and it does cause all sorts of problems. They are grazers and browsers designed to be constantly moving and eating a wide selection of grasses etc.

There are ways of mitigating risk. Mine live on a track. I grow my biggest paddock and allow it to become standing hay. Its mainly old meadow grass. I overseed and am hoping to eradicate the rye and clover over time without spraying. This makes standing hay and is strip grazed over winter.

My track isnt surfaced so there is access to some grass on it. There diet is 60% hay and 40% grass/trees/hedges. I am very lucky to have lots of hedges and edible trees.

I have an acre that I ride in. Its got some meadow grasses but an awful lot of rye and clover. My TB is allowed in there from about now for an absolute maximum of 6 hours but more often 3. No horses go in there when the grass is flushing. Again i will keep overseeding and hoping to improve it so there is more access to it. Nothing on earth would persuade me to chuck them all out there 24/7.

Mine are all barefoot and I can see a difference in their feet if they have access to the wrong sort of grass or too much of it. I do however supplement vitamin e, and ensure they have a good source of amino acids, as those things can be missing in a diet thats limited. I also supplement copper/zinc/magnesium based balancer to mitigate the grass and hay deficiencies.

I appreciate I am very lucky to have my own place and be able to do this. But I've managed scaled down similar sort of set ups on livery.

 

[I'm Dun]

My dream is to find an agronomist who can advise on sustainably de-improving grazing

Theres lots of info out there. I am doing mine by overseeding with old meadow grass species, fertlising with well rotted manure and constantly cutting down docks and nettles. Its waist high with meadow grasses in parts now, but I reckon it will take a couple of years to get it right. It was pretty horse sick when I took it on, and I'm not sure if that made it easier or harder. Spraying would speed things up, but I'm trying to avoid this. I think there are some areas that will just end up nuked with species specific spray in the end, but it will be the edges and yard area rather than the grazing areas.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Sometimes no or little grass is the only option. My two are only on grass for a few hours every other day during growing season because the WB can’t tolerate it due to EMS and the Connie gets laminitis. They are stabled, ridden, have a sand turnout pen, get well soaked hay and low sugar/starch feed to carry supplements. I would love to find a track livery for them both but there’s nothing in my area and as the yard is perfect in every other way and I love it I stay and work harder in summer than I do winter.

In an ideal world they would be out on acres of scrub searching and moving constantly looking for food and water but it’s a a farm with fields of rye grass so like most people I manage them in the best way possible within the constraints I have have to keep them healthy and happy.

 

[Marigold4]

Sometimes no or little grass is the only option. My two are only on grass for a few hours every other day during growing season because the WB can’t tolerate it due to EMS and the Connie gets laminitis. They are stabled, ridden, have a sand turnout pen, get well soaked hay and low sugar/starch feed to carry supplements. I would love to find a track livery for them both but there’s nothing in my area and as the yard is perfect in every other way and I love it I stay and work harder in summer than I do winter.

In an ideal world they would be out on acres of scrub searching and moving constantly looking for food and water but it’s a a farm with fields of rye grass so like most people I manage them in the best way possible within the constraints I have have to keep them healthy and happy.

Fair enough - but what if your horse didn't have laminitis and had never had laminitis? Would you still keep them off grass 24/7?

 

[Marigold4]

I have one (well 2, he has a dedicated companion) that doesn't get any grass other than what I pick for him because he's so laminitis-prone
I wouldn't consider it otherwise. I've got plenty of grass, good old stalky stuff, and buying haylage and filling nets all year round is a massive PITA

I agree. I think I would give up horses if I had to fill, soak and hang haynets all year round. And v expensive when you already have green stuff out there for "free".

 

[Marigold4]

If these horses are in a small pen, should they be getting the same amount of exercise daily as a horse stabled 24/7?

 

[Marigold4]

Maybe the reason they aren't overweight or laminitic is because their intake is being strictly controlled.

Maybe that's right. Maybe I should give up my field and just keep mine in my wood chip area on hay. Would save a lot of field maintenanceand take away the risks - but would they be happy?

 

[zandp]

Depends on the grass really, my Cushings/EMS horse did surprisingly well when we moved to a new yard who hadn't actually built the stables they promised they would have done and had to be out 24/7 on waist high, mixed meadow, unfertilised grazing. She really suffers when on grazing with any rye grass - including a lami attack while the field was tracked to reduce access; the other one is horrible when lots of clover (either colour) is present.

Set up a track and then they can still move.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

No I wouldn’t keep them off it, if it was meadow grass and they were living out 24/7, unrugged in winter to allow for natural fat reduction and then on a track in summer I would be happy for them to be out. I much prefer keeping them in a natural setting. Summer is hard work, I love winter ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

My dream is to find an agronomist who can advise on sustainably de-improving grazing

There's quite a bit posted on the Equi Biome Facebook group on increasing diversity in grazing and thus assisting a healthy gut biome. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[MyBoyChe]

Interesting thread. Im on DIY and we each manage our own bit of field, fence it etc. I let my boys wreck it in winter (they are allowed to stay out so do so apart from the very wettest weather as our clay just wont stand up to 24/7 t/o) That way it takes longer to recover in spring, the gateways grow back sparse and weedy and by leaving them out as much as possible the grass doesnt grow back too quickly. I do strip graze if I have to but touch wood, this year all 3 ponies have been able to stay out all summer so far. One has Cushings and is on Prascend, he always follows into a field after the biggest lad who can tolerate the most grass has eaten it down and is given a top up of soaked hay. My bit of field has quite a lot of old stalky grass on it and lots of natural hedgerow for them to browse in, we never reseed or fertilise anything and we never save summer or winter paddocks so their lifestyle is as natural as possible. I do think a lot of the issue is thinking that ponies in particular, need access to good grazing 24/7, 365 days a year. They absolutely dont and they definitely dont need it to be placed in a nice small square right under their nose!!

 

[SEL]

There isn't a single horse on our yard that isn't restricted to some extent due to the richness of the grazing. Its unfertilized meadow but if you didn't restrict then the best you could hope for is a fat horse.

My 3 are heavily restricted (field track) and only one has shown EMS type symptoms. They are all barefoot and I can track the grass flush by the state of their hooves. I will turn the 2 non EMS types out on the centre but maximum 3 hours. Yes its more of a cost in hay, but from a welfare perspective that's unavoidable.

 

[cauda equina]

There's quite a bit posted on the Equi Biome Facebook group on increasing diversity in grazing and thus assisting a healthy gut biome. It makes a lot of sense.

Interesting stuff, thank you!

 

[I'm Dun]

Fair enough - but what if your horse didn't have laminitis and had never had laminitis? Would you still keep them off grass 24/7?

Mine havent had laminitis, but I dont want them to either, hence the management thats in place. Its not just lammi though, the TB will colic if turfed out onto rich grass, their feet suffer as well, some of them end up being ridiculous whe stuffed with lush grass.

People often recoil in horror that I feed hay all year round, but it works out roughly the same as turfed out all summer and in all winter. And from a work perspective it definitely feels easy to manage them this way, it just spreads the work throughout the year instead of weighting it towards winter.

I will say that I dont soak hay and just absolutely wouldnt unless it was a last resort. Soaking hay is utterly miserable!

 

[vanrim]

Yes 3 of mine can’t have any grass as they get gastric ulcers. I have tried and tried over the years but grass just makes them ill. They are in a grass free track with hay.