not saying a thing.....

Pearlsasinger said:
I have had a vet tell me that she would not advise colic surgery for a large Draft horse. I wouldn't have agreed to it if she had but fortunately the horse pulled through at home with the vet's treatment.
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When the old pony here colicked 18 months ago the vet said the exact same thing to me, that he was not a candidate for surgery so if the drugs didn't work it would be the end for him. Fortunately he too recovered and is still here now.
 
Actuall
Exasperated said:
If the vet in clinical attendance had advised euthanasia, it would be a brave insurance claims manager told that vet they were wrong. Possibly a compulsory second opinion with exceptionally valuable horses?
The issue is rather that for (whatever) reasons, attending vets are increasingly less likely to advise euthanasia in the first instance; worse, they are too often reluctant to advise this even as situations deteriorate. Clearly this has financial implications, but welfare considerations should be paramount, and vets can certainly override pushy or unrealistic owners when welfare dictates: prevention of suffering - but increasingly rare that they do.
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Actually the beva guidelines for what conditions euthanasia of insured horses has always been been both strict and limited. They are currently being updated.
 
ester said:
Actuall

Actually the beva guidelines for what conditions euthanasia of insured horses has always been been both strict and limited. They are currently being updated.
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It will be interesting if the beva update states that an attending vet (or two, dependent on insurance contract) who states the welfare situation demands euthanasia, is to be disregarded.
That is the bottom line, one would always hope and expect that professionals will strictly regulate their behaviours, should go with the territory.
 
ester said:
Actuall

Actually the beva guidelines for what conditions euthanasia of insured horses has always been been both strict and limited. They are currently being updated.
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It is. I claimed for death and while they paid out I had to provide all the BEVA paperwork from my vet to prove that euthanasia was essentially the only option.
 
Exasperated said:
If the vet in clinical attendance had advised euthanasia, it would be a brave insurance claims manager told that vet they were wrong. Possibly a compulsory second opinion with exceptionally valuable horses?
The issue is rather that for (whatever) reasons, attending vets are increasingly less likely to advise euthanasia in the first instance; worse, they are too often reluctant to advise this even as situations deteriorate. Clearly this has financial implications, but welfare considerations should be paramount, and vets can certainly override pushy or unrealistic owners when welfare dictates: prevention of suffering - but increasingly rare that they do.
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It’s a whole can of worms though as every vets ‘personal’ stance on euthanasia is very different to another’s.

I know one vet who advised a friend PTS her horse as there was no known treatment for the lameness she was suffering with and chances of the horse coming fully sound were slim. Friend chose to chuck horse in a field for 6 months and rehab barefoot as a last-chance saloon and horse came fully sound. A small miracle for sure and vet wasn’t right or wrong, just giving the facts about the the diagnosis at the time.

On the other end of the scale there’s a vet that publicises quite openly on social media that they don’t believe in euthanising elderly horses unless all treatments have been tried, regardless of how costly or invasive they are or how lengthy the recovery. Personally that wouldn’t be my own stance as an owner so if they were my vet we’d be in conflict.

I just think vets having/sharing a strong personal opinion on euthanasia either way is very tricky ground.
 
I still don’t think the above goes far enough in considering whether the horse is able to return to living a “normal” life within a reasonable timeline / still don’t think there’s a lot of clear guidance for cases of chronic lameness that aren’t so bad they’re nearly unable to move.

IMO this means being able to live socially (ie turnout in some form) with other horses, move comfortably in all paces (possibly with pain relief to allow this in the case of arthritis) without said movement causing lameness and being able to eat enough to maintain weight (even if this has to be in mash form).

Obviously short periods of box rest or lameness during recovery is expected but I feel that if a horse is only field sound with a lot of micromanagement to the point it’s affecting QOL (eg only sound if turned out alone in a postage stamp so can’t run around and only if the ground is perfect and this is the way it has to be forever) then that’s a potential welfare issue & a perfectly acceptable reason to euthanise.
 
I’m still pretty bruised 2 years on after a vet tried to get me first to trial a course of steroids on my uninsured late 13yo homebred after I’d just witnessed her having a protracted and very unpleasant seizure. This was on top of a partially witnessed previous incident recorded on cctv in which had resulted in her careering blindly through a line of fencing which she couldn’t see.

Luckily young vet who did attend was much more pragmatic and did the deed on the same day. She also reckoned from the symptoms and the form of the seizure that it was most likely a frontal lobe tumour. So no cure.

I do keep my retirees on as managed happy pasture ornaments, but I have a very definite red line and seizures are most definitely the wrong side of that line.

I’m pretty secure in my own skin about doing the right thing by my animals, but that really shook me up.
 
Boulty said:
I still don’t think the above goes far enough in considering whether the horse is able to return to living a “normal” life within a reasonable timeline / still don’t think there’s a lot of clear guidance for cases of chronic lameness that aren’t so bad they’re nearly unable to move.

IMO this means being able to live socially (ie turnout in some form) with other horses, move comfortably in all paces (possibly with pain relief to allow this in the case of arthritis) without said movement causing lameness and being able to eat enough to maintain weight (even if this has to be in mash form).

Obviously short periods of box rest or lameness during recovery is expected but I feel that if a horse is only field sound with a lot of micromanagement to the point it’s affecting QOL (eg only sound if turned out alone in a postage stamp so can’t run around and only if the ground is perfect and this is the way it has to be forever) then that’s a potential welfare issue & a perfectly acceptable reason to euthanise.
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The insurance guidelines are pretty unforgiving, for most chronic conditions if you were pursuing a claim you’d be better off going for LOU and then choosing to PTS yourself later. With colic you if you don’t opt for surgery you basically have no hope of claiming for anything.

It’s why I find it quite farcical when people claim high-value competition horses are PTS as their insured value is more than they’re worth alive, you won’t get a penny under most circumstances.

For general QOL decisions unfortunately I think owners have to take ultimate responsibility. Vets can advise, but the onus shouldn’t be on the vet to have to make the call other than to give owners the hard facts about what options are available and long term prognosis. And no, I don’t think owners always make the right decision, but I don’t believe the blame for that should lie at the vets door.
 
I know someone who put her 2 yr old filly through a 45 minute trailer ride to the vet hospital because there was a 1% chance that colic surgery would be successful and the insurance company insisted. Needless to say the poor horse didn't recover. But the owner got the insurance payment.
I know it can be very difficult to make decisions in the moment but this is one reason why we don't insure.
 
I gave up insuring when a mare with congestive heart disease was not deemed eligible to be pts and insurance claimed. The vet said that in another 5-7 days she would meet the criteria, once she could no longer get to her feet and eat. There was no way I would let her get as far as that, she was seriously unhappy as she was.
 
Tiddlypom said:
I’m still pretty bruised 2 years on after a vet tried to get me first to trial a course of steroids on my uninsured late 13yo homebred after I’d just witnessed her having a protracted and very unpleasant seizure. This was on top of a partially witnessed previous incident recorded on cctv in which had resulted in her careering blindly through a line of fencing which she couldn’t see.

Luckily young vet who did attend was much more pragmatic and did the deed on the same day. She also reckoned from the symptoms and the form of the seizure that it was most likely a frontal lobe tumour. So no cure.

I do keep my retirees on as managed happy pasture ornaments, but I have a very definite red line and seizures are most definitely the wrong side of that line.

I’m pretty secure in my own skin about doing the right thing by my animals, but that really shook me up.
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This is awful, it's not just a consideration of what's best for the horse but also in not putting people at unnecessary risk if they have to handle her or if she went through a fence out onto the road. You'd never be able to relax wondering when the next one would happen.
 
Gosh this thread is making me so, so glad I do not insure; a lot of it is because there'd be so many exclusions on mine and in the eyes of the horse market they have no real value. However it seems it's also wiser to simply put money aside so you can have full autonomy over the treatments you use on your own animal. I know I've wondered about insuring before but fundamentally I'm really glad it's not an extra layer of complications in what are already emotionally charged decisions.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Gosh this thread is making me so, so glad I do not insure; a lot of it is because there'd be so many exclusions on mine and in the eyes of the horse market they have no real value. However it seems it's also wiser to simply put money aside so you can have full autonomy over the treatments you use on your own animal. I know I've wondered about insuring before but fundamentally I'm really glad it's not an extra layer of complications in what are already emotionally charged decisions.
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I don’t think (hope?) insurance probably plays much part in most people ultimate decisions, more just that a lot of people would get a shock when they try to claim. Insurance companies certainly aren’t particularly transparent about it and a lot of people assume they’re doing the right thing protecting their most valuable asset but chances are you’ll never be able to claim a penny…

It’s one of the reasons I also don’t waste my time insuring my horses for their full value and jumping through the hoops of providing x-rays and vetting certificates, it’s ultimately a waste of time in the event you actually try and claim their value back anyway. :rolleyes:
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Briefly unblocked them to see what's what. It's a horse with such painful feet it won't stand on 3 for foot care so they put it in the sling and lift the whole animal off the ground.
Animal has elevated insulin, 'active infection in feet' & rotational laminitis. (But of course he's got rotation because of trim, not metabolic issues).

I'm blocking them again now for my own sanity! I find many of their posts really distressing
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Read this, not going to look 😢
 
Tiddlypom said:
I’m still pretty bruised 2 years on after a vet tried to get me first to trial a course of steroids on my uninsured late 13yo homebred after I’d just witnessed her having a protracted and very unpleasant seizure.
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That's not good TP. I'm sure that must have made a traumatic situation, where you know what the outcome will be, far more difficult.

When my old girl started having full blown seizures, the vet said 'we could give her a course of steroids if you want, but in all honesty they won't do anything for her at this point and their really is nothing more we can do for her.'
 
I insure, but I have never claimed for euthanasia. In the moment I've never thought od it even when I should have. I purely insure for vets bills to be paid.
I saw a terrible end to a poor mare who had a pelvis fracture, She did months and months in cross ties with no improvement. The insurance complany wanted to send their ovwn vet for a second opinion. This took forever and in the mean time she fell over night and was in horrific pain so had to be pts urgently. It was truely heart breaking and I detested the owners for holding out for the insurance payout.
 
I think it's important not to confuse the list of conditions for which the insurers will uphold a death claim as being a list of conditions when you should put your horse to sleep. Your insurance company cannot make you do anything. You chose when you think euthanasia is appropriate and for what condition and at what stage. You just have to accept that it might not meet their guidelines for a payment of the value of the horse.
Most people have insurance so they can cover vet fees, not death anyway.

No reasonable person would send a horse for surgery with a 1% chance of success. You would just accept that you didn't meet the criteria for a death payout, and move on, happy that you'd done the right thing. You are not actually losing any money (as you are with vet fees) - you never had the money in the first place!

I remember years ago seeing a horse with severe colic that would not be resovable by surgery. It was a difficult situation as the owners were away, and we were in contact purely by phone. I very very strongly recommended immediate euthanasia and told them quite clearly that the only alternative would be a painful 'natural' death, which would be not be acceptable on welfare grounds. I refused to refer the horse to hospital. The owner made contact with a hospital directly and arranged for their groom to drive it there. The horse inevitably died en route, on a motorway, causing the groom to lose control of the trailer. Thankfully due to the late hour no other vehicles were involved, and the groom was unhurt. But I am still angry every time I remember that scenario, both for the poor horse, and the poor girl.
 
poiuytrewq said:
I insure, but I have never claimed for euthanasia. In the moment I've never thought od it even when I should have. I purely insure for vets bills to be paid.
I saw a terrible end to a poor mare who had a pelvis fracture, She did months and months in cross ties with no improvement. The insurance complany wanted to send their ovwn vet for a second opinion. This took forever and in the mean time she fell over night and was in horrific pain so had to be pts urgently. It was truely heart breaking and I detested the owners for holding out for the insurance payout.
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Gosh likewise I can't imagine this ever crossing my mind during a crisis. It was something I only pursued in hindsight when it came to making all my claims and settling my bills with the vet. My horse wasn't valued monetary wise at a huge amount, but my actual vets bills I'd racked up far exceeded what I was insured for, so I claimed everything & anything I could and then paid off the remaining balance myself.

I will say despite my general negativity towards insurers on this thread, I had only switched my insurance over to Petplan a few months before losing my horse and they were exceptional to deal with throughout and din't quibble anything really. It was just a bit sobering having to produce a lot of paperwork to 'prove' my horse died legitimately. But thems the rules I guess.
 
Gamebird said:
I remember years ago seeing a horse with severe colic that would not be resovable by surgery. It was a difficult situation as the owners were away, and we were in contact purely by phone. I very very strongly recommended immediate euthanasia and told them quite clearly that the only alternative would be a painful 'natural' death, which would be not be acceptable on welfare grounds. I refused to refer the horse to hospital. The owner made contact with a hospital directly and arranged for their groom to drive it there. The horse inevitably died en route, on a motorway, causing the groom to lose control of the trailer. Thankfully due to the late hour no other vehicles were involved, and the groom was unhurt. But I am still angry every time I remember that scenario, both for the poor horse, and the poor girl.
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It was colic that my pony had. He was wild with pain, could not stand still. He was either running round the yard or thrashing about on the floor.
It wasn't our regular vet who attended, it was someone who hadn't seen him colic before, so she didn't know how much worse this was to his usual response to pain. I tried to explain but in the moment I don't think I did a good job of it as we were all frantic. The attending vet did say we could send him for surgery but with how he was I didn't think we'd ever get him in the box, or if we did, that there would be much left of it afterwards. And with his history of colic I didn't think much of his chances of recovering from the operation so I said, no, pts.
I do have savings rather than insurance, there is enough there for an operation so the cost of it wasn't a factor, but that didn't even cross my mind, it was about the pony and getting him free from pain.
I am not slating the vet who said we could send him for surgery. She was excellent with him, and calm in a crisis, but I think if it had been our usual vet the topic of surgery would not have come up.
 
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