Now I am really confused Re towing legalities.

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birdof1977

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Right. I have an old trailer pre 1982 with no vin number or weight plate etc. It is in the process of having a new lighter floor fitted.
A local trailer manufacturer can make me some weight plates etc.
I only have a cat B license and know I can only tow up to 3.5 ton. Car and trailer GVW combined.
My vehicles GWV is 2275kg, but it has a substantial pay load the kerb weight is only 1530kg. The trailers unladen weight is 700kg and I was planning on having a weight plate made to say the gross weight at 1200 kg as I only ever intend to tow one light weight small horse or my daughters pony. Both weigh under 500kg. All of this will make me legal.
But after reading VOSAs guide to horseboxes, I am now totally confused. They quite clearly states on page 18 at the end of the page, that it doesnt matter what is printed on either the towing vehicle or the trailers weight plates. It really all comes down to the ACTUAL combined train weight of both vehicles.
Wow. Can the police, vosa, and dvla please get together and come up with one set.of rules regarding this! Do any of them really have a clue about it?
I have done extensive research on this to make sure I am completely legal to tow and thought I had it sorted until I read that
 
I have had a few chats with ROG about this and he has given me some really helpful advise. But I am wondering if this is something that has been overlooked??
I am going to phone VOSA on Monday and clear this up. It really is such a minefield. One person says one thing and someone else another.
Its a stupid rule any way. Who is to say that someone who passed their test even a day after the next person is less than capable of driving or towing certain vehicles.
Its given me a right headache. Lol.
 
birdof1977 said:
Right. I have an old trailer pre 1982 with no vin number or weight plate etc. It is in the process of having a new lighter floor fitted.
A local trailer manufacturer can make me some weight plates etc.
I only have a cat B license and know I can only tow up to 3.5 ton. Car and trailer GVW combined.
My vehicles GWV is 2275kg, but it has a substantial pay load the kerb weight is only 1530kg. The trailers unladen weight is 700kg and I was planning on having a weight plate made to say the gross weight at 1200 kg as I only ever intend to tow one light weight small horse or my daughters pony. Both weigh under 500kg. All of this will make me legal.
But after reading VOSAs guide to horseboxes, I am now totally confused. They quite clearly states on page 18 at the end of the page, that it doesnt matter what is printed on either the towing vehicle or the trailers weight plates. It really all comes down to the ACTUAL combined train weight of both vehicles.
Wow. Can the police, vosa, and dvla please get together and come up with one set.of rules regarding this! Do any of them really have a clue about it?
I have done extensive research on this to make sure I am completely legal to tow and thought I had it sorted until I read that
Click to expand...
I have read that VOSA publication and it is perfectly clear
The total weights referred to are GTW and GTW is the plated weight on the vehicle which comes into force when a trailer is attached and means the the maximum the whole combination can actually weigh - it does not refer to the GVW of the vehicle and the plated MAM weight of the trailer

The bit in blue needs serious legal advice because in all the cases I know of only the original trailer manufacturer can put a weight plate on the trailer

This could be deemed a new manufacturer using the 'bones' of an old trailer therefore making it a 'new' trailer in which case this new manufacturer can apply a weight plate

This new manufacturer must be a recognised business

If the plate is deemed legal at 1200 then you will be ok doing what you propose
 
If you start making calls to VOSA and DVLA then remember this ....
VOSA know about weights not licences
DVLA know about licences not weights
The police are the only ones who can prosecute you for licences but police and VOSA can prosecute you for exceeding weights

This is exactly why I joined this site - to make sense of all three when put together
 
This is the bit that confuses me ROG.
When read carefully. It states that its the actual weight of the combination. NOT the plated weights that makes you legal. This is why I am confused.

This picture taken from the document issued by VOSA.
Screenshot_2013-04-12-19-23-27.png
 
The very last bit of the example suggests that it doesnt matter what is written on weight plates for either the trailer or the towing vehicle, but the acctual.combimed weight of trailer + load and car + load??
 
I think you will find that anyone can replace a manufacturers plate.New rules have come into force regarding an obligation on manufacturers to fit a plate giving design weights from new. But older trailers may now require a plate though . All you need to know is given inthe construction and use regulations.With regard to weight.It has always been the actual weight that counted . Both case law and vosa confirm this. I know there has been some very misleading and suspect information to the contrary ,but the fact is that manufacturers plates are no more than a statement regarding the calculated design loads for which the manufacturer takes responsability.
 
This is what I thought Mike. A compant local to me that builds custom trailers from new has assured me that they can legally make me a weight plate to put on the trailer. And it is written above by Vosa them selves that it is the actual weights and they dont specify with what category licence, just as long as its within legal weight thresholds.
 
ONLY the manufacturer of a trailer under 3500 kgs can change the weight plate - it has been that way for years

To confirm the above contact any major trailer manufacturer - I suggest IW as they are well informed

Trailer plates come under construction and use regs for trailers under 3500 kgs

I could make one up and put it on a trailer but if checked upon it would not be legally recognised


Regarding that image on the weights it refers to this type of example
Vehicle
GVW 2000
GTW 4000

Trailer
MAM 3500

When both are placed on a weighbridge the ticket says 4000 kgs and when weighed seperately the vehicle and trailer both weigh 2000 each

The total plated weights (GVW+MAM) add up to 5500 but the set up is legal as no plated weights have been exceeded

For licencing the above example uses the plated weights so a B licence holder could not drive it even if the actual weight was 3500 total and not 4000
 
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VOSA only deal with weights and not licences so asking them about licence requirements is pointless

If anyone wants to believe other than what I have stated in this thread then its their choice to do so - I just give the factual info
 
I just cannot belive alot of these laws, over complicated meaningless rubbish !! sorry whoever decided you are safe to tow a combination less than 3.5 tons with out taking a test but not more !!! needs to wake up and join the real world, normal people would have made the licence catogorys,
car licence solo vehicle up to 3.5 ton.
towing licence light trailer upto 3.5ton .
light HGV up to 10 tons.
Rigid HGV any weight.
Artic or wagon and drag.


We are ruled by Idiots... Its a crock of ***** IMHO!!!
 
Things were worse prior to 1997 when a new driver could tow a huge trailer immediately after passing the basic test in a car or drive a 7.5 tonne lorry with air brakes !!!


Nowadays it is not quite so bad but a newly qualified car driver can, with the right vehicle, tow a trailer weighing 1.5 tonnes

There ought to be some sort of compulsory basic training (like CBT for bikes) before someone can tow at all
 
Schedule 8 of the construction and use regulations


Particulars to be shown on plate for trailers (including trailers forming part of articulated vehicles)

1.Manufacturer's name.
2.Chassis or serial number.
3.Number of axles.
4.Maximum weight for each axle (a).
5.Maximum load imposed on drawing vehicle (b).
6.Maximum gross weight (c).
7.Maximum weight in Great Britain for each axle (a) (e).
8.Maximum gross weight in Great Britain (c) (f).
9.Year of manufacture (d).

Please note that the regulations only require the manufacturers name .They DO NOT require that the plate is the original one or even that it was fitted by the manufacturer.

Please also note that the regulations require the Maximum gross weight . Maximum gross weight is a defined term within this statutory instrument. Maximum alowable mass is a term from the driver and vehicle licensing regulations .They are NOT the same thing.

Actualy the regulations are quite straightforward providing you remember not to make assumptions as to the meaning. Apparently similar wording whithin separate regulations pursuant to different acts can not be taken to mean the same thing unless the regulation makes direct reference to it being a definition taken from another act.
 
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The point is that they dont. The problem people seem to be having is that they think that the plate gives the MAM .It doesnt. Maximum allowable mass is a term used by the driver and vehicle licensing regulations and therefore refers to the maximum your licence allows and not the physical capacity of the trailer to carry that load safely.
 
I think the confusion here is over what's possible to tow ( ie the vosa site) and what your license is restricting you to. The info you want is here -

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow

"Licences held from 1 January 1997

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:

a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to 4,250kg in total)
a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)


The bold part breaks down into 2 parts.

First off, that a trailers max auth mass(the max the trailer will weigh) is not greater than the kerb weight of the car ( what the car actually weighs)

And then... that the cars Gross weight (the max it can legally weigh) and the trailers max are not greater than 3500kgs.


Now in your example. :cool:

Taking it bit by bit, your cars kerb weight is - 1530kg meaning your max on your trailer ( its own weight plus what it carries cant be more than this (( mam explanation here - https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained)).

So your trailers own weight is (unladen) is 700. Meaning so far you can plate it to 1530-700 = 830kg payload. (the kinda pointless part as your license restricts you more)


However... we then need to take point 2.

"(with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)"

Your cars total is 2275kg. Your license total is 3500kg.
3500-2275 = 1225kg to play with.

The trailer weighs 700kg of this 1225kg. 1225-700= 525kg. This meaning the trailer couldnt have any more than 525kg weight on top to be legal on your license...



So..... 700kg actual weight, 700+525=1225kg plated weight. Then you can tow legally.

:cool:
 
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ROG said:
VOSA only deal with weights and not licences so asking them about licence requirements is pointless

If anyone wants to believe other than what I have stated in this thread then its their choice to do so - I just give the factual info
Click to expand...

This, Rog is very knowledgeable, I've picked his brain many times on this subject even with complex calculations :cool:
 
The bit in bold in the last post missed out the word MAM - DVLA have confirmed that this is an accidental omission and does not change what is required in law

Vehicle GVW + trailer plated MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs
The law does not refer to actual weights where B licencing is concerned
 
ROG said:
The bit in bold in the last post missed out the word MAM - DVLA have confirmed that this is an accidental omission and does not change what is required in law

Vehicle GVW + trailer plated MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs
The law does not refer to actual weights where B licencing is concerned
Click to expand...


alainax said:
"(with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)"
:cool:
Click to expand...

This part? It is silly that they have tacked it on in brackets, should be a lot more clear that the word " in total" is really meaning the total mam/gvw of them both.


This -

Vehicle GVW + trailer plated MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs
Click to expand...
Is a much better way of putting it
 
ROG said:
The bit in bold in the last post missed out the word MAM - DVLA have confirmed that this is an accidental omission and does not change what is required in law

Vehicle GVW + trailer plated MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs
The law does not refer to actual weights where B licencing is concerned
Click to expand...

And this is why it is complete nonsense. A trailer does NOT HAVE A PLATED MAM. It has a maximum gross weight. And if that exact term is not used ,the plate does not comply with the construction and use regulations (section 66)
 
Mike007 said:
The point is that they dont. The problem people seem to be having is that they think that the plate gives the MAM .It doesnt. Maximum allowable mass is a term used by the driver and vehicle licensing regulations and therefore refers to the maximum your licence allows and not the physical capacity of the trailer to carry that load safely.
Click to expand...

OK my mistake here,having done some slightly more in depth checking from the actual licensing regulations ,the current version does state that the MAM shall have the same meaning as maximum gross weight within the C&U regs.However the fact remains that you can fit a new plate providing it conforms to schedule 8 of the C&U regs. You can also reduce weights ,you just cant increase them.
 
When I first went into giving advice on these issues I consulted a friend of mine who at that time was a VOSA court expert on some of the issues

Using his expert knowledge and the knowledge of those who manufacture trailers under 3500 kgs MAM I know that any plating or replating must be officially logged so that officials can check the accuracy of those plates

It is logical to have this in place or it would leave every tom dick and harry open to do what they liked with plated weights at whim

Home made trailers cannpt be officially plated and any put on by those that build them are not legal which is why the load ratings of all the tyres are used up to a maximum allowance of 3500 kgs
 
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ROG said:
When I first went into giving advice on these issues I consulted a friend of mine who at that time was a VOSA court expert on some of the issues

Using his expert knowledge and the knowledge of those who manufacture trailers under 3500 kgs MAM I know that any plating or replating must be officially logged so that officials can check the accuracy of those plates

It is logical to have this in place or it would leave every tom dick and harry open to do what they liked with plated weights at whim

Home made trailers cannpt be officially plated and any put on by those that build them are not legal which is why the load ratings of all the tyres are used up to a maximum allowance of 3500 kgs
Click to expand...

Requirements for logging details and approvals for trailer components, only came into effect last year. The new requirements regarding construction and approval only apply to new trailers and are not retroactive. But again ,ultimately it comes down to what the law actualy says and it is not illegal to replace a lost ,or damaged plate or even to reduce weights.
Home made trailers built prior to the new regulations last year ,remain legal. Not only can the maker fit a plate, he is obliged by law to .
 
Mike007 said:
Requirements for logging details and approvals for trailer components, only came into effect last year. The new requirements regarding construction and approval only apply to new trailers and are not retroactive. But again ,ultimately it comes down to what the law actualy says and it is not illegal to replace a lost ,or damaged plate or even to reduce weights.
Home made trailers built prior to the new regulations last year ,remain legal. Not only can the maker fit a plate, he is obliged by law to .
Click to expand...

NEW rules did come in last year and added to the existing rules

with the new rules a trailer MAM or various MAMs for a trailer must be listed when made or it cannot be downplated

If your knowledge is greater than that of a court expert on these issues please give links to your info
 
ROG said:
NEW rules did come in last year and added to the existing rules

with the new rules a trailer MAM or various MAMs for a trailer must be listed when made or it cannot be downplated

If your knowledge is greater than that of a court expert on these issues please give links to your info
Click to expand...

Road vehicles approval regulations(2009).Constructionand use regulations.Driver and vehicle licensing regulations. If you are working from anything else then you will probably get it wrong. These are statutory instruments and the wording is critical.It is also well worth your time to read these in depth .You will find that the reason for the Road vehicle approval regulations is to prevent the sale and use of vehicles with untested and potentialy unsafe critical components ,and to provide a paper trail back to their certificates of conformity.I have already refered you to section 66 of the constructioon and use regulations and also schedule 8. So far the only reference you have put forward is "some bloke told you".
 
ROG said:
If you start making calls to VOSA and DVLA then remember this ....
VOSA know about weights not licences
DVLA know about licences not weights
The police are the only ones who can prosecute you for licences but police and VOSA can prosecute you for exceeding weights

This is exactly why I joined this site - to make sense of all three when put together
Click to expand...
As far as I was made aware Vosa cannot prosecute you for being overweight with a trailer that is plated under 3.5t and for that matter neither can the police. Only in most cases the police will prosecute you for being unsafe if you exceed the limits.If vosa stopped you overweight they can only refer you to the police.Trailers of this size are outside Vosas responsibility!
 
Well if.only the only original manufacturer can put a new.plate.on my trailer then I am well and truely up the creek. They stopped making my trailer about 15 years a go!! Although I have phoned both ifor williams and wessex. Both of which are happy to make a weight plate up for me. I have also inspected every inch of the trailer and cannot find a chassis number either. So?? But would the average police man even know the weight of a horse etc. They would have to take you to a weigh bridge to determine a definite weight if they.actually intended to prosecute you for being over weight, or else how could it possibly stand up in court!!
 
birdof1977 said:
Well if.only the only original manufacturer can put a new.plate.on my trailer then I am well and truely up the creek. They stopped making my trailer about 15 years a go!! Although I have phoned both ifor williams and wessex. Both of which are happy to make a weight plate up for me. I have also inspected every inch of the trailer and cannot find a chassis number either. So?? But would the average police man even know the weight of a horse etc. They would have to take you to a weigh bridge to determine a definite weight if they.actually intended to prosecute you for being over weight, or else how could it possibly stand up in court!!
Click to expand...


Think more along the lines of insurance. God forbid if there was an accident, its something like towing illegally which gives them an excuse not to pay out.

If you can get it all weighed, and a proper weight plate put on legally, then do it ! :)
 
Mike007 said:
Road vehicles approval regulations(2009).Constructionand use regulations.Driver and vehicle licensing regulations. If you are working from anything else then you will probably get it wrong. These are statutory instruments and the wording is critical.It is also well worth your time to read these in depth .You will find that the reason for the Road vehicle approval regulations is to prevent the sale and use of vehicles with untested and potentialy unsafe critical components ,and to provide a paper trail back to their certificates of conformity.I have already refered you to section 66 of the constructioon and use regulations and also schedule 8. So far the only reference you have put forward is "some bloke told you".
Click to expand...
The bloke I know is a member of this site - geebee45
 
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