Numpty questions about trailers ...

Llanali said:
Plated for design!!!

Perfect 11s absolutely correct!! If towing with a pre 97 license- tow what you like as long as car can legally tow what you actually have on the back!

Post 97, without taking trailer test, tow only if your trailer mam is less than car towing weight, and whole thing less than 3.5 tonnes.

Post 97 with test, tow as pre 97 without.


Part of the plating and mam bit people get so wrong and spout is also to do with artic tractor units and trailers I do believe.

I think Juno, perfect 11s, mike 007, me And a few other spend our lives correcting this in hho!
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Yes I would love to see a sticky trailer post from admin that sets out the facts so we dont have this constant stream of suposition guesses BS and urban myths every time someone asks for a little help about towing .... the plating and mam thing is getting a bit old .. :D
 
smurf said:
Yes, I know what kind of license I have I'm trying to find out what I can tow :p
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If you took your car driving test before 97 OR you have taken a trailer test then you can tow any trailer that weighs less than the towing capacity of your car for instance say car can tow 1800kg your trailer could carry 2000kg and weighs 800kg empty and you put a horse in that weighs 600kg and 200kg of tack, feed and water total weight on the car is 1600kg thats ok you can trundle down the road with the confidence that comes with useing your motorvehicle lawfully :D... , hope this helps ...
 
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perfect11s said:
If you took your car driving test before 97 OR you have taken a trailer test then you can tow any trailer that weighs less than the towing capacity of your car for instance say car can tow 1800kg your trailer could carry 2000kg and weighs 800kg empty and you put a horse in that weighs 600kg and 200kg of tack, feed and water total weight on the car is 1600kg thats ok you can trundle down the road with the confidence that comes with useing your motorvehicle lawfully :D... , hope this helps ...
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Yeahhh - someone who seems to know what they are talking about :p:p
Many thanks
 
perfect11s said:
Yes I would love to see a sticky trailer post from admin that sets out the facts so we dont have this constant stream of suposition guesses BS and urban myths every time someone asks for a little help about towing .... the plating and mam thing is getting a bit old .. :D
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I did this - http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968 - is that the sort of thing you mean?

Some more posts I did recently on this subject - http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96058
 
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perfect11s said:
Sorry but you are totaly and utterly wrong small trailers are not Plated ....under 3500 kg they show manufctures design weights as a guide Asumming the person has the corect licence all that matters is the actual weight
you are towing and whether it is inside the recomended limits of the vehicle manufacturer
Its about time admin put up a sticky thread with the true facts to stop idiots posting misinfomation every time there is a post about towing ...... oh and the only way you can be "done" is if they weigh your outfit and it is over the recomended weights then they could proscute for useing an unsafe/overloaded vehicle ......
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I'm not going to argue over the points I've already made, except to clarify that by a plate, I mean the manufacturers VIN plate.

I will also point out that the trailer manufacturers design weight (on the VIN plate) is not a guide, its illegal to exceed this weight.

And I think 'idiot' is a bit strong!
 
sallybush said:
I'm not going to argue over the points I've already made, except to clarify that by a plate, I mean the manufacturers VIN plate.

I will also point out that the trailer manufacturers design weight (on the VIN plate) is not a guide, its illegal to exceed this weight.

And I think 'idiot' is a bit strong!
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Sorry for calling you an idiot.. But this isnt a game and if you post misinfomation about something as important as towing it isnt helpfull esp to people who are confused already and are just trying to find out the facts so they can tow safely and legaly.. .... oh and no one is saying you should or can exceed design weights, or capacitys never have and hopefully never will!!
 
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sallybush said:
The type and age of license you hold is completely irrelevant; the plated/gross weight of the trailer must be equal or less to the towing capacity of the tow vehicle. It doesn't matter if you have a pre or post '97 license, B or B+E, C+E etc, the law is that the tow vehicle must be capable of towing the trailer fully loaded. The post-97 licenses just add further restrictions.

I've recently done B+E, C and C+E tests with various instructors, driving courses through work, and very clear briefings from my employer, (who operates one of the largest vehicle fleets in the UK) that the trailer must be suited to the vehicle fully loaded. If you look at many of the vans used by utilities, they will have decals on the rear doors stating '2200kg MAX GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT'.

It may not be 'fair', and many people are inadvertently breaking the law, but its pretty clear. If you get pulled by VOSA or the police (like they were at Hickstead last month) this is how they will determine whether your outfit is safe and legal.

What you can do, is ask the trailer manufacturer to provide a new plate for the trailer. So if you have a 2700kg trailer but your car can only tow 2200kg, you change the plate, which just involves drilling a couple of rivets out, fit the new 2200kg plate, and as long as the trailer plus horse/tack/water doesn't exceed this new lower weight, you are perfectly legal. We did this with our Equi-trek, going from 3000kg to 2800kg so we could legally tow with a van.
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MAX GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT means the Max the vehicle can tow by adding the actual weight of the trailer with the actual weight of the load on it
If it said MAX MAM TRAILER WEIGHT then that would be totally different

The only reason to downplate a trailer would be to make it fit in with the towing rules for a B licence where the MAM of a trailer must no more than the unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

Any trailer plated at 3500 kgs or under can be towed by a B class vehicle on a B+E licence but that trailer must not exceed any towing capacity/actual/GROSS TOWING/GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT listed for that vehicle

I will agree that whoever used the word GROSS is likely to confuse many as the MAM is also the GVW = the GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT and saying GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT looks very similar

sallybush, I can see where you could easily get the wrong end of the stick so I will not condemn you for that but I will berate whoever wrote it in the first place

ADD - your employer needs to investigate what they currently believe because THERE IS NO LAW which states that the MAM/GVW of a trailer cannot be more that the listed towing capacity

The resident VOSA member on this site. geebee45, has also confirmed what I have said in a post done on here within the last few weeks

If someone tells you something is illegal then ask them for the law that says that
 
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I am non the wiser to the trailer laws reading this post, that said I have heard of having to replate a trailer to allow it to be towed safely wit a pre 97 licence!

Can anyone find a link that confirms or otherwise who is correct?
 
lannerch said:
I am non the wiser to the trailer laws reading this post, that said I have heard of having to replate a trailer to allow it to be towed safely wit a pre 97 licence!

Can anyone find a link that confirms or otherwise who is correct?
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What you need to ask for a is a law which states that something cannot be done or must be done

there are so many who misread the info given on websites that the above suggestion is the only true way
 
lannerch said:
I have found this http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm which does support sallybush will go and look for more
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That link totally supports what I have said and not what sally said

The only bit of daft advice on it is where it says about downrating trailers - notice it does not say why anyone would need to

X (combined weight of horses + unladen trailer weight) should be below or equal to trailer’s MAM

X (combined weight of horses + unladen trailer weight) should be below the towing vehicle’s max. towing capacity
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Where does it say the the MAM of the trailer must not exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle?
 
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lannerch said:
http://www.armitagetrailers.com/trailerlaw.htm
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From that site -
Drivers Licence

Holders of driving licences issued before July 1996 and providing that they have Group A or if after 1990, category B, are entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to a maximum train weight of 8.25 tons.

Err max on a B+E licence would be 7.0 tonnes 3.5 vehicle and 3.5 trailer !!

They have gone into C1+E restricted without mentioning it - oh yeah - great site - NOT

Also from that site -
Braked Trailers

Although trailers with overrun brakes can weigh up to 3500kg gross, actual maximum weights are set by the specifications of the vehicle that is doing the towing. The law says you must not exceed the Gross Train Weight that the manufacturer has set for the towing vehicle. Look in the vehilce handbook or on a plate riveted to the vehicle to find this figure. You then have to subtract the weight of the towing vehicle (including fuel, driver, passengers, luggage or cargo) from the Gross Train Weight. The amount you are left with is the maximum theoretically-possible weight of trailer that can be towed legally. REMEMBER, the law does not care whether the trailer is empty or packed to the roof with bricks, what counts is the plated gross vehicle weight of the trailer.

The last sentance is designed to confuse!!
 
What I like is when people say that the police or VOSA have prosecuted those towing trailers but fail to say exactly what law they were charged with

For weight issues they were likely to be prosecuted for exceeding the vehicle towing capacity, exceeding the trailer MAM weight, exceeding the gross train weight or for exceeding axles weights.

Strange that there has never been a listed case where a driver has been prosecuted where the trailer MAM exceeds the vehicle towing capacity - except for rumour of course!!
 
I think that regardless of what the small print of the law says, if you want to be safe from confusion, and from worrying about whether you are overweight if you do X,Y or Z its probably best to make sure that your tow vehicle can to at least the maximum weigght of your tailer, as stated on its VIN plate, as common sense states that that will be the starting point of any conversation should you get pulled over or have an accident.

The Bateson Ascot has a max loaded weight of 2.3ton, so I would personally want to tow it with something with a capacity of at least 2.5ton. Apart from the standard, Landy, Shogun 4x4 options you could also use a Kia Sorento, VW Tiguan or Hyundai Santa Fe (new model).
 
I really was on my iPhone and really could not edit. I am not biased either way am just interested to know what the law really is although it does not matter whatever the case I tow in the law an iw510 with a landcruiset tow car so perfect11s I cannot agree with your edit!

Fully agree with the post above though
 
could we not ask H&H to put up a sticky containing the definitive laws for trailers? It is very confusing with even some trailer test companies putting incorrect info on their websites (whether through ignorance or to increase their business I'm not sure!). Naturally the easiest way to be confident is to do as Shazzababs says but this may not be possible for everyone (eg already own potential towing vehicle etc.). :)
 
Shazzababs said:
I think that regardless of what the small print of the law says, if you want to be safe from confusion, and from worrying about whether you are overweight if you do X,Y or Z its probably best to make sure that your tow vehicle can to at least the maximum weigght of your tailer, as stated on its VIN plate, as common sense states that that will be the starting point of any conversation should you get pulled over or have an accident.

The Bateson Ascot has a max loaded weight of 2.3ton, so I would personally want to tow it with something with a capacity of at least 2.5ton. Apart from the standard, Landy, Shogun 4x4 options you could also use a Kia Sorento, VW Tiguan or Hyundai Santa Fe (new model).
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We are talking about the law and what is legal yes its a good idea to have some extra in hand for instance I used to tow my batson ascot wth a ford pickup that was rated by the manufacta to tow just over 5 tons !!! however if you only carry one small horse or a kids pony there is no reason why you need to have the full towing capacity and nothing wrong in the eyes of the law , like has been said to the point of exhaustion in the event of being stopped or involved in an accident you may get weighed and then this
will be used as evedence by the police /vosa to convict you if you're belived to be driving an unsafe combination ..... not guess work!!!! ....
 
So you say perfect11s but we are yet to establish what the law actually is as several interpretations appear different!

Why does anyone replate a trailer ?
 
lannerch said:
So you say perfect11s but we are yet to establish what the law actually is as several interpretations appear different!

Why does anyone replate a trailer ?
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because as has been said if you only have a post 1997 car licence you are only legaly allowed to use a combination of 3500 kg train weight otherwise its a totaly pointless exercise...
 
Trailers are replayed if you want to drive it on a b license- ie before 97 but without a test. This is the instance where trailer max weight must be less than unladen car and whole train less than 3.5 tonnes. Trailers are downplayed to allow people to tow without a trailer test or a pre 97 test.
 
Whether the car can pull the weight is only one cause for concern. Can the car STOP the trailer should something go wrong. IM(humble)O 4x4's should pull trailers cars should not!

I have just traded my Nissan Navara and 505 in for a 7.5 tonne. Been a few places now and done the calculations. Lorry is cheaper on fuel that the Nissan and trailer. Nicer and safer and I only travel 1 horse most of the time. If I were you i'd stick to your lorry:)
 
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

This page.!

Firstly- the first paragraph is for B license- ie without a trailer test adn after 97. this is where all the bit about trailer and load being less than unladen car, adn whole thing being under 3.5 comes in...

Secondly, the bottom of the page.

Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM

Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. *For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.*

particularly this last!! It does not matter what your car CAN tow, it's what it IS towing. B+E is what you have either pre 97, or with a trailer test post 97.

better?
 
Thanks
It's like a foreign language lol no wonder there is so many different interpretations!
All the more reason for h@h to take up the gauntlet and clarify the subject once and for all!
 
Shazzababs said:
I think that regardless of what the small print of the law says, if you want to be safe from confusion, and from worrying about whether you are overweight if you do X,Y or Z its probably best to make sure that your tow vehicle can to at least the maximum weight of your tailer, as stated on its VIN plate, as common sense states that that will be the starting point of any conversation should you get pulled over or have an accident.
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No harm in doing that if the extra cost and inconvenience of replating does not bother the driver

The authorities are still likely to have it weighed if they suspect any sort of overloading though and if it is overloaded then its a double whammy - overloading above the plated MAM weight and the vehicle towing capacity!!!!!
 
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