Llanali
Well-Known Member
Sorry, shazzababs, why on this earth should I pay to replate my trailer because the police will Start a conversation with a sentence relating to it?
Numpty questions about trailers ...
- Thread starter smurf
- Start date
ROG
Well-Known Member
What it fails to mention is that 3.5 tonnes is the max plated trailer MAM for any vehicle of 3.5 tonnes or under nad I would have thought that info was pretty important !
A few real life examples on the .gov site would also have helped to clarify what they were saying
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
OOps 3.5 on overrun brakes higher is possible on air brakes!!!! for instance the fifth wheel co is making mini artic/gooseneck caravans and trailers and some of those are 4000kg they uprate the trainweight of pickups to suit ...
ROG
Well-Known Member
Fair point but for the greater majority it would be 3.5 tonnes max
Llanali
Well-Known Member
I quite agree.... Clear as mud.
Luci07
Well-Known Member
God. I tow and I am now totally confused!
In my particular instance, as I like to keep it simple - I have the pre 97 license. My trailer is a Bateson Deaville (so around 950kg unladen). I chose a Jeep with a max towing capacity of 3.3 tonnes. The guideline (though not a legal requirement if I remember) was not to exceed 85% of the max towing capacity of the car. I have a 17 hand horse who can travels comfortably in the trailer and rough guide, he is around 700kg. I have tended to avoid taking 2 horses in my trailer purely because we have a mother of a hill to get back upto the yard and there is nothing I can find which can give any kind of formula to understand weight and hills!. My jeep has absolutely no problem pulling my trailer and horse..
I have sometimes thought about trading in trailer and jeep for a lorry just for the sheer convenience but the jeep a: has to cart all my dogs around b: is a complete godsend when we hit snow and bad weather. My other car remains dog and horse free, is clean and a joy to get into!! (and a lot cheaper on petrol!)
In my particular instance, as I like to keep it simple - I have the pre 97 license. My trailer is a Bateson Deaville (so around 950kg unladen). I chose a Jeep with a max towing capacity of 3.3 tonnes. The guideline (though not a legal requirement if I remember) was not to exceed 85% of the max towing capacity of the car. I have a 17 hand horse who can travels comfortably in the trailer and rough guide, he is around 700kg. I have tended to avoid taking 2 horses in my trailer purely because we have a mother of a hill to get back upto the yard and there is nothing I can find which can give any kind of formula to understand weight and hills!. My jeep has absolutely no problem pulling my trailer and horse..
I have sometimes thought about trading in trailer and jeep for a lorry just for the sheer convenience but the jeep a: has to cart all my dogs around b: is a complete godsend when we hit snow and bad weather. My other car remains dog and horse free, is clean and a joy to get into!! (and a lot cheaper on petrol!)
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
If you have a very steep hill however I would say you havent seen a steep hill on a narrow lane unless you are in devon or some parts of Wales !!!!! the manufactures recomended towing weights allows for a hill start , if its very steep and tight you could use low range 4x4 just to climb the hill for extra power and grip then shift back into high range..... as for the confusion you are obviously well inside safe limits with what you are towing and the car ..and on your other point sadly as said before morons are posting rubbish and mis infomation ..ROG is right as are others ,
lannerch
Well-Known Member
With the dvla written like a foreign language and the law open to interpretation the word Moran is a little harsh!
Accourding to the dvla website anyone with a licence pre 97 can tow a trailer under 3.5k with any vehicle! But then I'm willing to bet that's not soley the law!
Don't worry luci07 you are perfectly legal what ever interpretation is correct
Accourding to the dvla website anyone with a licence pre 97 can tow a trailer under 3.5k with any vehicle! But then I'm willing to bet that's not soley the law!
Don't worry luci07 you are perfectly legal what ever interpretation is correct
ROG
Well-Known Member
Not quite - the SAFETY (not legal) recommendation is never to have the ACTUAL weight of the trailer more than 85% of the ACTUAL weight of the car/van when towing
I bet that Jeep has a big manufacturer listed towing capacity ....
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
Oh dear and you were doing so well ROG !!!!!!!! It was some shite from the beardy yogurt kniters in the caravan club in a attempt to keep the mupets with the boxes of air shiny side up!!! It
has absolutly no place in the real world of towing as most tow vehicles weigh a lot less than what they are desighed to tow, From a landrover at about 2 tonnes rated at 3.5 a farm tractor about 3 times its weight and artic tractor unit well you just go and tell mr or Ms trucker they can only tow six tons not Sixty when they are about to load up a big excavator !!!!LOL and how would you surgest someone tows two big horses???
ROG
Well-Known Member
Hold on a mo - I did say towing with car/van and deliberately did not diverse into towing with a set up which is purposely designed otherwise
I also stated very clearly that this a SAFETY recommendation and not a legal one
I never stated that towing a larger weight WAS unsafe - just that it COULD be
A lot could depend on many things including the stability, design and power of the towing vehicle
Back to LGVs - a W&D is designed to carry very large weights but there are plenty of videos showing what happens if the rigid is empty and the drag is loaded and it starts to wobble - the drag takes control of the rigid often leading to disaster
Luci07
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I have to disagree. I live in Surrey so - you really should be right. However....wait for it... yard is actual on the Downs so 500 ft above Dorking. It is also a narrow road (OK not single track). Its not a mountain but its not what you would expect to see in my neck of the woods.
And as for the hill starts... yes frequently have to use them. You see, the local dump is near the bottom of the hill so most weekends I get stuck in the queue.
But you have made me feel a lot happier about whether I could try another horse (maybe not one as large as mine!) and be sure of getting back home!
And I knew the 85% wasn't a legal requirement but more of a "you should be around this".
At some point I want to switch to an equitrek but will prob move to a long wheel base version of the jeep before I do (and when I can actually SAVE my money!)
sallybush
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, the comments on this thread are not by Sally, but her husband 
I can't see that H&H would ever stick their neck out and post details on this subject as has been so clearly demonstrated, it is a contentious issue. My employer will obviously have done their homework on what we are able to tow, and this means either they believe that the vehicle has to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer, or its unclear and they are unwilling to be used as a test case in court! As a result we can only tow our smallest trailers (approx 1800kg MAM) behind a Transit 350. As I said, we have a huge fleet of vehicles nationwide and they wouldn't unnecessarily restrict us without good reason.
I can't see that H&H would ever stick their neck out and post details on this subject as has been so clearly demonstrated, it is a contentious issue. My employer will obviously have done their homework on what we are able to tow, and this means either they believe that the vehicle has to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer, or its unclear and they are unwilling to be used as a test case in court! As a result we can only tow our smallest trailers (approx 1800kg MAM) behind a Transit 350. As I said, we have a huge fleet of vehicles nationwide and they wouldn't unnecessarily restrict us without good reason.
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perfect11s
Well-Known Member
It is only a contentious issue on here with mupets like you that only know half the facts and want to argue!!! the law is the law simple!!!!! and its quite possible your company transits can only tow a trailer weight of 1800 kg because of the load in the van ie tools matirials and built in equipment means the towing weight is limited by the total train weight because the van is already and allways loaded near its payload as most utility company vehicles are, the fleet engineer will have worked out a average load and posted 1800 kg as a safe maximum on the vans, they will not want prosicutions for overloading and this also covers the firm so they can trot out " well we told our employes it could only tow 1800 it is their fault not ours its overloaded" when they are stopped with a overloaded trailer...Just to clarify, the comments on this thread are not by Sally, but her husband
I can't see that H&H would ever stick their neck out and post details on this subject as has been so clearly demonstrated, it is a contentious issue. My employer will obviously have done their homework on what we are able to tow, and this means either they believe that the vehicle has to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer, or its unclear and they are unwilling to be used as a test case in court! As a result we can only tow our smallest trailers (approx 1800kg MAM) behind a Transit 350. As I said, we have a huge fleet of vehicles nationwide and they wouldn't unnecessarily restrict us without good reason.
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lannerch
Well-Known Member
The only muppet posts on here are from the one calling everyone the muppet!
The law is unclear open to interpretation and not yet tested in court!
The law is unclear open to interpretation and not yet tested in court!
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
Its true what they say!!! Never argue with an idiot !!!!!!!!ROFL What law is unclear ????? are you Thick or just here for a aurgument
to wind people up and confuse law abiding folk!!!!!???? I think these forums are to help people and share news and infomation, people like you seem to want to spread misinfomation and confusion a best your ignorant of the law at worst trying to make trouble and worry people ...
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ROG
Well-Known Member
Transit 350 from my recollection has a GVW of 3500 and a GTW of 5750 and no manufacturers towing capacity listed - but I could be wrong on that
To hitch that up to a trailer with a MAM of 3500 gives flexibility for loading
Lets say that the van unloaded weighs 2250
Lets say that the trailer unloaded weighs 1500
That leaves room for a max payload of 2000
That 2000 can be distributed between the van and trailer as the driver sees fit providing: -
the 3500 of the van is not exceeded
the 3500 of the trailer is not exceeded
Any listed manufacturer max towing capacity (actual weight) is not exceeded
The flexibility of load distribution is why there are specific laws on weights for the van, the trailer and the combination of the two
To hitch that up to a trailer with a MAM of 3500 gives flexibility for loading
Lets say that the van unloaded weighs 2250
Lets say that the trailer unloaded weighs 1500
That leaves room for a max payload of 2000
That 2000 can be distributed between the van and trailer as the driver sees fit providing: -
the 3500 of the van is not exceeded
the 3500 of the trailer is not exceeded
Any listed manufacturer max towing capacity (actual weight) is not exceeded
The flexibility of load distribution is why there are specific laws on weights for the van, the trailer and the combination of the two
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I must be an idiot !!! I am confused I understand pre 97 licence anyone can tow up to a combination of 3.5t with any vehicle which means that I can tow my ivor 510 with a
Mini however I suspect this is not soley the only law that applies and it is not actually black and white in it's interpretation hence mine and others confusion!
Mini however I suspect this is not soley the only law that applies and it is not actually black and white in it's interpretation hence mine and others confusion!
lannerch
Well-Known Member
But then I also agree there are very steep hills around Dorking I also know of incredibly steep in the lakes, yorkshire, scotland and other areas and certainly not soley devon and some parts of wales! So forgive me purfect11 for not believing every word you type!
If the law is so simple as you say then show me and I for one will be very grateful
If the law is so simple as you say then show me and I for one will be very grateful
ROG
Well-Known Member
No wonder you are confused - you have mixed up the rules with towing on a B licence and towing on a BE licence
The max combined MAM/GVW for towing with a B licence is 3.5 tonnes (if trailer MAM is over 750kgs)
The max combined MAM/GVW for towing with a BE licence is 7 tonnes by default (3.5+3.5)
The towing rules/laws for BE are very simple
Max vehicle MAM/GVW can be up to 3.5 tonnes
Max trailer MAM/GVW can be up to 3.5 tonnes
DO NOT EXCEED: -
Vehicle MAM/GVW
Trailer MAM/GVW
GTW (if given)
Vehicle towing capacity (actual -not MAM/GVW- weight allowed to be towed) if given
All the above are LAWs and can be found on the Govt legal sites if anyone wishes to search them out and put the links on here
A totally legal example - my car has a manufacturers towing capacity of 1000kgs and I can legally tow a trailer which actually weighs 1000kgs unladen but which is plated at 3500 - If I was to put anything on it then it would put the actual weight over 1000 and therefore be illegal
Lets not have MYTH RUMOUR and SPECULATION where others THINK they have substance
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
This is right but you have got mixed up with MAM and the actual loaded weight... undersandable as the example isnt very good, as it says you canot tow 2 horses in the trailer with the outlander but dosent give a further example that you could tow one and be legal but would need more towing capacity for two IE the example used of the discovery with 3500kg tow capacity which the web site doesnt make clear, and worst still they dont explain the down plateing is only to get round the post 97 car licence restictions not good from a web site that puports to be a source of infomation on horse trailers!!!!!......
ROG
Well-Known Member
From the last link posted........ http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm
Examples
Horses: 15hh m/w @ 500kg + 16.3hh TB @ 600kg = combined weight 1100kg
Trailer: Ifor Williams 510 @ unladen 1000kg; MAM 2700kg (fine with above horse combination)
Horses + Trailer gross weight = 2100kg
Illegal:
Vehicle: Mitsubishi Outlander with a Maximum towing capacity of 2000kg
This vehicle does not have the authorised towing capacity to tow the gross weight of the horses and the trailer.
Legal:
Vehicle: Landrover Discovery with a maximum towing capacity of 3500kg
This vehicle is well within the capacity needed to tow these horses with this trailer.
I will also add this as another legal example
Vehicle: Toyota Prado GXL TD with a maximum towing capacity of 2500 kg
This vehicle is well within the capacity needed to tow these horses with this trailer.
Examples
Horses: 15hh m/w @ 500kg + 16.3hh TB @ 600kg = combined weight 1100kg
Trailer: Ifor Williams 510 @ unladen 1000kg; MAM 2700kg (fine with above horse combination)
Horses + Trailer gross weight = 2100kg
Illegal:
Vehicle: Mitsubishi Outlander with a Maximum towing capacity of 2000kg
This vehicle does not have the authorised towing capacity to tow the gross weight of the horses and the trailer.
Legal:
Vehicle: Landrover Discovery with a maximum towing capacity of 3500kg
This vehicle is well within the capacity needed to tow these horses with this trailer.
I will also add this as another legal example
Vehicle: Toyota Prado GXL TD with a maximum towing capacity of 2500 kg
This vehicle is well within the capacity needed to tow these horses with this trailer.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
Thanks rog but is the authorised towing capacity the legal max the car can tow or the manufacturers recommendation ( which youvwould be stupid to ignore )
The only legal definition I can find about towing is http://m.direct.gov.uk/syndicationC...1c1f9722433fb994201109232031¶m=DG_4022564 which again worries what licence you have what you are towing but no mention of what you are towing with!
So according to that theoretically towing my ifor 510 with a mini would be legal as long as your licence was pre 97!!!
Clear as mud!
The only legal definition I can find about towing is http://m.direct.gov.uk/syndicationC...1c1f9722433fb994201109232031¶m=DG_4022564 which again worries what licence you have what you are towing but no mention of what you are towing with!
So according to that theoretically towing my ifor 510 with a mini would be legal as long as your licence was pre 97!!!
Clear as mud!
Llanali
Well-Known Member
Lannerch- in answer to the first point, briefly, both. I believe the legal limit in eyes of police/law is what the manufacturer says in the limit for that vehicle.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
But does the law actually state this it's common sense yes but is it actually written as such?
If it is I can't find it! Will look more on sunday. I suspect there are also law on reckless driving that may cover the size of tow vehicle but that too would be open to interpretation.
I used to tow a rice 2 horse trailer with one horse and a vauxhall astra was I legal never got stopped if I wasnt but for safty reasons I would hate to do it now.
If it is I can't find it! Will look more on sunday. I suspect there are also law on reckless driving that may cover the size of tow vehicle but that too would be open to interpretation.
I used to tow a rice 2 horse trailer with one horse and a vauxhall astra was I legal never got stopped if I wasnt but for safty reasons I would hate to do it now.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
This is interesting suggests the size of your tow car is not directly law but more so that towing a too heavy trailer would invalidate your insurance thus making you illegal http://m.whatcar.com/car-news/what-car-q-and-a/can-my-peugeot-tow-a-horsebox/226830
ROG
Well-Known Member
Try looking up the laws on vehicle design weights - there must be some or why else would manufacturers be required to list them?
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
I think there is a little bit of a grey area with cars and light vans as I understand it there is no relationship in law between the car and towing weight unlike lorrys where you have a ministy plate on the unit on a rigid or on a trailer over 3500kg which sets out the legal maximum axle loads and total load this can override what the design weights on the manufactures plate says!!! It is 100% carved in stone and canot be exceeded , and for instance if you have a 7.5 ton lorry and the plate says axle one 3400kg and axle 2 5500 and a total weight of 7499kg and you are stopped and taken to a weigh bridge and found to be over weight on either axle or as a total you will be done and fined its cut and dryed no argument, but in the case of a car or van towing they would have to weigh you and take you to court and use the manufactures recomended weights as evidence to prove you were useing a dangerous or unsafe combination, and yes your insurance would use it as a way of avoiding paying a claim in the event of an accident too... Oh and on the other point I would guess the manufacture has to quote design weights to gain type aproval and to comply with constuction and use laws...
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