Nuts on or off? Aggressive with other dogs, would it stop him?

[Sugarplum Furry]

At my wits end. Timber, aged 5, GSD x Siberian Husky, huge, powerful, atheletic, fantastic house dog, great with people, wonderful with children, gets on well with small terrier type dogs but tries to kill anything bigger than a spaniel. I mean seriously, the red mist comes down and I can barely hold him despite every kind of harness I've tried on him.We got him when he was a year old and he'd never had any training at all so we'd missed that important window when he was a puppy. He'll do sit, stay, lie down etc, his re-call is terrible! I've tried clicker training with him, great if he's not distracted, but if he sees a dog he wants to fight you could click until the cows come home and swing a whole side of beef in front of his nose, but he's just plain gone, man. Today he pulled me down a flight of steep stone steps in his quest to murder a lurcher. It's a miracle I managed to hang on to him...I am rather black and blue now.

So, the question....nuts off? Would it help? Opinions PLEASE!!!!

Thank you.

 

[SusieT]

Have you tried a halti?
And I would also take him to private training. I personally think nuts off can't hurt!

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Hi Caribb. Yep tried a halti but he sort of runs through it..hard to describe, but it didn't work. And training, to my shame I have to admit we've been expelled from 2 dog training schools in the area. Ahem blush. Timber just barked continually and drove everyone else bonkers. I do promise you we've tried so hard with his training. He's not allowed on the sofas at home, we make sure we are first before him through any doorway or gate, I warn visitors to ignore him until he calms down. He's just so utterly bloody minded when he's out and it's such a shame, he so gorgeous...we get stopped by people all the time who want to ask about him and make a fuss of him....

Husband just suggested we nip to the tack shop and buy Timber a bridle. A chifney perhaps??

 

[soloabe]

Yep you need to get him done, won't solve it but may calm him down.
He needs to wear a muzzle when he is out and you need to get hold of behaviorist.

 

[RuthnMeg]

Chop his 'man bits' off, iam sure it will help, but I doubt it will cure it. put a muzzle on him when out as suggested ^^^^ , a dog like that would scare the heebee jeebies out of me and my dogs. With a muzzle at least you know he can't kill any other dog.
And with a dog with his temperment, you won't want to use him as a stud dog?

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Cheers guys. My feeling is that with his nuts off at least he wouldn't have all that boy stuff whizzing around his system and we just might have calmer mutt. I. personally, can't go on like this with him, every walk I take him on I feel as though I'm not exactly dicing with death but I'm incredibly relieved if if we haven't met any other dogs. And where's the pleasure in dog owning in that? I have a list of people of who have said they would love love a puppy from him if he ever fathers any, he's so beautiful, but I'm afraid they are going to be sadly disappointed, I can't justify passing on that edge he has to other dog owners. Hey ho, a little chat with our vet this week I think....

 

[Maesfen]

Take his nuts off but if it makes no difference then, you won't like it, but good in the house or not, he's a liability and I'd have him put down. He'll get you in serious trouble and would you like to go and tell someone your dog has killed their dog, I don't think so? It will be worse too because you know of his bad temperament so you would legally have no excuse. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

 

[soloabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Take his nuts off but if it makes no difference then, you won't like it, but good in the house or not, he's a liability and I'd have him put down. He'll get you in serious trouble and would you like to go and tell someone your dog has killed their dog, I don't think so? It will be worse too because you know of his bad temperament so you would legally have no excuse. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats rubbish, don't listen.

Get a behaviorist in and they will either work in your home or bring you to their classes which are specifically for problem dogs.
This is a socialization and dominance issue that can be sorted with a behaviorist and some effort on your part.

Chin up chick

 

[kirstyhen]

At 5 most of this behaviour is now learnt, having him castrated may help, but in reality it's going to take a lot more to stop him reacting this way. You definately need to muzzle him when out and get in touch with someone who specialises in dealing with dogs like this.

Cayla and CaveCanim on here have experiance of this sort of thing and would possibly be the best people to talk to about it.

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Behaviorist..brilliant idea....!! Off to have look to see who's in our area.

MFH09, no, we're not having him put down, but thanks for your opinion.

 

[dingle12]

Get the nuts off for a start if you have no intention of breeding he should not have his nuts sorry thats my opinion, as soon as my dogs drop they come off. Then then please take him to training and socialized please muzzle him when your out. My dog when through a nasty stage and i could not walk him and at my wits end i had to put him in kennels for a week and he came out a different dog think it was because he was so close but could not get to them it helped alot. Good luck.

 

[Elle123]

Personally i think with a good behaviorist and bye bye to man bits! He could be a cracking dog. You sound like a very responsible dog owner and that is so refreshing to hear. Would be brilliant if you could find someone that would go out on a walk with you etc, in a real life environment etc.
Also what is he being fed? some dog food is like rocket fuel and change in diet can work wonders.
I certainly dont think he should be destroyed. Put him in a muzzle if he is a liability in that sense. It sound like it could simply be a lack of socialization, both of his crosses as such have early development and need to be experiencing everything at a much earlier age. With time i really do hope you can enjoy your walks together and have a nice happy (gorgeous!) doglet!
Hope it helps.

Elle
x

 

[CorvusCorax]

Boy bits off and chuck the harness. You might as well strap yourself to a jet plane, huskies are a breed designed to pull and you are attaching yourself to the bulk of his weight.

Yes, get a behaviourist in, but I will also give you some tips. These things are just a guide and particularly with the lead work, you may prefer to get a professional in to make sure your timings and body language are correct.

I had the same problem with my dog a year ago, he was a monster, quite simply, and I could not hold him. He went for a puppy at training class and a man twice my size had to step in and lift him off his front feet.

Now he can train with other dogs just feet away from him and can be left in a down with me out of sight while a passive dogs walk past and plays with puppies.
Next month I am aiming to get him his traffic-safe companion dog qualification under German rules.

He was never muzzled but it is up to you.

First of all, lose the nerves. I know you will be tensing up when you see another dog, because that is what I used to do. He will feel that as fear and try to protect you from the other dog - a vicious cycle. Sing a song, keep calm, deep breaths, it's just another dog.

Do not keep him away from other dogs, this heightens the frustration he will feel.

You do NOT need protecting - you are the one who does that.

Start at home with focus training - use a command like 'watch' and the longer he holds your gaze, the more you treat him. You cannot train a dog much until it is concentrating on you.

Get a choke chain and a leather training lead, half choke or slip lead, on the right way around and right up behind his ears, not the base of his neck (the strongest part)

Keep him short on your left, rest of the lead in your right hand.
When he LOOKS at the other dog (you know, ears forward, on the hunt) give him a very firm check and a loud 'NO'. You may need to borrow a passive dog in the beginning - I find people in the park don't really appreciate being used as guinea pigs

This is not a tug of war. Give him as much length of the lead as you feel safe and a very sharp pull.
EDIT - ie so he knows the difference between a loose lead and a tight one.

You need to check on the 'look' - any later and it can count as agitation and might make him worse.
When his focus returns to you, reward him (praise, treat, ball, whatever floats his boat) and repeat, repeat, repeat.
He needs to learn that you are much more interesting and rewarding than other dogs. Everything else will come after, once you have established that.

Don't breed from him, please, I neutered my dog for this among other reasons, in all conscience I couldn't live with selling a pup to someone who wasn't able to cope if he passed dog aggression on to his progeny.

Good luck, he sounds like a mission, people told me I would never be able to get dog aggression out of my boy but with hard work and determination, we got there.

Please also PM Cayla, she was there for me amongst the back ache, the tears, the wondering what I was doing with this bloody dog! And gives the best kicks up the arse

 

[severnmiles]

CC, I thought Chokes were now illegal? Completely off topic I know!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Choke chains?! Pets@Home have stopped selling them (but continue to sell slip leads, which do exactly the same thing), but I am not aware they had been made illegal.

Used them on dogs my whole life and used correctly, they are a very valuable tool.
They are used in the GSD showring (in the dead position), both the large, flat link brass variety and the longer, finer linked ones. I believe many other breeds use them for showing too in the 'live' position, or at least they used to.

I think it would be a very sad day if they were made illegal

 

[soloabe]

[ QUOTE ]
CC, I thought Chokes were now illegal? Completely off topic I know!

[/ QUOTE ]

No i'm pretty sure they haven't.

Just pets at home and their uneducated head people have decided to stop selling them.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Glad you came on here CC, sure your advice will help the OP. Severnmiles I sincerely hope choke chains aren't illegal or I am breaking the law every time I take my girls out.

To the OP, he may be a bit old for castration to make a vast difference but would definitely get him done anyway. Not getting at you but sounds like your lad is a classic example of the madness of some of the "designer" crosses people seem to produce nowadays. I hope you are able to make some progress with him from the advice on here, oh and I would agree that he should be muzzled when you take him out, sounds like he is too big a dog to take any chances.

 

[severnmiles]

I hadn't heard anything but I was told that the choke chains are now illegal and only the half chokes are legal to use. It was literally only two/three weeks ago I was told. I use one on Genova...

 

[CorvusCorax]

I use one on both of mine too, brass large link for her and fine link for him (dead most of the time, clipped onto the choke ring when manners are required

) and will continue to do so.

As TarrSteps once said on here, it is no different to bitting a horse.

 

[Spudlet]

I keep pretty up to date with animal welfare law, and I have certainly not heard of this change. Although that said dogs are not in my remit, but I do get the most random email updates so I would have thought I'd have heard about this?

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep pretty up to date with animal welfare law, and I have certainly not heard of this change. Although that said dogs are not in my remit, but I do get the most random email updates so I would have thought I'd have heard about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonder where the couple got it from then? Perhaps it's Wales only, WA banned electric shock collars so wouldn't surprise me - before that can of worms is opened I don't own nor use a shock collar!

 

[Spudlet]

That could be it, am trying to see the dog code of practice now but it can't find the document to download from their website.

If it is from the Code, then they are almost certainly not actually banned. Codes of Practice made under the Animal Welfare Act give advice and guidelines on how to meet the law. However, not meeting the terms of a Code is not an offence in itself. It is something that might be used IF a welfare problem developed however - just as meeting the terms of the Code could be used as a defence in court.

So, assuming the Code does advise against check chains (because I can't see any Regulation or consultation that does this). If, for example, someone was prosecuted for mistreating their dog, by failing to provide the Five Freedoms in the Animal Welfare Act, the use of a check chain might be evidence (if it had been misused in such a way as to cause harm).

However in itself, using one correctly would not be an offence.

 

[jvoyce]

[ QUOTE ]
At 5 most of this behaviour is now learnt, having him castrated may help, but in reality it's going to take a lot more to stop him reacting this way. You definately need to muzzle him when out and get in touch with someone who specialises in dealing with dogs like this.


[/ QUOTE ]


What she said !

 

[CAYLA]

This is to familiar

I have a gsd x husky coming in with severe aggression issues towards other dogs from another rescue who have tried in vain to socialise this dog with other dogs and have exhausted all avenues, so he is coming to me

to doggy boot camp

As suggested already this is an all too familiar learned behaviour that is now seen as an acceptible part of his walk, you really do need a one on one to teach/guide you to handle him, and as suggested by CC the correct tools to do this, using the wrong restraint is basically a loosing battle, and harness is useless and basically allows him to use the full strength of his power to his advantage and not yours

I would definately suggest you castrate him, it will not solve the issues as castrating does not solve owner handling problems it could however help him and make him a little easier to work with without fighting against those hormones.
It sounds like u need some confidence and support in how best to handle him, a behaviorist/trainer is a good place to start, but please seek a one that is experienced with aggression/social issues.
He needs a chance to socialise without restraint, which is what I will be working on with my arrival, but obs this needs to be controlled with an experienced and confident handler present as being restricted to the lead/behind a kennel door can actually heighten the issue/frustration/aggression as from the dogs point of view it becomes very frustrating to see and smell from a distance and not beable to do what comes natural and have a good old sniff around up close to familiarise with one another which is how we socialise dogs in the first instance.
In th mean time the owner continues to restrict all access, or reel in the lead at the speed of light or pull the dog up on to it's back legs agains their body with the hope they can hold onto the dog, and this just heightens the dogs reaction as they know what is about to follow due to the owners reaction.
I would also be gettig the old bycicle out and burning some energy of the boy

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

http://www.thebigdogsworld.com/images/view.aspx?productId=286

This is the harness we use on him at the moment, it tightens up under his front legs when he pulls. And yes, he's bred to pull! We can get him to walk to heel if there are no other dogs around, which is good. We've tried the turning around and walking the other way until he calms down method, no good, and we've tried letting him meet the other dog, fine if the other dog is totally submissive but not if the other dog challenges in any way. As for keeping my energy down and not letting it affect the situation, I'm pretty good at it, having learned to do it working with young unhandled foals and other nervous horses, but I'm aware that I'm probably sending out subtle signals that Timber is picking up on, however much I slow my breathing down etc.

So...the general opinion seems to be nuts off, and hooray, husband has finally agreed with me, you know how blokes can be about these issues!

Thanks everyone.

KX

 

[littlemisslauren]

QR
I completely understand the frustration of the OP. My dog is the same, although he doesnt have the power to pull me anywhere (he is a border terrier) he just attempts to hang himself on his lead. The advice on here is fab as usual and makes me feel a little more confidant about our walk this afternoon.

With regards to using a muzzle... I havent seen one small enough for my boy

 

[CorvusCorax]

Lauren has just reminded me of something else.......don't stop him moving.

I used to think I was being polite by taking my dog away and making him sit as the other dog passed. This can heighten tension in both dog and handler...keep moving, try, try, try and get his attention away from the other dog, keep positive, keep 'interesting', bloody MAKE him move past (at a safe distance) but a stand-off can make him very frustrated and like I say, heighten the extremity of his reaction.

Again, it is like a horse that is buggering about, forwards, forwards, forwards, keep him moving!
It may not look particularly tidy or attractive but it is better in the long run.

 

[littlemisslauren]

Sorry bit of a post hijak!!
CaveCanem - I meant to thank you for advising me against sitting the dog in the bush to let the others past. He is getting so much better now that i keep him moving, he still doesnt like other dogs running up to him when they are off the lead but he is almost perfectly behaved when we pass another dog on the lead (I never thought I would say that!)

Now I think it's time i worked on my issues with people who leave disobedient (sp?) dogs off the lead or walk their dogs on a lunge line.

 

[CorvusCorax]

No worries - B will be on a lunge line at the beach tomorrow, but I am a master of reeling him in at speed