Oh I'm in love!

If I'm allowed to go outside the subject of Labradors specifically, I've read a book, and some articles, by Jan-Erik Sundgren. He was a Heredity researcher, and State agronomist at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, and for many years he worked as an advisor for the Swedish Kennelklubben, and different breed clubs.

Judging by his book, which came out 1990, he believed that the biggest causes behind today's dog's health problems is (in no particular order)
* inbreeding,
* too much line-breeding,
* too many overused stud dogs (so called Matadors) leading to a too small gene pool,
* that the thinking of reserving breeding for the best/too high standards for non health related issues can exclude too many potential breeding animals which leads to the narrowing down of gene pools,
* and regardless if we're talking purebred or not purebred dogs, bitch owners who breeds their bitches without enough knowledge about breeding.

Maybe if he had he written his book today, he would also have mentioned environmental pollution, and perhaps also additives in food, but who knows.
By the way, he's also said something about that even though first generation crossbreeds can be more innate healthy, not purebred animals do not have to be better than purebred animals as future breeding animals, since all that matters is if you're crossing two animals with the same damaged/weak genes or not.

Anyhow, it is his recommendations that is basis to for example the Lapphund breed club in Sweden's rules, and recommendations about that: A Finnish Lapphund stud dog is allowed to sire 25 puppies before he is 5 years old, and should not to be used at all after that he has sired 50 puppies in total.
That the total inbreeding for a 5 generation Finnish Lapphund pedigree should not exceed 6,25%. And that a planned mating between two Finnish Lapphunds should have an inbreeding of max 2,5%.

I'm sure the inbreeding percentage for Jonna's litter was below 1, if my vague recollection is correct, it was 0,2%. But of course, low inbreeding percentage is no guarantee neither against accidents, nor nature's lottery. Besides, sooner or later something has to start going wonky, or dogs would be immortal.

Another of course is that the rules/recommendations about trying to prevent Matador stud dogs currently only seems to work if the stud dog owner have a conscience. I know that the Swedish breed club for Rhodesian Ridgeback recommends that no stud dog is allowed to sire more than 40 puppies. Yet, I've heard one Swedish stud dog owner brag on TV about that his Rhodesian Ridgeback had sired over 200 puppies when you also counted in the puppies sired in other countries!
I don't know what the equivalent number is for Border Collie stud dogs in Sweden, but I've also heard an owner of a Border Collie stud dog basically say that he couldn't sire any more puppies in Sweden, so they were now hoping that bitch owners in other countries would want to use him.

Some years ago a breeder of a quite small breed proudly told me that a stud dog she had bred, and I had met, could now be found in the pedigree of every new puppy born in Sweden of that breed. It made me so sad to hear that, I didn't know what to answer her. I think I mumbled something vaguely about that he'd been a nice dog.
Talk about shooting herself, and the breed, in the foot, I can't imagine that it leads to anything good.

But back to Labradors, I know the Labrador breed is divided also in Sweden. I've heard that there was a few Labradors who managed to become both Swedish Show champions, and Hunt champions in the early 90's, but nowadays the closest I've been able to find is that some Labradors in the Nordic countries have managed to receive Excellent in individual quality at dog shows, at the same time as they have good results at different hunting trials.
Like the Norwegian: Djurbergas Second Ess For Brave

i282319414699617682._szw1280h1280_.jpg

thats a beautiful dog
 
I must say it’s so refreshing to see ‘proper
Labradors’ on this thread.

I was one of those awful people growing up who thought they were boring, well I had terriers - lots of them, so by comparison anything was! However as an adult I have a huge appreciation for them, and really admire a ‘good one’.

I have some die hard lab relatives, but must confess some of their dogs do nothing for more. Pokey faces and wonky ears like you used to see on gsd x black lab types a lot once upon a time. The dogs here and wonderful.

Clodagh I also feel your pain about the should I shouldn’t I situation, I have the same with corgi Sherman tank. She’s just come out of season and it’s been an nightmare with keeping everyone separate and the other two howling and being tarts. A lot of fuss really.

She turned out a lot nicer than I anticipated in terms of type and temperament, her breeder agrees too - she was a very plain almost dowdy pup compared to her litter mates. She has lots of positive attributes (not including health testing results as obviously she hasn’t been yet as I really don’t know what I plan to do) and unlike a lot of her breed, isn’t grossly long and actually has legs on which to move on. It’s difficult though, a big commitment. I have the perfect stud lined up too who would compliment her but as a breed they often whelp one or two and then run into trouble or give up and need a c-section.

Like you, homes wouldn’t be an issue. But there’s definitely something quite mammoth about the sense of responsibility and commitment in taking a litter that makes it feel a little hard to see the wood for the trees on the matter. I don’t know how people do it so Willy nilly for a bit of cash here and there, and without any thought or real reason behind taking a litter.

The dog you posted is quite special I must say. It’s unusual to see that ‘sort’ of yellow from working lines eith such nice type and conformation, IME.

I absolutely agree with Clodagh, a breed such as a corgi should be encouraged, they’re ridiculously rare these days, although increasingly popular in the States of social media is to be believed. If your girl is a good example and returns good health tests, I think you should.
 
I absolutely agree with Clodagh, a breed such as a corgi should be encouraged, they’re ridiculously rare these days, although increasingly popular in the States of social media is to be believed. If your girl is a good example and returns good health tests, I think you should.
For me it’s the concern over c section versus self whelp, and there really is no tried and tested method to call what’ll happen there. She’s not very long in the back compared to some (which is good), I’ve heard this can be a contributing factor. She has a reasonable length of leg for the breed , ive heard this can be a contributing factor. She’s well muscled and gets a lot of exercise, I’ve this can be a contributing factor too. But there really is a huge question mark over it all, my own perception from research is around breeding for longer and lower dogs and bigger heads - but I could be totally wrong.

She’s from a total outcross, Dad was imported from NZ. 0 inbreeding COI. She’s well bred on both sides of her pedigree, and the bitch line goes back to some really outstanding dogs. Like a lot of longer standing Pembroke breeders, her line hasn’t been DM tested - as many breeders within the breed feel that as ‘affected’ doesn’t mean ‘will get it’ that it’s pointless. And many don’t want to restrict the gene pool, I hear the phrase about throwing the baby out with the bath water quite a lot. She is from a line where there haven’t been any known cases going back decades, and all the dogs of her breeding and extended breeding have made exceptionally old bones for the breed. I don’t really know where I sit on the whole issue, as can see both views in terms of for and against testing. Personally, I think it’s a useful tool but with the breed as it is the militia approach that some have taken decrying breeders who don’t dm test, isn’t helpful.

I haven’t shown her - I like watching some confirmation judging to see the dogs there, not really what gets placed. As I have no interest in the politics, ditto for why I have no interest in participating. But her litter sister has done very well in her short, pre lockdown, career. She is of a very sound type, and not exaggerated. One of issues within the breed is that the pets for sale websites are full of badly bred ones, puppy farm ones, and things that look like sheltie x Jack russells. The depth of quality just isn’t there in the breed.

I totally discredited the idea when it was initially floated to me. She was a very plain and almost dowdy pup as I’ve said, and I was quite happy she would fill her job - a sidekick, and when the time came I’d go back to her breeder for another. She has turned out very nice and continues to improve with age. She isn’t exaggerated, moves soundly, and is of an impeccable albeit bossy temperament. The stud I like is similar and just as sound. He is a US import from similar lines and would be a degree of an outcross but a sensible combination to give me something back, and probably something to her breeder and another who owns dogs in partnership with her breeder.

It is really difficult. Her line won’t end if I don’t take a litter from her. She was one of four girls, and I know one will definitely have a litter taken from her. But equally I guess the bug has bitten a bit because it’s very clear she is a quality animal in terms of from a breed standard POV. She’s neither the crossbreed looking online type, nor the exceptionally long exceptionally low type with a huge head.

She’s just finished her second season, aged 18 months so I don’t have to make a decision just yet.

sorry for hijacking thread clodagh!!! It’s just so good to discuss with similar like minded people though, as opposed to the breed everything brigade.
 
I have come across a lot of breeders when I was looking for a pup and you seem like exactly the type of person who should breed, you are doing it to further the breed and bring better dogs into a small gene pool. Depending on the size of the litter you could keep a pup yourself, it also eliminates finding one home. The pictures alone would be worth it!
 
Sorry Luke, but I agree with Clodagh and CT, you should definitely breed from her. She looks a fabulous type to me, and I love her character. If you do, can I put my name down for a puppy please ??

thank you. I am of course biased, but do so agree.

We shall see what happens. As I say, no impulsive decision either way but if it’s a no then the line will still carry on. I have always had a preference for a tri, she was the only one in her litter. The stud I hypothetically would like is also a red headed tri but more fawn than red. He’s a bit mellower than her too so they’d compliment in lots of ways. My worry just comes back to the c-section. I’d be planning to keep one, preferably a dog, so would even break my sacred three is a magic number rule.

we shall see. We shall see.
again, sorry for thread hijacking!!
 

Attachments

  • 8D551B10-5EB8-4911-84D8-D896D0A063D9.jpeg
    8D551B10-5EB8-4911-84D8-D896D0A063D9.jpeg
    933.9 KB · Views: 11
  • 4BC88F09-C406-4A65-B640-E94C2DD485BB.jpeg
    4BC88F09-C406-4A65-B640-E94C2DD485BB.jpeg
    944.6 KB · Views: 11
  • 6E75D1E4-8A28-40E4-AC7E-6D5DF7451D6B.jpeg
    6E75D1E4-8A28-40E4-AC7E-6D5DF7451D6B.jpeg
    406.4 KB · Views: 11
  • 9BFFCC90-120B-4240-9194-B51D8C1AEF8D.jpeg
    9BFFCC90-120B-4240-9194-B51D8C1AEF8D.jpeg
    301.6 KB · Views: 11
As for the C section fears, unlike a bulldog where they struggle to give birth, surely with most breeds a C section is a risk any time.
Like my foxhound bitch, and generally they are the healthiest of dogs.
I would say if I was whelping a bitch I’d have a vet I sincerely trusted on speed dial!
 
It’s quite high instances in pembrokes, probably more common than self whelping. She was a c section. Most breeders hope for self whelp but prepare for c section. In some instances a bitch will part self whelp and then give up the ghost. Self whelping bitches are very highly regarded. It is quite an issue but apparently has been for some years now.

My vet, who we’ve gone through to years, has a lot of theories as to why - so do most breeders, but as I said earlier there’s nothing concrete to either not do/do to prevent. I suppose in some ways it’s no different to others but probably leans slightly more to one side.
 
Sorry these are huge, this is my boy, Toast, the apple of my eye, fab dog, bred for working ability and temperament rather that colour (mum was black, 2 dark yellow/red, 3 yellow and 3 black pups in the litter) I've wanted a red lab since falling in love with one my great aunt owned when I was a child in the 1960's. I love that he wasn't bred for his colour, he has 4/4 hips, 0/0 elbows, in date clear BVA eye test and has DNA tested clear for everything that can be tested for. He truly is my dog of a lifetime. He has the most fantastic temperament, easy, biddable, great hunting ability/nose and switches off in the house. I pick up on 3 different local shoots with him and often accompany my husband to some big name shoots. I can have him in a hotel room overnight where he will settle in his bed and he never lets me down. I feel very priviledged to own him.


_G7I0309-Edit_Sm.jpg_G7I0362-Edit_Sm.jpg
 
Last edited:
Sorry these are huge, this is my boy, Toast, the apple of my eye, fab dog, bred for working ability and temperament rather that colour (mum was black, 2 dark yellow/red, 3 yellow and 3 black pups in the litter) I've wanted a red lab since falling in love with one my great aunt owned when I was a child in the 1960's. I love that he wasn't bred for his colour, he has 4/4 hips, 0/0 elbows, in date clear BVA eye test and has DNA tested clear for everything that can be tested for. He truly is my dog of a lifetime. He has the most fantastic temperament, easy, biddable, great hunting ability/nose and switches off in the house. I pick up on 3 different local shoots with him and often accompany my husband to some big name shoots. I can have him in a hotel room overnight where he will settle in his bed and he never lets me down. I feel very priviledged to own him.


View attachment 63451View attachment 63452
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210110-092823~2.png
    Screenshot_20210110-092823~2.png
    541.8 KB · Views: 10
  • Screenshot_20210110-092956~2.png
    Screenshot_20210110-092956~2.png
    893.8 KB · Views: 10
  • Screenshot_20210110-092836~2.png
    Screenshot_20210110-092836~2.png
    473 KB · Views: 10
Now that is a lovely dog! Well worth using as a stud.

Thank you, my daughter owns his litter brother, who was returned to breeder as a rehome due to a change of circumstances (the other red) and she now has a 14 week black pup who's mum is their litter sister. The breeder is a gamekeeper on a medium sized shoot who needs dogs that can just get on with their job and are easy to have around. I know 4 generations of his family (they're all black, keepers preference) and they're the most lovely dogs.
 
Yes, Labs whether workers or show-bred are supposed to be easy. Those that are not, definitely should not be bred from imho.

My parents first Lab was fox-red (yellow), again not bred for colour and long before the days of hip/eye/ etc scoring. We now have 2 x18ths old bitches, one black, one yellow who was sold as fox-red but really has darkened to butterscotch. Tbf the breeder charged the same price for all the pups regardless of colour/sex. The current pair are small from worker lines and bought for availability when the Rottweiler was left on her own suddenly. Two healthy dogs but they will not be bred from.
 
Last edited:
Yes, Labs whether workers or show-bred are supposed to be easy. Those that are not, definitely should not be bred from imho.

My parents first Lab was fox-red (yellow), again not bred for colour and long before the days of hip/eye/ etc scoring. We now have 2 x18ths old bitches, one black, one yellow who was sold as fox-red but really has darkened to butterscotch. Tbf the breeder charged the same price for all the pups regardless of colour/sex. The current pair are small from worker lines and bought for availability when the Rottweiler was left on her own suddenly. Two healthy dogs but they will not be bred from.

Some of those pics make him look huge, he's around 30kg so middling for a male working bred dog.
 
Top