nikkimariet
Well-Known Member
Nicely said.
Ok, DRESSAGE RIders/horses and Hacking???
- Thread starter wednesdayadams
- Start date
Nicely said.
kit279
Well-Known Member
Totally depends on the horse and the rider. Racehorses in Newmarket have to hack to the gallops - they do it in big strings, like herds, and they do it from very young (yearlings onwards). So it stands to reason that they get used to it early on. But there are racehorses that are really difficult to get to the gallops and I've seen some impressive near-misses at the road crossings, even with the kind of well-educated horse friendly traffic you get in a town like Newmarket.
To be devil's advocate here, if you buy a horse bred for and bought for the purpose of going round a school and that is what you and the horse know and enjoy, then why would you put yourself through the unenjoyable and often hazardous process of going out hacking when neither you or the horse really wants to do it. Carl Hester hacks out which is lovely but I get the impression that he has an enviable amount of off-road hacking at his yard, which makes it a calmer and safer experience. If he had to hack up a major A-road on Uthopia in heavy irate traffic, I think the hacking might get downgraded in priority! If you place a high value on hacking as a mental let-down for horses, then you might persevere. Plus the fact that dressage horses can be and are often expensive, that 'risk-benefit' equation is stacked in favour of not hacking.
Incidentally, has anyone ever seen or taken a top dressage horse out hunting?! I'm just curious if it resulted in major melt-down or whether the horse enjoyed itself!
To be devil's advocate here, if you buy a horse bred for and bought for the purpose of going round a school and that is what you and the horse know and enjoy, then why would you put yourself through the unenjoyable and often hazardous process of going out hacking when neither you or the horse really wants to do it. Carl Hester hacks out which is lovely but I get the impression that he has an enviable amount of off-road hacking at his yard, which makes it a calmer and safer experience. If he had to hack up a major A-road on Uthopia in heavy irate traffic, I think the hacking might get downgraded in priority! If you place a high value on hacking as a mental let-down for horses, then you might persevere. Plus the fact that dressage horses can be and are often expensive, that 'risk-benefit' equation is stacked in favour of not hacking.
Incidentally, has anyone ever seen or taken a top dressage horse out hunting?! I'm just curious if it resulted in major melt-down or whether the horse enjoyed itself!
TheoryX1
Well-Known Member
FB - you are priceless! I am killing myself with laughter and you are just so right.
As I have now decided to re-start dressage with my cob, I guess I must have to totally change my whole way of thinking. The hacking with a mud encrusted horse (apart from head and under saddle, of course), in my baggy, hay and shavings covered fleece, with rather holey breeches and muddy riding boots, will have to end. I shall have to make sure he is pristine, always hogged, pulled tail, buy some bandages to match his saddle cloths and I will have to wear something tidy myself as well, plus make sure I hack in my made to measure Davies Riding Boots (yep, I do possess a pair), and purchase a nice bling browband. Oh god, I dont think I could be bothered with all and can therefore never consider myself a true dressage diva!
As I have now decided to re-start dressage with my cob, I guess I must have to totally change my whole way of thinking. The hacking with a mud encrusted horse (apart from head and under saddle, of course), in my baggy, hay and shavings covered fleece, with rather holey breeches and muddy riding boots, will have to end. I shall have to make sure he is pristine, always hogged, pulled tail, buy some bandages to match his saddle cloths and I will have to wear something tidy myself as well, plus make sure I hack in my made to measure Davies Riding Boots (yep, I do possess a pair), and purchase a nice bling browband. Oh god, I dont think I could be bothered with all and can therefore never consider myself a true dressage diva!
TGM
Well-Known Member
Loving FB's post!
Just wanted to add that whilst I can understand that people might not want to hack out on a confirmed nutter, I do think it is good for young competition horses to learn to hack out from early days if they are temperamentally suited for it. Not every potential competition horse is going to make it to the highest levels, and injury/illness can also intervene along the way, so a horse that can hack in a reasonable manner is much more likely to find an alternative career as a RC horse/all-rounder/happy hacker.
Just wanted to add that whilst I can understand that people might not want to hack out on a confirmed nutter, I do think it is good for young competition horses to learn to hack out from early days if they are temperamentally suited for it. Not every potential competition horse is going to make it to the highest levels, and injury/illness can also intervene along the way, so a horse that can hack in a reasonable manner is much more likely to find an alternative career as a RC horse/all-rounder/happy hacker.
Lolo
Well-Known Member
On a different note, I'm not sure many on here are qualified to comment on 'dressage horses' as aside from a few who've commented here none of us ride true upper-end (advanced medium and beyond, IMO) dressage and therefore have very little idea about what level of sharpness, athleticism and sensitivity is needed to perform these tests... I'm not sure I'd want to be on board when my amazingly talented horse who is very quick, athletic and hyper-sensitive to everything I ask takes a dislike to something!!!
nikkimariet
Well-Known Member
-Cadence-
Well-Known Member
Which is why I'm so lucky with Rossi (I1, so I guess he counts as an athlete
) the other horses I compete not so much! I would only take Ansgar, who I do FEI 6y/o tests with on the trails if I had a death wish!On a different note, the horses that my mother and I 'produce' at home although competing to high levels (3rd and 4th levels, with I think are A/AM) are usually destined for amatuer homes and therefore we try to get them more comfortable on the trails. Chances are these horses will go to homes with more opportunities to take part in such activities, whereas Ansgar was never hacked before he was imported.
Fiona clark
Active Member
Hi there, I used to work at a grandprix dressage yard in West Germany, the horses were never turned out, hacked or jumped. As they were competing at such a high level they were schooled for one hour a day, the first and last five minutes of their schooling was on a long rein, they often exploded for fun but as soon as the contact was picked up they were amazing, taught me loads and to be honest I have never sat on horses like that before or since! I (a few years on) have my own horse and as much as I find hacking dull (after years of taking hacks out with clients), I still make sure she has a couple of hacks thrown in per month, I ride her every second day and she is in at night and out during the day what ever the weather. I recently had a reiki therapist though who told me she would like to jump so I tried her and wow she was right! I will carry on with dressage though but yes .... I think a change is as good as a rest, your horse will let you know if they are fed up x
for fun but as soon as the contact was picked up they were amazing, taught me loads and to be honest I have never sat on horses like that before or since! I (a few years on) have my own horse and as much as I find hacking dull (after years of taking hacks out with clients), I still make sure she has a couple of hacks thrown in per month, I ride her every second day and she is in at night and out during the day what ever the weather. I recently had a reiki therapist though who told me she would like to jump so I tried her and wow she was right! I will carry on with dressage though but yes .... I think a change is as good as a rest, your horse will let you know if they are fed up x
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Also, lets not forget, if you event, you kind of have no choice - you have to hack to get the fitness work in. Do not underestimate the number of people who do this with gritted teeth, possibly draw reins, a friend, and who say they would not bother if they did not event as they quite like their life!
mystiandsunny
Well-Known Member
I only compete at dressage now, but only have two with dressage breeding. Have one TB who hacks like a dream, jumps and dressages; one pony who gives everything a go but is traffic shy due to a bad experience as a foal; one pony who'll do anything you ask her to and is pretty bombproof to hack. One with a fancy dressage sire who is very laid back and safe as houses to hack, and another with fancy dam and sire who is a tad nutty and has taken the best part of a year to hack sensibly with no 'uh oh' moments. She's better off road, but isn't scared of traffic - just oddly painted signs/gates/shadows!!!
They all hack twice a week or thereabouts (weekends). It's fun and they all enjoy it, perking up when we put the hi viz on
They all hack twice a week or thereabouts (weekends). It's fun and they all enjoy it, perking up when we put the hi viz on
millimoo
Well-Known Member
To the poster who asked whether anyone took a Dressage horse hunting.
My mum took her older horse (working adv medium). She just about managed to contain him, but he was pretty close to the edge of bolting. He was the Danish Holstein doing Arab impressions waving his tail vertically like a flag.
He was wired for weeks.... She would never take her younger advanced horse, she values her safety, and he's also the one that's less reliable on a hack too.
My mum took her older horse (working adv medium). She just about managed to contain him, but he was pretty close to the edge of bolting. He was the Danish Holstein doing Arab impressions waving his tail vertically like a flag.
He was wired for weeks.... She would never take her younger advanced horse, she values her safety, and he's also the one that's less reliable on a hack too.
doctordoolittle
Well-Known Member
ahaha FB your post cheered me up!
Pachamama
Well-Known Member
Pachamama
Well-Known Member
The problem is not dressage horses, it's dressage riders. Dressage riders are the epitome of narcissism. Please tell me, what is the point of hacking out if the only person who can see you is the odd farmer driving a tractor?!?
Secondly, dressage riders are completely dependent on mirrors. As far as I know, nobody has yet invented mobile mirrors that you can take along on a hack, allowing you to continuously check your seat and the horse's outline. This clearly makes hacking out unsustainable.
Thirdly, where would we put the Trainer? Most dressage riders are unable to ride without a Trainer, possibly with an accent, sitting on the bench in the corner of the indoor, and a two-way radio system firmly secured on the (patent) boot. To be honest the two-way radio systems cover such a limited distance that they're not really viable on hacks (there clearly is a niche in the market for fake two-way radio systems with pre-recorded messages such as "more flexion", "less angle", "one-two-three, two-two-three, three-two-three" and so forth)
These are just examples, there are plenty more reasons such as the risk of getting mud on your patent Koenigs, the risk of your Swarovski-encrusted gloves/helmet/spurs being struck by lightning in the case of a sudden storm, the risk of your horse's oversized browband being caught in a low branch, etc.etc.etc.
Love. This. Post
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
i think that it very much depends upon individual situations surely rather than just stereotyping? i can imagine that a lot of sharp DR horses are horrible to hack. i used to have lessons on an ex GP horse who had only ever been rideen in an arena- and mainly an indoor one at that and he just did not hack...my SJ trainer also doesn't hack- not because its not valuable but her yard is on a busy main road so its just not safe. she will ride them round the fields and let them have a blast but won't hack out....
i'm sure i read an article where a top eventer (may have been andrew nicholson but i might be wrong) said that he didn't hack because it teachers horses to nap... interesting. personally my horse likes hacking- its in the school that he's badly behaved
i'm sure i read an article where a top eventer (may have been andrew nicholson but i might be wrong) said that he didn't hack because it teachers horses to nap... interesting. personally my horse likes hacking- its in the school that he's badly behaved
sarahhelen1977
Well-Known Member
I never hack my boy - the road that we have to ride up to get to any bridlepaths is dangerous in a car, let alone on a horse. I very occasionally ride him round the field if the ground is good enough, otherwise he works in the school. He only likes being turned out if the weather is nice, and even then only for a short time. And now here's the really crazy part, he is a happy, healthy horse who enjoys his work!!
SusieT
Well-Known Member
The only reason 'dressage horses' find hacking stressful is that they have never been introduced to it properly, as 'dressage riders' (and I use the term loosely-look at Carl Hester's horses who are treated like horses) treat them like porcelain and appear to be nervous hackers in general. IMO all young horses should start out hacking for a month or two before they do any proper work, perhaps dressage horses aren't doing this or they are not hacking for anything more than twice a year as some mentioned above-iin which case it is not wonder they are overexcited..
It is ridculous to think that horses that do well at dressage will not be able to hack like normal horses. That is just poor training or over hyped horses. Don't make it into a drama. Take the horse out hacking everyday for a week, or two and they will start to settle, even if it means boxing to safe hacking.
It is ridculous to think that horses that do well at dressage will not be able to hack like normal horses. That is just poor training or over hyped horses. Don't make it into a drama. Take the horse out hacking everyday for a week, or two and they will start to settle, even if it means boxing to safe hacking.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
'unusual to find a horse confident and happy to hack solo competing as a 'dressage' horse.'
*******s. Straight and simple. If you bothered to train your horses correctly, considering you sell them on and so require them to be saleable, they would be able to hack alone. No wonder you are getting tired of explaining.. It is not a mystic holy grail, something that is actually straightforward to teach to most horses. There are some that won't-but if all your horses don't hack alone you are doing something wrong, to try and suggest it is the discipline is ridiculous.
*******s. Straight and simple. If you bothered to train your horses correctly, considering you sell them on and so require them to be saleable, they would be able to hack alone. No wonder you are getting tired of explaining.. It is not a mystic holy grail, something that is actually straightforward to teach to most horses. There are some that won't-but if all your horses don't hack alone you are doing something wrong, to try and suggest it is the discipline is ridiculous.
imr
Well-Known Member
I do think that in general young horses should learn to hack and if you are producing to sell then you should aim to have them hacking. For most horses like hacking and it gives them a break from the school. And a lot of amateurs want a horse that will hack out as well.
But - it is stupid to hack if there is nowhere safe for you to hack. And its totally pointless and potentially hazardous on a horse which doesn't like it. One thing is trying and persevering and the horse getting the hang of it but there are horses that don't. And imo its dangerous and pointless to persevere with those. Mine both hack out in company and alone (they get used to it) and are both good (as long as no streams etc are involved when they are both terrible) but if I was PS I would do exactly as she has done - hacking CS sounds traumatic for both parties and therefore serves no useful purpose at all.
MMm Horses are like people, they are all different, so what suits one doesn't always suit another.....
But - it is stupid to hack if there is nowhere safe for you to hack. And its totally pointless and potentially hazardous on a horse which doesn't like it. One thing is trying and persevering and the horse getting the hang of it but there are horses that don't. And imo its dangerous and pointless to persevere with those. Mine both hack out in company and alone (they get used to it) and are both good (as long as no streams etc are involved when they are both terrible) but if I was PS I would do exactly as she has done - hacking CS sounds traumatic for both parties and therefore serves no useful purpose at all.
MMm Horses are like people, they are all different, so what suits one doesn't always suit another.....
rachel_s
Well-Known Member
Taken from wikipedia as I can't find the quote which I'm thinking of
[Dressage] Its fundamental purpose is to develop, through standardized progressive training methods, a horse's natural athletic ability and willingness to perform, thereby maximizing its potential as a riding horse. At the peak of a dressage horse's gymnastic development, the horse will respond smoothly to a skilled rider's minimal aids. The rider will be relaxed and appear effort-free while the horse willingly performs the requested movement.
So if the point of dressage is to have a horse which will willingly perform - surely this applies to all settings, not just an arena?
I understand the sharpness/ ability explanation to a certain extent but think that is far more about the communication of the aids (the driving a formula 1 car vs old banger) - but surely obedience and willingness to work for the rider no matter what is also a key factor in dressage and therefore horses should be able to hack out for this reason.
[Dressage] Its fundamental purpose is to develop, through standardized progressive training methods, a horse's natural athletic ability and willingness to perform, thereby maximizing its potential as a riding horse. At the peak of a dressage horse's gymnastic development, the horse will respond smoothly to a skilled rider's minimal aids. The rider will be relaxed and appear effort-free while the horse willingly performs the requested movement.
So if the point of dressage is to have a horse which will willingly perform - surely this applies to all settings, not just an arena?
I understand the sharpness/ ability explanation to a certain extent but think that is far more about the communication of the aids (the driving a formula 1 car vs old banger) - but surely obedience and willingness to work for the rider no matter what is also a key factor in dressage and therefore horses should be able to hack out for this reason.
Thistle
Well-Known Member
We have just come back from a fun outing!
B went over to jump a friends dressage horse that is competing med. He also hunts, does XC and fun rides (did Burghley ride last week) is doing 2 Med tests on Sun and is off to the beach for the week next week. He has also done some showing. He does hack but very carefully as he is dodgy in traffic (think he may have had an accident, has some scars)
This true allrounder is a 14hh very hairy cob.
In the snow they put a lunge line round his chest and through his stirups and used him to pull a sledge round the field in trot. This was a week before he went to the regionals, where he qualified for the Nationals.
I know he is exceptional, but I think he is so good because as a youngster he did a bit of everything and has never been wrapped in cotton wool.
B went over to jump a friends dressage horse that is competing med. He also hunts, does XC and fun rides (did Burghley ride last week) is doing 2 Med tests on Sun and is off to the beach for the week next week. He has also done some showing. He does hack but very carefully as he is dodgy in traffic (think he may have had an accident, has some scars)
This true allrounder is a 14hh very hairy cob.
In the snow they put a lunge line round his chest and through his stirups and used him to pull a sledge round the field in trot. This was a week before he went to the regionals, where he qualified for the Nationals.
I know he is exceptional, but I think he is so good because as a youngster he did a bit of everything and has never been wrapped in cotton wool.
Pachamama
Well-Known Member
My horse is an ex-racer who only knew how to go out in a string. Took a bit of effort (about 10-15 days) to get her used to going out on her own, but we got there. I must be a super-gifted rider if I can achieve what so many 'proper' dressage riders can't
And YES, I am taking the p!ss
And YES, I am taking the p!ss
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Yep, this one:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avhYukjLB4A
Not sure if he was ever classed as a 'top' horse, but he hacked regularly, alone and in bigish groups (there'd be about six of us and we'd have a good gallop through the stubble fields too!), jumped regularly and hunted with Brugs' brother. He loved it and was a very good boy!
I have also hunted with Brian Hutton who was once mounted on one of Pammy's warmblood dressage horses who was also very well behaved.
So there!
Amaretto
Well-Known Member
My dutch boy has been hacked since a just backed 4y/o. Whilst he can be sharp and a bit spooky when schooling, he is fantastic to hack. Added bonus that it is great for warming up and cooling down before/after schooling. Laura B's horses hack out, as do Carl's & Charlotte's.....
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
Just remembered I have some photos of my dressage horse jumping out hacking:
Doing his normal job:
But I'm lucky, he enjoys it. I wouldn't force it if a horse doesn't like it, but would try to teach them to where possible.
Doing his normal job:
But I'm lucky, he enjoys it. I wouldn't force it if a horse doesn't like it, but would try to teach them to where possible.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I do think there is a difference, too, when you're talking about horses on "top" yards where there are a lot of horses to get done in a day, perhaps not many very competent riders available and there has to be some serious risk assessment done on account of what the horses are worth and who is paying for them.
Also, not everyone has safe hacking. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell an owner his 5-figure+ horse ended up under a bus!
Hacking seems to be a religion in this country but it's not necessarily the same everywhere you go. Lots of people in the world either have no hacking or a limited track around a field or similar (but maybe they have more turn out or access to lots of good hay - does that make them "better" systems?) and their horses cope okay. Yes, horses need exposure to different experiences but there are other ways to get that done, too.
Yes, I think it's good for horses to hack but, no, I don't think it's essential to do lots of it, especially if the risks outweigh the benefits. It's just one of those things where people want "their" way to be right and everyone else to be a cruel horse abuser.
Also, not everyone has safe hacking. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell an owner his 5-figure+ horse ended up under a bus!
Hacking seems to be a religion in this country but it's not necessarily the same everywhere you go. Lots of people in the world either have no hacking or a limited track around a field or similar (but maybe they have more turn out or access to lots of good hay - does that make them "better" systems?) and their horses cope okay. Yes, horses need exposure to different experiences but there are other ways to get that done, too.
Yes, I think it's good for horses to hack but, no, I don't think it's essential to do lots of it, especially if the risks outweigh the benefits. It's just one of those things where people want "their" way to be right and everyone else to be a cruel horse abuser.
Mel1
Well-Known Member
may I say that I find this discussion very interesting,
in the summer edition of "Rider" 2011, there is an article about Carl Hester (page 35-37)
i quote: "Carl is adamant that his horses are allowed to be horses whatever their values explaining: " I don't see any benefit in keeping them in all the time, as it is not good for them mentally or physically" ....
"I either school them or they go for a hack". he adds: "I like to add a variety to the horses' work programme so we try to include hill work and vary the pace out hacking as well - sometimes we'll take them out for a few long canter to build up their stamina, other times they might go for a walk around the block to strengthen tendons and muscles. Not only that, but I think it is important that the horses get to see as many different sights and sounds as possible because this builds up their confidence."
but I mean who is HE really to contradict us expert on this forum?? plus I'm sure all his horses are easy and happy hacker not really worth that much...
I think his career and results speaks for themselves
in the summer edition of "Rider" 2011, there is an article about Carl Hester (page 35-37)
i quote: "Carl is adamant that his horses are allowed to be horses whatever their values explaining: " I don't see any benefit in keeping them in all the time, as it is not good for them mentally or physically" ....
"I either school them or they go for a hack". he adds: "I like to add a variety to the horses' work programme so we try to include hill work and vary the pace out hacking as well - sometimes we'll take them out for a few long canter to build up their stamina, other times they might go for a walk around the block to strengthen tendons and muscles. Not only that, but I think it is important that the horses get to see as many different sights and sounds as possible because this builds up their confidence."
but I mean who is HE really to contradict us expert on this forum?? plus I'm sure all his horses are easy and happy hacker not really worth that much...
I think his career and results speaks for themselves
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I think this is very very true. At the end of the day, in general, 'top' horses are very valuable animals with a very specific purpose. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and keep them in as nice/natural/varied environment as possible but the reality is it is often too risky and impractical.
I am very 'pro' hacking and variety. But then I am a one horse owner who in reality will only be average at best.
I love the cob Thistle is talking about, that must be some horse.
I was also chatting to a friend at the weekend. She did junior british event teams and has also ridden advanced She has a stallion who is gorgous and an overgrown pet! In addition to eventing him and doing dressage to national level, he also goes out hunting and does a bit of stick & ball at home!
Worried1
Well-Known Member
Given this is just an informal debate your response is needlessly aggresive.
We don't sell our horses on, we produce them for ourselves, the horse being sold is an exceptional case on behalf of a client.
Now if you think you can 'train' my horses to hack pleasantly on their on OWN while dealing with our surrounding environment then I would be very interested in your strategies; because as a former event rider who evented to a decent level in the days before intro and pre novice, Mr Worried knows all about the importance of hacking both in company and solo.
maresmaid
Well-Known Member
I bought a young horse earlier this year, I like to keep my horses to the end of their days and i chose this mare very carefully because I wanted a good competition horse for the next 10 years or so, with the possibility of switching to an "Old Ladies Hack" in later life. She is starting her career as a dressage horse, but she hacks regularly, both in company and on her own. We don't have much access to bridleways but the slow road work that we can do up and down hills is beneficial to muscle development as well as assisting mental wellbeing and I consider it an integral part of her routine. She also lives out 24/7 in summer and is turned out for 4 or 5 hours daily in the winter time.