OK "Getting your horse in an outline" question

[Weezy]

After seeing the lovely photos of Layla with Cazcrazyjonty and noting that Joella has stated that she has struggled for months to get a pleasing outline from her horse (I am using outline just because that is what it is generally refered to - what I mean is working through over the back and into the hand) How DO you ride your horse forward into your hand?

Some people kick, some people niggle with the reins, some people squeeze, some people saw - some hold onto the front end to give the image, some people dont care what the head is doing so long as the leg is coming underneath

So my question is - how do YOU ride your horse? How much pressure do you put on, where do you ride from in your seat/thigh/leg? Do you release once its there or do you hold? What do you do with your hand?

VERY curious of Oxon!

 

[I_A_P]

i have to push her foward very much from my lower leg, and squeeze the contact, i also do a lot of bending warming up, really egttin her to bend her neck whcih can make her a lot softer..however my mare is not very eay at all and am realy struggling also..

 

[Skhosu]

I am not a very good rider. I have a very good horse who generallly works in an outline. He is forward going so I just Pick up a contact and sort of squeeze him into it. I always lighten instantly when he is working, and he's so good I have to do very little!
On my pony (giraffe-man!) I have to squeeze w/ the inside rein, just sort of flex him (not sawing though...hate that) and that brings him down.
I actually found that teaching him to bow helped him come onto an outline, perhaps he had a stiff back?

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

I have struggled with this question forever with rock as whenever i try and get him in an outline he leans against my hand! When i warm up i do LOTS of bending and tiny circles using JUST my leg on a loose rein but seirously, im going to be reading these answers as im at my wits end!

 

[Weezy]

I find it facinating Kayleigh hence me asking!

OK, one other thing (to everyone) - HOW hard do you squeeze, kick, niggle, etc

 

[JoBo]

Well here’s what I do-
Keep a reasonable contact on the reins but not overly tight while squeezing with the leg. Otto generally just lowers into an ‘outline’ when I keep my hands consistent (which I really struggle with in trot as my right hand has a mind of it’s own). But if I need a little communication then it’s a squeezing motion (like a squeeze ball) or if he is leaning a slight up movement.
It has taken me a year though to really get it all together. Otto has a very large shoulder and easy falls onto the forehand therefore we keep him in a slightly higher outline then would be needed for a Prelim test. Does that make sense?

Why I ask Henryhorn was that I was wondering whether breeding makes a difference to whether a horse has a more natural outline or whether every horse has to be work on?

 

[S_N]

Leg to move the horse forwards properly, keeping the leg on, but not overly so - the horse should be dong the work, not me - and a shimmy down the reins when necessary to remind the horse that an out line is desirable. Once I got the knack, I found it very easy to ride a horse in an outline, I just got on and expected co-operation. However, then I went to the US and put on a ton(ne) of weight and came back and found riding properly was MUCH more hard work than it had previously been. Now I have nowt to ride though........

 

[LauraBR]

With my current horse I can sit up, put my leg on and jiggle my hands- he drops- BUT he's not working properly from behind, he's fibbing!

To get him in a proper outline I have to get him moving forwards with plenty of energy, sit properly in the saddle, balanced... and he works in a lovely outline- head not as bent as the 'fibbing' outline but he's working from being through his back.

 

[JoBo]

It depends, sometimes I do have to give a little kick just to say 'right mate listen' but most of the time it's a light squeeze. All communication down the rein are small movements but if something isn't working then we tend to try something else rather then keep nagging at him. Goad, this is hard to put into words!

 

[Lucy_Ally]

It will be interesting to see everyone's ideas on this!

Ok here is how me and my intructor are doing it with Spring:

Spring has a habit of dropping behind the vertical as she has most probably been ridden in draw reins in the past so I started with virtually no contact to teach her to balance herself. When we felt that she was doing this ok I was able to take up a light contact and generally don't worry about where her head is for the time being. Springy will really step under from behind when asked, I do this by "holding" onto her sides with my lower leg using gentle squeezes to maintain tempo and rhythm. I try to keep my lower leg back behind the girth (although I do struggle with this from time to time!) and give light but consistent and even rein pressure. I keep my seat light and use it more for turning her and adjusting speed and halting. She will show flashes now of a super trot - rounding her back and neck and stepping under and through from behind. Sometimes I have the temptation to fiddle or pull at her to get her head down, but my instructors words ring in my ears! She says that by pulling at one end and pushing at the other is like bending a dressage whip - as soon as you let go of either end it will pop out flat! It is hard though when she is pottering around like a giraffe and I know some people look at me as if to say get her bloody head in, but I am working for the long term with her rather than a quick fix, and her willingness to learn and listen means that she's picking things up fast.

Oops sorry this turned into a ramble!

Oh forgot to say, I work on lots of transitions and riding "squares" to get her hindlegs under her and engage her hind-quarters.

Will stop rambling now I promise

 

[Weezy]

Makes total sense

[ QUOTE ]

Why I ask Henryhorn was that I was wondering whether breeding makes a difference to whether a horse has a more natural outline or whether every horse has to be work on?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think breeding makes a TON of difference - take Andys (which really is the only breed I have ever done anything dressage like on) they have a very natural outline - you work more on getting them stepping underneath than bothering with head carriage - therefore I find I can make a horse work from behind well but I do sometimes struggle with the head carriage as I have really never had to persuade a horse to do this - back round, head down is usual for me, but it seems that different breeds throw all manner of different probs at you!

 

[Skhosu]

on the horse, not very hard at all. IIn fact, I just have to think!
On the uncooperative pony, not hard in walk or trot as he is getting better but have to squeeze hard in canter w/ legs and hands so not overly working on it as I don't like doing it and he'll never be a dressage pony!
( in saying that..the excitement of an event puts him on his toes and he must LOOK like he's in an outline as half the time he wins the class (maybe cos he's bootiful!)

 

[Weezy]

No not a ramble at all - everything you and your instructor have said rings true with me - I dont really care where the head is so long as the horse is working from behind!

 

[JoBo]

Umm, interesting! I'll carry on blaming Otto's confirmation and poor breeding for all our problems then!

But hey we can still get over 60% in a Novice on a good day so can't be doing to bad, well what I consider not to be too bad anyway!

 

[teapot]

Not my own horse but only ride a mixture of 2, poss 3 depending on what sort of lesson I'm having.

I tend to really work on the back end, getting them to push themselves forward, lots of leg yield, spiralling in and out to engage the hind quarters, whilst having just a normal even contact.

Once they're beginning to actually push themselves, rather than drag I pick up more of a contact and ask for more impulsion. I don't niggle, move hands outwards/inwards as I've always been taught to ride from behind and and just have a slightly firmer contact.

Probs doesn't make sense but it does for me. But have been taught always work from the back to the front, never ever use your hands by niggling or whatever. And if I have done, I've been shouted at

And an exercise I did a couple of months ago was we wern't allowed a have a contact at all - loose rein in the trot on a 20m circle. Then we'd have to pick contact for say half the circle, then back to a loose rein- was another way

 

[moodymare1987]

my horse is forward going to an extent. but i do use my leg to get that lift from back end to front. i am quite light handed anyway but i just have enough contact to feel his mouth. as i hate the fact that some riders cling on to their horses mouths and saw to get an outline, as they dont know how to ride them into it.

im not saying the way i ride is the way you are suposed to do it but this works for my horse. and i dont see it as riding incorrectly as im not hurting the horse. xxx

i tried to make that sound as nice as possible without contradicting myself xx

 

[Molineux]

When I first got Wolf I used to play with his reins, however I did that as it worked on all my other horses!! Did not work with him AT ALL!! Wolf was just a nutty TB who used to get very upset when I asked for any movement as he was a born jumper not a dressage horse (SO HE THOUGHT!).

Then I started having lessons with Jo Aston, she watched me ride him first, then gave me her thoughts and got on him so she could get a feel from him.
Wolf was a very tense horse, so Jo squeezed and squeezed (In which she has very long legs!) he hated it to start with and bucked and bucked however after about 20 mins of walking with this action, his walk was forward and his head was down.
So then I got on did the same, I could belive the difference in him. With regards to my reins I had to keep a contact with Wolf all the time, if I was to give him a rein he would would take the piss and not work.. But by me squeezing and keeping a contact I could really feel him working.

If I had little contact with his mouth, then went to canter in which I would take more rein he used to shoot forward (Hence why now I always keep that contact).

 

[Sal_E]

Haven't got the energy to write a big reply, seriously flagging now (not been well all day, didn't even make it to the stables - no sympathy needed, totally self-inflicted...)

In a nutshell though, if you can get the horse working 'through' properly, stepping under & loose through the back, the outline should sort itself out - take up a contact & they work in to it... Always more leg than hand, although personally I think my leg is a bit weak.

 

[monica123]

well oakey is naturaly very forward going, its keeping her steady but keeping the impulsion, today, was the first time she worked 'properly' since i got her (about 3 weeks) as she is really only just settling properly, but i kept my leg firmly on the girth, kpt my hnds light, but not to high or far forward and just gave the occasional squeeze and she just went into a lovely outline!

was very pleased!

 

[Santa_Claus]

I ride each horse differently according to their confirmation, schooling level and natural balance. Overall though my aim is to ride them forward from my lower leg into my hand. If starting with a horse as a youngster it is rare that this doesn't come naturally, but with some I have reschooled Occasionally I have needed to be a bit more forceful for a short time to 'show them the way'. But forward is always my first and biggest want from the horse.

Pressure on the rein again depends on the horse, Fleur is extremely light though I still carry a good contact especially in my outside hand whereas Dan if you allow him is like a freight train pulling on your arms, with careful considerate riding once you have him off the forehand he will pull less but I definetly have to have a far more significant contact on him than I do with Fleur.

Because I have had the oppourtunity to ride so many different horses I generally find I can get 'most' (not all!) horses working round and into the contact for short but consistent periods within the first session. These periods may be for 30 seconds or 5 minutes it depends on the horse but generally it can be done!

Katie

 

[loopeepee]

Humm,

Ive always been taught to push your horse into one, and not pull. Therefore after warming up - loose rein walk trot and canter (out of the saddle), lots of circles bending, leg yields so its listening etc - I will slowly pick the horse up. Using my seat and legs making the horse stretch over its back and quarters - sometimes I may go for the whole 'long and low' approach for a while too. I was sometimes taught to 'shake the coffee beans' - basically wiggle your fourth finger occasionally to 'get the attention'. Ive also found this really works if your horse has taken a hold and wont soften.
If its not happening, I have learnt through loosing my temper that thats not going to help one iota - even though it sure as hell feels better at the time. Therefore I have to stop, loosen the rein, think what im doing wrong and start again. 9 times out of 10, its me thats gone wrong/not asking clearly.
Whats the best feeling is when it all comes together, and those legs come underneath you and that power - mmm yummy!
I also have to keep a very conscious effort to remember not to slough my shoulders or collapse my left hip and tilt to the left because of it.
But thats just me!!

 

[MillionDollar]

Im so glad you've asked this question ts such a help!

 

[LEC]

I pull on one rein then the other heaving away to get my horse in an outline. I try not to use too much leg as this makes us go faster and then hold my hands really low to also help go in an outline. If I am feeling really lazy I use draw reins.

 

[Weezy]

WOOOOO an honest answer

 

[anniedoherty]

I've not had my horse long and haven't actually ridden him for the last few weeks as I've hurt my back, but he seems to go into an outline really well without much effort on my part. In fact the lightest of contacts seems to bring him into an outline, unlike my old pony who needed a much firmer contact to start with before he would start working in a proper outline. He used to "pretend" to be in an outline which looked ok but he wasn't working through properly until he'd warmed up.

The new boy has a much better topline and I hope that he will still work as well when I finally get back to riding him in a few weeks (hopefully). He's not perfect as he sometimes lifts his head and shakes it too, but if I keep the contact very light he seems to just naturally drop into an outline and he has been tracking up well and working from behind right from the start of our schooling sessions.

 

[Allykat]

What a facinating question!!!

I start Joe off on the buckle pushing him forwards with my leg. We do lots of transitions through halt walk and trot lots of bending, circles, rein changes etc before moving on to canter. Once he is warmed up and working loose I take up the contact. I too have trouble keeping my hands constant as they do tend to have a mind of their own, but in theory I will keep my contact firm and still and use my legs to push him into the contact. Again we will work on transitions to make sure he is really stepping under.

In short its really a consistant contact on both reins and lots of impulsion with plenty of half halts!

 

[Tierra]

Hmm interesting question and heres my take on it I guess...

For me the outline isnt the immediate aim, its the end product of everything else coming together. For many, many years I was taught to niddle with the mouth and various other techniques all of which, in my opinion, come undone at some point or the other.

I do a lot of warming up in walk. During this time, Im not fussed about what the head is doing, but I dont use an overly loose contact. I spend a lot of time doing leg yields, shoulder in and half pass to try and get the horse interested and flexing. My contact is firm but forgiving. I dont "fiddle" at all with my hand, I hold a firm contact and if the horse offers in the slightest, i soften my hand forwards very, very slightly (gotta be careful with this term.. as i tend to think it encourages people to almost throw their rein at the horse which then just drops him back onto his forhand.)

I use a lot of leg in the walk and use my seat a hell of a lot, the aim is to push the horse into the bridle, not drag it down onto the hand.. that wont make him work over his back.

A true outline with true collection will feel light and the horse will be carrying himself. I try to keep that image and feeling in my mind and keep pushing for that. Primarily, that requires the horse be working forwards. Sawing on their mouths just makes them drop their heads, tip onto their forhands and leave their quarters 3 miles behind.

By the end of 15 minutes walk work, I expect the horse to be feeling quite collected and with a reasonable amount of self carriage.

I move to canter before the trot work as this is the pace I find easiest to collect in (unless im using sitting trot, but i dont do this before a period of rising trot). In the canter work, again, I dont fiddle. I ride with quite a short rein (many people ride with far too loose reins) but again its soft... the horse gives, i give. I use a lot of leg and a LOT of seat in canter.. the aim is to be holding the horse from the leg and the back.. not through my hand. Remember we're aiming for lightness.

My horsey, whilst a school master, will tend to start his canter work well above the bit and quite resistant to the hand, even when the walk work has been successful. Ive grown to ignore this and focus on pushing him forwards. I want a nice, forward moving canter.

After the canter is established i take a break and let him stretch. The more he stretches down and out, the happier i am. I usually give him a few minutes of this before picking him up again for the trot work... this, for me at least, is the hardest gait.

Again, i dont fiddle, I choose a rein length and i hold it. If the horse gives, i give but I wont alter my rein length.. I like to mentally say to the horse "this is your rein, im not going to pull or yank but in return, you work into it". Trot for me requires a LOT of leg. As soon as the horse starts to soften, i switch to sitting trot because i find it much much easier to gather more collection from here. Its important not to do this too early though as the horse should be working somewhat through it's back before you start sitting work. Sitting trot is easier for me because I gain full use of my seat again.

It's taken me a long time to "click" on outline work but ive finally found a philosophy that does work for me and doesnt require I saw about on their mouths which is something I despise. Its only quite recently also that ive found the benefit of using my seat more. I always had a tendency to perch which forced my hands lower (losing the bend in the elbow). If you then saw on the horses mouth as well it's extremely painful for them.

You need to be sitting well and constantly think to yourself that the horse needs to set itself up around you. This requires that you sit correctly (weight evenly between two seat bones and pubic bone) with nice soft elbows. I find its very very easy for the horse to drag my hand forward and thats when it seems tempting to start the sawing business. I really have to concentrate in keeping my elbows by my side, my hands "giving" but firm and then just focus on pushing the horse up into his bridle.

I also find that doing it this way (i.e. pushing up and not pulling down) creates a much more true outline with the horse sat back on its haunches and the poll as the highest point. If you drag the mouth down by the hands, the outline tends to break at the veterbrae on the neck which isnt correct at all. Also, if you were to give the contact forward when the horse was working like this, it would drop forward onto it's forehand and the head would go. I want my horse to be in a place where, if i gave my contact so the rein was rather loose (but not gone), the horse would be collected enough that it wouldnt just "flop".

Thats my general feeling on the whole matter.. I could probably rant forever on this topic and not make much sense. The only final thing I can think of is that i praise a lot. Im not soft with my horse, i ride with spurs everyday and i carry a schooling whip because I expect him to move off my leg when i say. If he doesnt, he'll be asked more firmly. My horse is rather lazy but by the end of the schooling, i expect him to feel buzzy.. and he does if ive done my job right! But when he does something i right, he knows, Im very very vocal, use his name a lot and make sure he can hear the tone in my voice. My horse needs a lot of praise to keep his confidence up and i firmly believe this makes him work better!

 

[Santa_Claus]

makes perfect sense to me and a very good answer to the question asked. I couldn't be bothered to write such a detailed answer. LOL

I agree totally that a rider shouldn't sit to the trot until the horse is swinging forward through its back but personally I prefer to use trot work before going to the canter but in saying that I don't ask for any roundness from Fleur until she has walked, trotted and cantered on both reins in a forward manner, she needs at least 10-15 mins of flexing and moving forward in all 3 paces before I can ask her to round and soften into the contact.

 

[Governor]

I never asked for any sort of outline from Governor for the first year I had him (beware here come the pics...yes i'm aware i'm riding like a sack of s**t in them too) not because he has any major issues with a contact, just that I do things my own way (not uniquely mine but either way...).

Gradually he started working long and low and since then i've started to bring him back up.

As for the actual how do I get him in an outline...I get on, take up a soft but taut contact and ask him to work into it. He knows the drill really but I don't take up a contact taut enough to produce a 'proper' outline until he's really working off my leg, working over his back and picking up his feet. If he's being particularly pig headed i'll use a little bit of movement down the reins - normally very gentle sponging, but he's quite pliable and I can pretty much change his outline by seat and legs e.g. push him into a long and low outline.

Sorry if i've written aload of rubbish...half asleep now.

 

[4whitesocks]

Great question

am only starting to ask for him to work in an outline now (he's backed a year, only had him since April and we had a lot of problems with his one-sidedness & balance/transitions etc.)- we've established our transitions, he's working relatively well off my leg and has a lovely active walk but in trot and canter, head goes up and contact just makes him shorten his neck....

we'll get there - eventually!!