OK "Getting your horse in an outline" question

[darksided]

Well I only ride once a week (a different horse usually each week at the riding school) but I just try to ride forwards into a secure yet sympathetic contact. That's what I TRY to do.
Obviously this doesn't have a very immediate effect on a riding school horse, who is ridden by a huge variety of rider of different levels. So it usually takes the lesson and then at the end they're going properly.
However, my new instructor really pressures us into getting the horses "rounder" right from the beginning, aand even though I'm trying really hard, and doing what I feel is correct, she insists that the horse goes rounder that instant.
So recently I've got into the terrible old habits of leaning forward and holding ym hands low and wide and "fiddling" too much, just as a quick fix

The instructor comments on how our horses need to go rounder, yet she doesn't correct us when we go back to these bad habits, and she doesn't seem to notice that the horses are all moving their heads from side to side.
Think I might move lessons lol
Sorry bout the rant

 

[TGM]

One thing that I have found is that if I get my position right then the horse becomes much softer automatically. With Sprite I find that once I have her going forward (which is sometimes easier said than done), she will become round without needing any niggling or squeezing of the reins. Although I will squeeze the rein to regain her attention if she gets distracted by something.

 

[Parkranger]

I think firstly all horses are different so it's hard to say - I use my lower leg and wrap round and 'pull him up' so to speak - I also niggle on the reins very lightly but find that he goes up and under with the correct leg movements (slightly back behind the girth).

Also gets a tickle with the schooling whip to keep the impulsion occasionally......

 

[H's mum]

Tierra ... I couldn't have put it better!!!!
Kate x

 

[Bossanova]

Well you've seen me ride, I perhaps dont ride to get a horse on the bit 'conventially' which is a large part of my downfall I think in competitive dressage. I expect my horse to balance himself and take the rein, I hate riding anything that relies on the hand or that you have to be firm with on the rein.

 

[H's mum]

From what I've been taught - putting your horse on the bit is a long and complicated affair - especially when you get taught lots of different ways!

For instance - if your horse is "blocking" you - then you need to unblock it - and it's finding out where the horse is blocking you that's the fun part! LOL! - The horse needs to be supple through it's back in order to be able to engage it's hind legs effectively - so that would mean moving the horse's back beneath your seat to encourage bend and suppleness... the horse will then naturally drop onto the bit as it's hind legs become engaged and it's back softer - Then there's the horse that sets it's jaw/fixes it's neck - and sometimes no amount of pushing from behind will get this horse to give - this is when using an outside rein in a lower (side rein like position) helps - using the inside rein in a soft, upward motion to encourage yielding through the poll and then pushing with your inside leg to leg yield up into the outside (side-rein) rein - Some people mistake this for sawing/fidding - it's not the case - sometimes you have to explain to the horse what is required - So... there's a million different ways and lots of different methods and reasoning -

The most effective way I find is when you're correctly aligned and your horse is able to work correctly beneath you! Hold a steady but firm contact, brace yourself/bear down/use a force that will compare to the force you expect from the horses hind leg - and kick your horse up into the contact - don't squeeze with the lower leg - use a sharp short kick - the effort comes from the body, the hips and the thighs! Until you get used to it does feel like hard work but then it becomes second nature -

If your horse backs off and drops away from being in front of your leg - kick him up into the contact again - send him forward - but not so he's running -he's got accept the contact and work in the given outline/space that you require!

Kate x

 

[fairhill]

It depends on the horse with me.

Meg has been very relectant to take a contact and go into the bridle. With her I have a soft, but consistent contact, and concentrate on sending her forwards. When she's going forwards properly, I find that the outline just comes with out any fiddling or messing, and it's a good way of checking that's she's working from behind.

Chloe will never take a contact of her own accord, even when working correctly from behind. I do lots of transitions, quite often I'll halt her, put legs on, and keep the rein contact. Lots of 10 m circles in walk, leg yielding, and shoulder in to get her off her forehand. I don't attempt to trot until she's softened in the mouth in walk. I normally work her in sitting trot as it helps with the collection and keeping her 'together', and will only rise if I need to extend her strides and open her up.

 

[Greyhound]

Thankfully S is well schooled but we have still had out teething problems.

I firstly warm up, making sure we have a good walk which is nice and rythmic. Ill then check my girth and from there I ask for the contact. I have to be relaxed for this to work so I am not blocking the forward movement. I will take up the contact and apply a light pressure with my legs. If she raises her head, I will squeeze the reins like you would squeeze a sponge and apply some leg pressure, when she relaxes I relax the contact - not too much that it all gets lost.

We have now got to the stage where we can walk and trot in an outline, cantering is a little bit sticky as she is still balancing me on occasions. Also she can be a little cheeky and try and trolly dash off with me when she is feeling energetic lol

Hope that makes sense

Gh

ETS I always have to make sure I am carrying my hands correctly, I imagine I am carrying two hot cups of tea that I dont want to spill - I have found that works well

 

[druid]

Sparks - Take up a contact when she's moving actively and she'll round her back. That's all

But I cheated and had her schooled by a "proper" dressage rider so she knows that a contact=outline and if I drop the contact she'll strech straight down into.

Bob - typical show pony, gentle squeeze with outside leg only and an elastic contact with quite high hands.

Max - have you seen his neck?

there's no chance he could ever work "on the bit" but he does round his back and step under if you get him moving forward actively.

 

[KatB]

Yep agree body position has a massive effect on how the horse goes!!

I was always taught to get a horse round through lots of leg, and half halts to contain the energy. However, this quite often ended up witha false outline, and an obsession with a "round" horse.

With my last trainer, he showed me how my posture has an effect on the horses way of going, so by keeping my shoulders open and square, with an "upright" position, and then taking a soft steady contact, just "holding" the bit in their mouth with NO movement, if your shoulders are open you'll naturally keep soft through your arms and shoulders, then you use your leg to push them into the contact. If they come above the contact, use more leg, until they learn that when they are going forward and into a soft contact, they dont get hassled! This is how my horse has been taught from day1, and he has a consistant head carriage and is naturally forward. Just unfortunate can be knackering when having an arguement and nedd LOADS of leg!!

 

[Tierra]

Echo what H's mum said - its a very complicated affair. The problem is (in my opinion) is that a lot of people use quick fixes which tends to put pressure on others to use quick fixes... Also, the standard of teaching these days varies enormously

Even good trainers often neglect to tell people how things should "feel". I know its hard to explain what people should be feeling, but i think its important to distinguish between the horse working through correctly, and thus being light and having its head down but being on the forhand and heavy in the hand. Also why i advocate the use of school masters for people to be able to experience that feeling as they tend to remember it for a long time then.

I also find it quite interesting that most people are taught that they have to carry their hands very low and wide to encourage an outline and that keeping their hands up will make the horse hollow. 99% of the time, if you sit on a horse at stand still (one who isnt on the bit in any way shape or form) and raise your hands up, an on looker will see the horse sit back slightly in it's haunches. Yet the minute we begin to work, we're so often inclined, or told, that hands need to be kept low (too low!)

 

[tinker512]

With the cob, I barely touch the reins in the first, just get him bloody moving away from my leg(lower leg)!!If that means a few taps of the whip then so be it.Then I can start to ask for him to come together, but I do have to keep my leg on on on, otherwise it is pointless.he is a horse who HAS to work through from behind, theres no 'just an image'.

With all the horses I ride I ask for the same way, with my leg on no matter how forward going the horse is!!And with my hands I pretty much ask the same way, I keep my outside rein consitant and my inside rein is played with abit more, but leg always on.

With the mare I ride as above, but hands higher as thats what she seems to prefer, I do alot more bending with her..

 

[sojeph]

I find that if the horse is comfortable and you are riding sympathetically and correctly that it generally finds a good outline itself!! Then with a combo of light hands (should be able to use your fingertips) and using your leg you can either increase or decrease your collection depending on what level you and your horse are at. Personally I only happy hack or 'play' in the school now so we stick to a basic outline only unless big cobbie is being silly and then we go in 'I'm an arab' outline!!

 

[druid]

I've always been taught to carry my hands "high" in comparison to what I see otehr people doing with hands like side reins!

 

[jes_nibley]

i have real difficulty getting mine to work in an outline, his problem starts with his un-willingness (??) to move forward. if he is forward going and i ask him to work thriough from behind he comes back at me. this is very frustrating, esp as he is very capable of working very well. he thinks he's a stallion so if we see a 'potential girlfriend' or even some 'competition', he's instantly prancing around, looking sunning, working powerfully through his back and very responsive - how do i get this when i ask for it?

we don't have access to a school so all my schooling is done whilst hacking and occassionally in the field.

 

[Rambo]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always been taught to carry my hands "high" in comparison to what I see otehr people doing with hands like side reins!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto !

 

[KatB]

Yes same here. Always have to have a straight line from elbow to bit, in theory anyway!!

 

[vic07]

It think it is all to do with leg and seat. Hands are pretty much irrelevant to correct work. Head should be the last part of the equation for a correct outline. I get them going forwards and then shorten reins and correct outline is there!

Get so p*****d with the standard of flatwork eventing. So many people thinking dressage is all about the head being down. What about the rest of the horse?

 

[Weezy]

Ohh Boss do you think? Personally I think you are one of the nicest riders I have had the pleasure of watching - you are incredibly quiet and your lack of hand is something that I covet!

 

[Weezy]

Thats really well explained Tierra!

 

[kirstyfk]

My friend did her dissertation oabout dressage marks in relation to free walk and found out that judges spend most of their time looking at the horses head and that if the horse had a much greater increase in step it didn't matter also the better mark are given to horses whose head stays down!

I know it is wrong but if that is what judges are giving marks for then riders are going to try and do whatever to please the judge!

 

[Weezy]

Thanks everyone (sorry I cant answer you all but have to get on!) I do find it interesting - obv everyone "knows" what they SHOULD be doing and the mechanics of it all, but I do see a hell of a lot of people that truely believe that bringing the head down is of the utmost importance and then they may or may not start kicking the horse forward into the hand, only then the hand is fixed, the neck is fixed and I dont believe the horse can possibly correctly work through!

I do find it hard work to kick a horse up and in to my hand (I try and get away with riding through seat and thigh only) as, more often than not, to acheive this I have to draw my lower leg up due to the length of my legs

Its not an excuse, its just something I have trouble with, hence I find it relatively easy to ride a deep barrelled horse up into a contact but I do not find it so easy with a smaller horse (unless I ride with shorter than optimum stirrups!) Long and low however I find easier

Thanks for everyones contributions, I do find it facinating (tho I have seen a distinct lack of people admitting they DO ride with a firm hand

)

 

[Tempi]

every horse is different, how some people ride their horse into an outline wont work for other horses.

i personall ride from my seat and inner thigh - Bloss is very hard work and is long in the back so to keep her through behind i squeeze her up with my inner thigh and into my contact, which is constantly little squeezes down the reins. When she relaxs into my contact and is working wel she is rewarded with a little pat from my inside hand and a slight give of the inside rein.

Once she is working through into the contact and warmed up well (during the warmup i do lots of leg yielding, pirouettes, shoulder in/shoulder fore, travers/renvers etc) then she is soft and through from behind and in self carriage - i then dont need to keep squeezing down the reins as she will be carrying herself properly. Obviously occasionaly you need to give squeezes down the rein, but once warmed up i find with bloss the focus needs to be on getting her hindleg through - which i do by again useing my inner thigh and tickling her with the stick on top of her croup.

my pet hate is watching people kicking and sawing at their horses to get them 'on the bit'..............

 

[Tierra]

I DID ride with a firm hand. Until I got a rather nasty wake up call.

I was taught classically in my early teens and was always confident with the way i was riding. I took a break in my early 20s when i went abroad, came back, bought a dressage school master and found a good dressage trainer. Im not sure if the problem occured through me misunderstanding her, or through my frustration to get the horse into an outline, but i was riding far too much with my hand. This did work short term. However, we came rather unstuck when one day, my generally beautiful and generous horsey decided enough was enough and refused to take any kind of contact in his mouth. He'd hollow and not just work above the bit, he'd snatch very very violently at the reins if i took up any sort of rein contact. I honestly and truely thought id completly f****d up my horse.

It took me months to undo the damage id caused through ignorance. It was very much a case of a little knowledge being so very dangerous.

After that I went back to my classical roots... decided to stick a finger up at anyone who looked down on me for working my horse that way and not accepting that it can take a while for him to come round when im schooling. But when he does, its because he's working properly and not because he's run deep onto his forehand or is tied down with either gadgets or a strong hand.

I now leave the mouth alone pretty much and, as a few other people have said above, i ride with a much higher hand position than a lot of people you see. Most days i will get on now and my horse is in an outline in walk with zero fuss and no "settling down to it". The only way that ever happens is from the horse trusting the hand and they only do that if people done snatch at them. He still takes time to come round in trot and canter though

Hoping this will come in time.

 

[TGM]

I think it depends on the horse too - Sprite doesn't need a 'firm hand', once she is forward you take up the contact and she softens. Horses that are not accustomed to working on the bit, and particularly those that tend to go on the forehand may need a firmer contact. My daughter's pony is built rather downhill and I don't think has ever been properly schooled on the flat (she is now 16). With her we take a firm outside rein, put her on a circle and use the inside rein to ask for bend. To start with there is a very heavy feel on the outside rein, but then she gets the idea and softens in her mouth and starts to work through her back.

The ideal situation is to have a horse which softens to a light contact, but during the schooling process with some horses the contact will initially be much firmer.

 

[Ecila]

My pony doesnt work in an outline but i make sure she uses all her muscles by using my leg. She is still learning to bend and i dont want to rush things, she comes into a natural outline whne she works properly and relaxes.

 

[druid]

Firm hand on S = backwards or upwards...firm doesn't work with the very reactive types I tend to prefer

 

[S_N]

Gosh, this has been such an interesting thread!! I have to say, that I can hardly ride a horse in an outline anymore - it knackers me just getting it going forwards

One day I will be fit enough to actually ride again, rather than just flapping around like a complete prat and hindering the poor horse.

 

[sojeph]

TBH tho - riding a horse shouldn't tire you. I'm pretty unfit compared to how I used to be and so are my horses. They live out 24/7 and get ridden every now and then but it never tires me to ride them and they're both hefty cobs.

 

[S_N]

But you have to be fit to ride properly - I am not!