Old Dogs

[Clodagh]

Brandy is 13 this year, and has been a working dog so that is going great guns. She has been on daily canidryl for a while now, and had her check up 2 weeks ago with bloods and everything and the vet is quite happy that she isn't in pain and is generally well.
She is a bit pottery and I have noticed that on rough ground or uphills she doesn't seem sure what her back feet are doing. I assume it is DM but wondered what those of you who had seen it thought it might be? Today, also she has what looks like 'cold tail' although it still wags at the bottom it is hanging down. When she goes for her little walk she pants more than you would expect, if not pain then just effort? She can still canter on occasions but it looks a bit gawky.
She is bright eyed and cheerful, has been for her short walk round the paddock and is now walking round the garden hoovering up unspeakable rubbish.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

TBH, I don't think it matters what the diagnosis is, or what the vet says about pain. You know your dog best and can make a sensible judgment on quality of life, which I am sure you will do, when the time comes.
She does sound like a typical Labrador, most of ours have gone eventually with back-end issues. It's not always easy working out the margin between a week too soon and a day too late. I have to say that I'm not sure that hoovering up unspeakable rubbish is much of a guide - that's in their DNA. She sounds to be fine for now, I hope that you have a good long time left with her.

 

[Clodagh]

TBH, I don't think it matters what the diagnosis is, or what the vet says about pain. You know your dog best and can make a sensible judgment on quality of life, which I am sure you will do, when the time comes.
She does sound like a typical Labrador, most of ours have gone eventually with back-end issues. It's not always easy working out the margin between a week too soon and a day too late. I have to say that I'm not sure that hoovering up unspeakable rubbish is much of a guide - that's in their DNA. She sounds to be fine for now, I hope that you have a good long time left with her.

Thank you. I think she’s happy enough at present but the panting makes me uncomfortable.
If she ever doesn’t eat we will just dig a hole ?

 

[fankino04]

I'm in a similar sort of position with noodle and agree with Pas that there comes a time when I stop worrying about official diagnosis and just manage the dog in front of me. She also pants on walks but is very adamant she wants to go on one (prior to physio finding and treating an issue in her back she was adamant she didn't want to go on walks). When off the lead she will still do some short jogs off in front so pretty sure she isn't uncomfortable and she flings herself around the room to get my attention at food time lol so for now I'm happy to be guided by her and not stress about what is behind the muscle wastage, lack of moulting, mini twitches etc.

 

[Clodagh]

I'm in a similar sort of position with noodle and agree with Pas that there comes a time when I stop worrying about official diagnosis and just manage the dog in front of me. She also pants on walks but is very adamant she wants to go on one (prior to physio finding and treating an issue in her back she was adamant she didn't want to go on walks). When off the lead she will still do some short jogs off in front so pretty sure she isn't uncomfortable and she flings herself around the room to get my attention at food time lol so for now I'm happy to be guided by her and not stress about what is behind the muscle wastage, lack of moulting, mini twitches etc.

I have been thinking Noodle sounds similar. The summer is worse for Brandy, she hates the heat and the hard ground but she’s happy as Larry at the moment.

 

[Birker2020]

The biggest thing for us has been when an elderly dog goes off their food. That is the hardest part. On both occasions this has sadly meant the end has been imminent despite vets intervention.
I remember feeling the desperation of trying to get a sick dog to eat, it was the same with my MIL and also my Father, within days on both occasions they passed.

It seems like this is the way it is meant to be.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There's nothing really you can do for DM anyway, there's no pain with it, just confusion and more wear and tear on the working bits as they have to support more of the dog's weight, it starts at the back then moves forwards.
Prolonged heavy panting in old dogs **can** be linked to organs failing but I'd expect you'd have noticed/there would be other symptoms.
For me, I let them go when getting up/moving around/toileting becomes a struggle. I wouldn't consider wheels.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

There's nothing really you can do for DM anyway, there's no pain with it, just confusion and more wear and tear on the working bits as they have to support more of the dog's weight, it starts at the back then moves forwards.
Prolonged heavy panting in old dogs **can** be linked to organs failing but I'd expect you'd have noticed/there would be other symptoms.
For me, I let them go when getting up/moving around/toileting becomes a struggle. I wouldn't consider wheels.

Goodness me no! And tbh, I don't think I've ever waited for a Lab to go off its food, when they are struggling to get up and move about is enough for me.

 

[Clodagh]

There's nothing really you can do for DM anyway, there's no pain with it, just confusion and more wear and tear on the working bits as they have to support more of the dog's weight, it starts at the back then moves forwards.
Prolonged heavy panting in old dogs **can** be linked to organs failing but I'd expect you'd have noticed/there would be other symptoms.
For me, I let them go when getting up/moving around/toileting becomes a struggle. I wouldn't consider wheels.

As soon as her back end gives way, she can't get up easily and is incontinent (or any one of those) she will be going.
Or if she stops eating!
I don't think it's organ failure, and the vet listened to her heart. I think its all just a bit of a struggle now.
I think, from her POV, DM probably a nicer diagnosis than arthritis as no pain?

 

[Birker2020]

The biggest thing for us has been when an elderly dog goes off their food. That is the hardest part. On both occasions this has sadly meant the end has been imminent despite vets intervention.
I remember feeling the desperation of trying to get a sick dog to eat, it was the same with my MIL and also my Father, within days on both occasions they passed.

It seems like this is the way it is meant to be.

Sorry this reply seems it may have caused confusion.

Just to clarity when both my dog and my partners dog went off their food, I didn't mean that we let them starve to death and we didn't wait for them to go off their food either, this was just one of the symptoms that the end was near. The first one, my dog ended up having a massive rectal bleed and was found by Mum on Boxing Day, very unfortunate, she was being treated by the vet but had been put on the wrong drug unbeknown to us. The vet who came to pts was really nice and said to Mum and Dad that if he'd seen her this wouldn't have happened.

The second dog we has pts as soon as we got the blood test results back on the Friday morning which said she had chronic kidney failure and she needed to be pts. When we took her in on the Friday afternoon after I finally 'got released from work' from my evil line manager (who couldn't understand why I was upset or leaving work early) we took her to the vets have her pts and they tried to get us to consent to two days a week kidney dialysis on a 14 year old dog!!

Unfortunately due to the crazy laws in this country MIL and Dad didn't have such a fast end to their lives where they were able to drift peacefully off to sleep when they chose to. I thank God every day we are given this choice with our pets.

 

[Bellasophia]

hope it’s not Dm...try the knuckle test..dog stands square,you take the back foot and set it down with the toes under her foot...a healthy dog will reset the foot at once..a compromised( neurological) foot will remain as set.
I try to keep the oldies involved,like you,it’s respectful to their dignity..
Mine get a thicker bedding,more car rides,and lots of good company in our sunny garden.
My first st poodle ( 13 yrs) had a lovely walk with me on the fields,came back home and crashed into her bed..she had a stroke and a few hours later passed away on my bed...I carried her upstairs and she had me and her sidekick poodle laid at her side her as she passed.It was the best way to go and it’s made her passing easier for me to know she’d tried till the end.

 

[blackcob]

My old dog #1 is a chronic panter now, especially at night, and we haven't managed to get to the bottom of why. She'd been on NSAIDs for arthritis for a while so ran routine bloods, they came back appalling. We went on a whole-dog hunt for a primary cause fully expecting to find something horrible but nope, couple of incidental findings now medicated for and apart from being more lipoma than dog she is otherwise signed off as a panty old fart.

Old dog #2 has cervical spondylopathy and sometimes loses track of what his back feet are up to, particularly when it comes to stairs, he has to have a run-up and do it in X number of strides or else it goes a bit wrong.

I am another one coming round to the 'sod a diagnosis' way of thinking for mine, you can't fix old and as long as the dog in front of you today is happy and pottering about enjoying life, in my example worrying about every blip on their repeat bloods was just an invitation to worry unnecessarily tbh. It is tough though, you have my sympathy.

 

[Mynstrel]

(according to some training I've been doing) The nerves to the back legs and (oddly) their larynx are the longest ones in a dog, so they're the ones most likely to stop transmitting information properly as a dog get older. That's one of the reasons why older dogs lose awareness of their back legs/feet and start to sound like they're breathing more loudly or bark differently.

 

[tda]

Interesting 're the panting, one of our parson Russell terriers is 14 in June, he's a bit blind and a bit deaf but still perky and happy to walk out. He has been panting quite a bit lately, will mention it at his next check up.

Edited at add after reading black cobs reply, he can still get up the stairs but often does need a run up to them

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm sorry to butt in, but is DM what causes older labradors to go tottery on their back end? We've seen a few different older labs recently now we're out and about more, and they seemed to be stiff behind.

 

[Thistle]

Lily, staffie is a proper old lady now. She's a bit grumpy but it's just noise and we don't leave pup anywhere near her. She's just started a new arthritis treatment called Librela which is injectable once a month. We'll see how it goes and if it improves her quality of life. If so we'll continue, if not then there will be decisions to be made. She's developed a grade 3 heart murmur, no longer goes 'out' for walks but trots happily round all the paddocks 3x a day. Her appetite is good and she's no longer vomiting so much and maintaining her weight now we've found a food that suits her.

 

[Jenko109]

My whippet has something similar to DM.

She's had MRI scans, a spinal tap, various blood tests, been under a neurologist etc. They do not know what is wrong with her but her symptoms are similar to DM except it is backwards. It began with the front end and I sometimes think I see very subtle signs on the back end. She's on seizure drugs which have helped limit her episodes.

She is only rising 8 which is why myself and the vets have put so much into trying to obtain a diagnosis. For your girl, at her age, I would just tick along with her and see how she goes.

 

[Clodagh]

I'm sorry to butt in, but is DM what causes older labradors to go tottery on their back end? We've seen a few different older labs recently now we're out and about more, and they seemed to be stiff behind.

I don’t know the answer to that. I thought DM was a GSD disease until I found out on here they can all get it.

 

[fankino04]

I'm sorry to butt in, but is DM what causes older labradors to go tottery on their back end? We've seen a few different older labs recently now we're out and about more, and they seemed to be stiff behind.

I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledge but I'd say if they look stuff it's more arthritis, DM is more like loosing control / coordination of their limbs x

 

[CorvusCorax]

DM presents as lack of co-ordination/loss of power and is neurological. The John Wayne swagger/stiffness is more likely linked to hips.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The John Wayne swagger/stiffness is more likely linked to hips.

Ah yes, that would describe how these old labs were moving. Thanks.

 

[PurBee]

Im in the same position with 1 old dog - keeping an eagle eye on him. Trying to assess his quality of life all the time. It’s hard because he has ‘bad’ days of not wanting to be active, then very active good days when he’s loving the spring sunshine and rummaging around horse poop piles.
I’ve decided when the bad days outweigh the good he’s likely to be more uncomfortable than good and the vet visit will have to happen.

He has a degenerative condition so its a case of knowing he’s not just going to die at ease, and will get pretty ill before dying naturally so that end has to be kinder with pts.
He’s 17 years old! A parson jack russell X staffy....really likeable independent chap, gets on with everyone, happily be bottom of the pack with other dogs, likes wondering the countryside sniffing the scents and amusing himself.

It’s hard when they get old, and degeneration creeps in. They deal with it better than us humans, remaining stoic when feeling rough and playful on good days!

 

[Bellasophia]

DM...more than 115 different breeds said to be found with the gene that can cause this incureable illness..
https://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/resources/Canine-degenerative-myelopathy-NSDTRetPK.pdf

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Ah yes, that would describe how these old labs were moving. Thanks.

Almost every Lab I have had into old age has been on arthritis meds by the end.


We are currently managing the Rottweiler in front of us, she has just been diagnosed with a bladder tumour. We do not want her to have chemo (she hates going to the vet already), so she is taking anti-inflammatories and anti-biotics in the hope of managing the symptoms and when the symptoms can no longer be managed she will be pts at home, where the Labs will then be able to understand what has happened to their 'surrogate mum'.

 

[Clodagh]

DM presents as lack of co-ordination/loss of power and is neurological. The John Wayne swagger/stiffness is more likely linked to hips.

That makes sense, Brandy looks rather like someone who’s been on the voddy. ?

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Big dog did the panting thing. I believe it was related to dementia. He managed to rocking horse canter round the fields no bother. The defining moment for me was his ability to find his way out of a bramble when he was trying to follow me. Broke me, he went to the vet that evening.

 

[Sandstone1]

Dm is a horrible disease. I lost my old girl to it last year. Its a cruel disease because mentally they are still a young dog but slowly the body is becoming paralysed from the back end up. It is painless and can progress slowly but they can go off their back legs quite suddenly.
There are quite a few things you can do to help them but there is no cure, Mine panted at night so I put a fan near by, you can get boots which stop them damaging their feet when they start dragging them. Sadly it is a one way journey and where you draw the line depends on you and your dog. It really is a horrible disease.

 

[Moobli]

I don’t know the answer to that. I thought DM was a GSD disease until I found out on here they can all get it.

Can you test for the gene associated with DM in Labs like you can in GSDs? DM can only definitively be diagnosed on necropsy though and there are a lot of other conditions that present similarly. My old GSD had spondylosis in his spine which could make him drag his back feet a bit when he got older. You know your own dog, so I would just take each day as it comes and make the decision to call the vet when any bad days start to outweigh the good. I hope you have her around for a good while longer.

 

[Clodagh]

I get the impression I’m in the minority in that if it is DM I’m ok with that. Something painless has to be better than severe arthritis , the end result is the same but the route there might be better.
She’s a wonderful dog and has given us so much pleasure, equally we have given her pretty well a Labrador’s ideal life. When her legs get too wobbly to go on that will be that, but no regrets. Our journey together has been great.
Equally hoping for plenty of time with her yet.
It would be terrible in a young dog.

 

[fankino04]

I get the impression I’m in the minority in that if it is DM I’m ok with that. Something painless has to be better than severe arthritis , the end result is the same but the route there might be better.
She’s a wonderful dog and has given us so much pleasure, equally we have given her pretty well a Labrador’s ideal life. When her legs get too wobbly to go on that will be that, but no regrets. Our journey together has been great.
Equally hoping for plenty of time with her yet.
It would be terrible in a young dog.

I suppose the thing with arthritis is you can help to a point with drugs but with DM there is nothing you can do but watch them get progressively worse. I get what you mean about being pain free though...