Oliver the brat - advice needed.

[Sussexbythesea]

Now a few of you wanted to know more about Oliver after I posted pictures of him in the photo thread. Handsome is as handsome does they said and basically he’s a handsome brat!

So any ideas on how to tame the brat

He’s 5.5yrs old, WelshxIDxArabxHanoverian I believe - he definitely has Welsh Dragon.

Due to my saddler that I trust being unable to come out yet for various reasons I haven’t yet got a saddle. This isn’t ideal but im working on it. So for the last two months I’ve been doing in-hand work, lunging and walking out in-hand. His worst behaviour is around trying to work on the lunge and in hand in the school. He’s not shy in rearing and jumping with all four feet off the ground in a fit of pique and then just pulling the rope out of my hands and I simply cannot hang on in either a bridle or string halter. Yesterday he ran full pelt at the gate skidded into it and it bounced the catch open and he got out thankfully he went to the nearest patch of grass and was easily caught. Each time he’s done this I’ve just picked up again and we’ve carried on normally after and he’s behaved reasonably well. Today he did it again minus getting out.

I’ve been having groundwork lessons and although a bit feisty hasn’t got away during them.

Plus points- he’s been pretty much perfect for the farrier, dentist and vet treatment for mud fever including injections and even ate doxycycline and Bute with no issues. He ties up nicely, is good to groom and do feet, perfect to bath on the day he arrived. Loaded fine. He quite personable but a bit mouthy so only has a treat at turn out and bring in. I used a bridle long line and a flag to turn out and bring in.

Feed wise he’s on a half cup of fast fibre and honey chop lite. Nothing with molasses or alfalfa. I’ve had him on Protexin and Aloe Vera juice for digestion due move and antibiotics and Bute.

The Brat!

 

[Sossigpoker]

I would lunge in a proper lunge pen so he doesn't have the option of buggering off. Unfortunately he knows that he can do it when he feels like it.
I usually hate lunge pens as I lunge using the whole arena , not just going around in a circle ,.but for this kind of behaviour they are useful.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Do you lunge with one line or two? Might be worth trying two, both being connected to the bit

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Soya?

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I would lunge in a proper lunge pen so he doesn't have the option of buggering off. Unfortunately he knows that he can do it when he feels like it.
I usually hate lunge pens as I lunge using the whole arena , not just going around in a circle ,.but for this kind of behaviour they are useful.

Sadly we don’t have one but absolutely it would be useful.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Do you lunge with one line or two? Might be worth trying two, both being connected to the bit

Maybe but I fear I might die as I struggle not to get tangled in just the one . I’ll ask my instructor.

 

[blitznbobs]

Do your ground work in a stable - can’t bugger off in there once he is actually taking you seriously find a slightly larger enclosed space and so on and so forth… but it sounds like he now knows he’s stronger than you so it’s going to take a lot of work to untrain this behaviour without help

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Soya?

Possibly I think there is soya oil in the fast fibre.

 

[Spotherisk]

I found lunging with two reins was actually easier, as you turned the horse away from you to change the rein without stopping them or bringing them into the centre. Quicker changes meant more concentration was required for the horse, and having an outside rein gave much more control. I suppose your other option is not to lunge for a while, and concentrate on what he does well, perhaps leading out? I think you have another horse, could you ride and lead?

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Do your ground work in a stable - can’t bugger off in there once he is actually taking you seriously find a slightly larger enclosed space and so on and so forth… but it sounds like he now knows he’s stronger than you so it’s going to take a lot of work to untrain this behaviour without help

Yes I’ve been doing that he has to back up when I take feed in. He has to stop and wait before walking in or out of stable etc. I do the turning and backing up exercises and when he’s good he’s good but unfortunately you’re right he now knows he can do it so he keeps doing it. I’ve not had a horse quite as bolshy as he is.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

What a pretty face!

Is it possible that he gets annoyed about being confused? Mim would do that. She would throw a strop if she wasn’t 100% sure what I wanted. I got around it by being more clear with my praise and consistently rewarding the behavior that I wanted.

For example, I’d get her to canter nicely for a few strides, let her come back to trot and then say good girl, well done etc - unintentionally praising the trot not the canter. She stopped wanting to give me canter and just got faster and faster in the trot when I was asking for canter, and got thoroughly peed off with me when I kept asking her.

Just a thought really, could be way off but when I started to look at everything she didn’t like, I could see my own mixed messages.

 

[blitznbobs]

Yes I’ve been doing that he has to back up when I take feed in. He has to stop and wait before walking in or out of stable etc. I do the turning and backing up exercises and when he’s good he’s good but unfortunately you’re right he now knows he can do it so he keeps doing it. I’ve not had a horse quite as bolshy as he is.

you need someone to teach him how he has to behave and how to put him off balance when he starts to tank off or you are going to get injured.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I found lunging with two reins was actually easier, as you turned the horse away from you to change the rein without stopping them or bringing them into the centre. Quicker changes meant more concentration was required for the horse, and having an outside rein gave much more control. I suppose your other option is not to lunge for a while, and concentrate on what he does well, perhaps leading out? I think you have another horse, could you ride and lead?

Yes I do have another horse and have considered it but I’m worried he’ll pull away and I won’t be able to stop him. It’s so busy around us with forestry work, the shoot and out of control dogs at the moment especially as days are so short I can’t get out earlier enough to avoid it.

 

[blitznbobs]

you need someone to teach him how he has to behave and how to put him off balance when he starts to tank off or you are going to get injured.

You can do everything in ground work in a very small area. How fast does he respond to your back up command, how quickly can you change direction of the circles and how good is your halt command… until these are spotless IN the stable don’t even think of going in a school.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

You can do everything in ground work in a very small area. How fast does he respond to your back up command, how quickly can you change direction of the circles and how good is your halt command… until these are spotless IN the stable don’t even think of going in a school.

Yes maybe I need to go back to basics again. These are things I’ve been working on with my instructor who does both NH and traditional type teaching. It’s quite an art though timing and positioning wise though. I think I might avoid the school unless I’m having a lesson.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

What a pretty face!

Is it possible that he gets annoyed about being confused? Mim would do that. She would throw a strop if she wasn’t 100% sure what I wanted. I got around it by being more clear with my praise and consistently rewarding the behavior that I wanted.

For example, I’d get her to canter nicely for a few strides, let her come back to trot and then say good girl, well done etc - unintentionally praising the trot not the canter. She stopped wanting to give me canter and just got faster and faster in the trot when I was asking for canter, and got thoroughly peed off with me when I kept asking her.

Just a thought really, could be way off but when I started to look at everything she didn’t like, I could see my own mixed messages.

It’s quite possible I’m not the most coordinated and I’m really working on that. I do think part of it is anxiety about being in the school/ anxiousness about what’s going on in the fields around. School has a big hedge around it so you can hear stuff but only glimpse things through the hedge. Also I think I need for the time being to avoid afternoons as this seems to be the worst time.

 

[Landcruiser]

Long line (15 ft) on a rope halter, and a good close fitting pair of grippy gardening type gloves. Use angles if he takes off, to pull him to the side rather than pulling against him in a straight line. The gloves are a game changer.

MStore

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[rabatsa]

With a couple that have come to me for lunge training, known to bog off ones, I have used a dog check chain over the nose. Thread through the headcollar rings and over the nose. Connect the lunge rein to the dog chain, both ring ends coming out from the ring under the chin of the headcollar.

Yes the horse will still bog off, but it hurts and generally it only happens a couple of times before they get the idea that staying around you is the best option. Some real culprits may need the chain draping over the nose even when lunging from a fixed point, just as a reminder.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I have used the chain trick successfully, needs to be a strong chain, as I had a couple that would be ok on one rein but on the other would suddenly turn their head to the outside and then take off directly away from me. Short sharp shock from the chain and they would behave. I only had fields to lunge in so control was essential.

 

[Trouper]

So what is different when you are having groundwork lessons (when you say he has not got away) and when you are working with him on your own? I agree with @LadyGascoyne that he may be showing frustration because he is not understanding what you are asking of him??
Without seeing the difference it is difficult to advise but maybe just do one simple thing at a time so he can process the instructions more easily.

He is gorgeous btw.

 

[Barton Bounty]

@Sussexbythe XmasTree I actually thought I would get tangled in it too, but Orbi lunged himself lmao it was completely unintentional

 

[Red-1]

If one has learned to set and tank off, I use a bit/headstall with the lunge line on one side of the bit, up and over the head and through the other side of the bit to my hand. It provides a short, sharp shock. I would use that for all handling until you are sure he is concentrating.

I would get more help in, as every time he succeeds it is grooving the behaviour in deeper.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Can't help with the lunging but Dex & I often walk for miles around the Angmering Park Estate in hand and he has proven to be pretty much unflappable so far. So if you think a sensible companion to go out with would be useful at all, I am more than happy to meet up if local enough

Also who is your trusted saddler if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Long line (15 ft) on a rope halter, and a good close fitting pair of grippy gardening type gloves. Use angles if he takes off, to pull him to the side rather than pulling against him in a straight line. The gloves are a game changer.

MStore

Mstore, leading UK PPE supplier, providing CE certified Hand, Eye and Respiratory protection and safety wear. 10% off first order, free delivery on orders over £50, free returns.

mstore.co.uk

I have 13ft line which he’s pulled away from but I’ll try the gloves but I think he’ll just probably pull me right over instead. I get the angle thing but he’s so quick it’s difficult to catch him before he’s gone.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

With a couple that have come to me for lunge training, known to bog off ones, I have used a dog check chain over the nose. Thread through the headcollar rings and over the nose. Connect the lunge rein to the dog chain, both ring ends coming out from the ring under the chin of the headcollar.

Yes the horse will still bog off, but it hurts and generally it only happens a couple of times before they get the idea that staying around you is the best option. Some real culprits may need the chain draping over the nose even when lunging from a fixed point, just as a reminder.

I guess it might be the next option.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

So what is different when you are having groundwork lessons (when you say he has not got away) and when you are working with him on your own? I agree with @LadyGascoyne that he may be showing frustration because he is not understanding what you are asking of him??
Without seeing the difference it is difficult to advise but maybe just do one simple thing at a time so he can process the instructions more easily.

He is gorgeous btw.

I’m not really sure. The lessons are a bit later when all the horses have come in and although he’s tried it on he hasn’t got away. It’s usually when I’ve brought him in around 3pm and the others are still out or starting to come in that he’s been the worst. I’ve tried to be really considered in my actions to not give wrong signals and the behaviour is a bit extreme.

I also don’t think it’s a new thing. When I bought him the owner said she had decided she was too old to deal with a young horse and she’d been diagnosed with hand arthritis and I bet he’d done the same with her. She said he needs time to mature a couple of times and reading between the lines I bet it was related to his pushy behaviour.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

It’s quite possible I’m not the most coordinated and I’m really working on that. I do think part of it is anxiety about being in the school/ anxiousness about what’s going on in the fields around. School has a big hedge around it so you can hear stuff but only glimpse things through the hedge. Also I think I need for the time being to avoid afternoons as this seems to be the worst time.

I might just stop lunging, and reintroduce it once you’ve sorted the saddle and are riding properly again. But then again, I’m not a fan of lunging and only really lunge mine to teach them so they know it if they need to.

What sort of in-hand stuff are you doing with him at the moment?

 

[Sussexbythesea]

If one has learned to set and tank off, I use a bit/headstall with the lunge line on one side of the bit, up and over the head and through the other side of the bit to my hand. It provides a short, sharp shock. I would use that for all handling until you are sure he is concentrating.

I would get more help in, as every time he succeeds it is grooving the behaviour in deeper.

I’m really disappointed that I’ve not managed to get on top of it. I realise that now he’s done it a few times it’s becoming a habit although as above I think it was something he’d done before.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Can't help with the lunging but Dex & I often walk for miles around the Angmering Park Estate in hand and he has proven to be pretty much unflappable so far. So if you think a sensible companion to go out with would be useful at all, I am more than happy to meet up if local enough

Also who is your trusted saddler if you don't mind me asking?

Ah thanks I don’t think I’d inflict him on your lovely young horse just yet as you’re doing so well with him I wouldn’t want to jeopardise that.

The saddler I use is Sara Udal. She fits holistically and is into connected riding. She's was a Lavinia Mitchell fitter and I have two LM saddles and she has fitted a Thoroughgood one to my late old boy. She is also selling her own design now but it’s out of my price bracket.

She’s based in Hampshire though so not round the corner.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I might just stop lunging, and reintroduce it once you’ve sorted the saddle and are riding properly again. But then again, I’m not a fan of lunging and only really lunge mine to teach them so they know it if they need to.

What sort of in-hand stuff are you doing with him at the moment?

Well I set out trying to follow the TRT method getting respectful leading etc. as from the get go he’s not been very spatially respectful and I’ve been working at turning him away, backing up, moving his hindquarters, moving his shoulder away. I was doing a session and just saying to a friend who appeared at the gate he was getting better when he just bogged off so it not just lunging.

The exercise I was doing with my instructor was to stand in a square of poles and keep him going around them without coming into the circle. Changing direction and then working up to trot. Last lesson we made the square bigger and started to do more of a proper lunge. He did throw a fit but once he got over it he went nicely then we attached the side reins and did a few trotting poles which he was very good at.