Oliver the brat - advice needed.

[maya2008]

You know any saddle you have fitted is going to be really limited in how long it fits at this stage in his training? Shortest I have had is 3 weeks until adjustment needed. They develop muscle so fast and are still growing, so nothing lasts! You really need a saddler who can get to you reliably and easily at relatively short notice.

Regarding the lunging, it depends entirely on the personality of your horse and the security of your arena, as to the ‘right’ thing to do. I am assuming you are using a bridle at this point (because if not, that’s your first step).
- I had one who was big and strong and would jump out of the arena - we stopped lunging him until he was more established under saddle, and then all was fine. He was nervy about leaving his herd mates and needed to trust the humans more.
- I also had one who wouldn’t leave the space, but was just bolshy and looking for leadership. I took some time, and sat it out. Got her free schooling nicely first, installed the voice commands, then added a lunge line. In every case, if she was awkward, she simply got to work harder. She was, to be fair, the same under saddle - you had to prove you were worthy of her submission!
- My TB was lighter built so I could just pull her diagonally and cause her to lose balance a bit. Much easier.


For general respect on the ground, the ‘Dancing with Horses’ book has a method that really really works. We have used it on a variety of horses and ponies with great success. No special equipment needed, easy to do.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

I cannot lunge mine. Entirely my fault as he got away from me several times and has learnt now that I can’t stop him. It’s very annoying. I have had a pro lunge him who is quick enough and strong enough to keep hold and stop him. He managed to get him lunging really nicely. as soon as I’m on the end of the line, he knows. i even stood shoulder to shoulder with the pro and as soon as it’s me on the end he charges off. . So I no longer lunge. Can be annoying for vet visits but we just have to live with it. Luckily he’s never going to be sold so he will only ever be my problem!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

You know any saddle you have fitted is going to be really limited in how long it fits at this stage in his training? Shortest I have had is 3 weeks until adjustment needed. They develop muscle so fast and are still growing, so nothing lasts! You really need a saddler who can get to you reliably and easily at relatively short notice.

Regarding the lunging, it depends entirely on the personality of your horse and the security of your arena, as to the ‘right’ thing to do.
- I had one who was big and strong and would jump out of the arena - we stopped lunging him until he was more established under saddle, and then all was fine. He was nervy about leaving his herd mates and needed to trust the humans more.
- I also had one who wouldn’t leave the space, but was just bolshy and looking for leadership. I took some time, and sat it out. Got her free schooling nicely first, installed the voice commands, then added a lunge line. In every case, if she was awkward, she simply got to work harder. She was, to be fair, the same under saddle - you had to prove you were worthy of her submission!
- My TB was lighter built so I could just pull her diagonally and cause her to lose balance a bit. Much easier.

That’s true but finding a decent saddler is like finding hens teeth. Many can’t fit well and a lot only sell brand new saddles and there is a trend to do brands that cost £3-4K and I’m certainly not spending that on something that won’t fit in 6 months time. My saddler does fit with shims so that you can adjust as they develop. My older horse started out with big shims and different on each side and now has none but still the same saddle 5yrs later.

I think I just need to get out riding. Our school is huge and spooky and we’re not allowed to loose school.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would lunge from the bit like red has said and put a roller on with side reins if need be even if it's just until you get a bit more control.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Well I set out trying to follow the TRT method getting respectful leading etc. as from the get go he’s not been very spatially respectful and I’ve been working at turning him away, backing up, moving his hindquarters, moving his shoulder away. I was doing a session and just saying to a friend who appeared at the gate he was getting better when he just bogged off so it not just lunging.

The exercise I was doing with my instructor was to stand in a square of poles and keep him going around them without coming into the circle. Changing direction and then working up to trot. Last lesson we made the square bigger and started to do more of a proper lunge. He did throw a fit but once he got over it he went nicely then we attached the side reins and did a few trotting poles which he was very good at.

My favourite things to do are things that I teach on the ground and then introduce under saddle. I use groundwork linked to what I intend to do in the saddle because it helps to focus me in terms of what I’m looking for, and because it’s not introducing too many different concepts and commands for the horse.

My standards are getting the halt in place, and walking nicely into contact on the ground, followed by back-up (which I always teach from the bridle pressure now instead of touching the chest or getting in their space in front of them so that rein back is instantly understood when I’m mounted) and then turn on the forehand which is also the start of my gate training for opening and closing gates whilst mounted.

My favourite proper exercise at the moment is teaching shoulder-in, with me at the shoulder, facing the tail and the horse lined up against the fence or wall. Then getting the horse to bring its shoulders off the track and keep its quarters on the track, whilst I am walking backwards. I ask them to think about bringing their hinds nicely under themselves and engaging their cores by just touching ever so lightly with a schooling whip where I want them to engage. I then take that away from the wall, so they are only relying on me to place them, and then build into squares where every corner is a few steps of turn on the forehand.

I find mine really concentrate on the exercise, and they become lighter and more balanced as we go. It’s also a very slow, controlled exercise with no scope for bogging off, and if anyone gets overwhelmed we just pause and take a bit of a breather, and then pick up again. I probably do it for about 5-10 min a session. I think sometimes we can be tempted to do too much with horses because we feel we have to fill a human time slot, like an hour. If they give me a nice shoulder-in the first time around, I’ll leave it at that and take them for a wander in-hand on the farm instead.

 

[shanti]

My young Standy wouldn't lunge when I got him, and was very bolshy and mouthy on the ground. Near perfect ridden but I couldnt do anything with him on the ground.
I had to get help from a trainer as I was getting nowhere with him and losing confidence. The trainer, straight away, told me to long rein him, take him for in hand walks and spend an hour a day just watching him in the paddock. For some reason after a few weeks of this everything became easier. He started lunging fine (though I rarely lunge I like them to know how), became less bolshy and started to respond to my requests. I think the issues we were having were two-fold.

A. he didn't understand what I was asking and was getting frustrated.
B. I had no clue who he actually was. I had no clue what his body language was trying to tell me, and I was missing subtle but important cue's which was causing him even further frustration.

Long reigning definitely helped me to read him better and get to know what he responded best to. He is still a grumpy git, but it's all talk really and it's so much easier now that I understand his language better.

 

[ihatework]

He might just need a bit more physical exercise tbh. Does he know how to ride and lead?

 

[Goldenstar]

Whatever you do do not try to lunge using two lines on a horse you can’t control with one .

I would stop all work until you have a saddle .
At five and half he needs more and telling you he has no respect for and that’s not good .
Once this behaviour is ingrained it’s a pain to fix and it’s always with them .
Make a plan for getting him started again .
If you have another horse you could try leading him for it if you have a safe place for doing that .
I would not lead him about the place in case you lose him in public it’s too much risk for him and innocent third parties.

You need to 100 percent focused on him respecting your space and him being focussed on you in day to day handling .
Watch his eyes and ears to check where his focus is .

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Now a few of you wanted to know more about Oliver after I posted pictures of him in the photo thread. Handsome is as handsome does they said and basically he’s a handsome brat!

So any ideas on how to tame the brat

He’s 5.5yrs old, WelshxIDxArabxHanoverian I believe - he definitely has Welsh Dragon.

Due to my saddler that I trust being unable to come out yet for various reasons I haven’t yet got a saddle. This isn’t ideal but im working on it. So for the last two months I’ve been doing in-hand work, lunging and walking out in-hand. His worst behaviour is around trying to work on the lunge and in hand in the school. He’s not shy in rearing and jumping with all four feet off the ground in a fit of pique and then just pulling the rope out of my hands and I simply cannot hang on in either a bridle or string halter. Yesterday he ran full pelt at the gate skidded into it and it bounced the catch open and he got out thankfully he went to the nearest patch of grass and was easily caught. Each time he’s done this I’ve just picked up again and we’ve carried on normally after and he’s behaved reasonably well. Today he did it again minus getting out.

I’ve been having groundwork lessons and although a bit feisty hasn’t got away during them.

Plus points- he’s been pretty much perfect for the farrier, dentist and vet treatment for mud fever including injections and even ate doxycycline and Bute with no issues. He ties up nicely, is good to groom and do feet, perfect to bath on the day he arrived. Loaded fine. He quite personable but a bit mouthy so only has a treat at turn out and bring in. I used a bridle long line and a flag to turn out and bring in.

Feed wise he’s on a half cup of fast fibre and honey chop lite. Nothing with molasses or alfalfa. I’ve had him on Protexin and Aloe Vera juice for digestion due move and antibiotics and Bute.

The Brat!
View attachment 130266

he looks like butter would not melt, look at that innocent face.



What we did with one that would shoot of in the school, we made a barricade across the middle with jump poles and blocks so she only had a 20 meter circle to go in.

I would lunge with cavasson or with bridle so you have more control, maybe have a stan by person if he gets naughty, When teaching a young one to lunge I always have someone on the outside of the lunging horse leading it round and being the second voice if i say whoa, they stop the horse too etc.

 

[SEL]

The Appy was horrendous when she came to me. If she didn't pull away then she'd reverse towards me kicking with intent.

I lunged in the bridle and the lunge rope was on the bit. If she was going to be rude then it was going to be uncomfortable.

I have learnt with a previous horse that if they are going to pull away then drop down so your centre of gravity is lower and they can't pull you over. You can give quite a strong pull on the lunge rope and then the bit doing this - but wear gloves. I was armed with a decent lunge whip to keep her out of my space as well, but I couldn't afford to be fluffy with that behaviour.

I also knew that she would try and p-off back to the gate of the arena so I would start lunging her at that end to avoid the temptation.

She's actually really good to lunge nowadays but we did need to come to a mutual understanding on boundaries!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

After a challenging last session with my trainer I’m going to look into alternative approaches as I’m not going to solve this issue in a battle of strength. I’m not keen on just upping the anti at this stage because I don’t think it’s dealing with what I believe is the core issue of anxiety about being in the arena.

If anyone can recommend a trainer that specialises in behavioural issues in the West Sussex area that woul be useful. I have a few to look into but additional recommendations would be useful. Thanks.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I worked with a lady very early doors with Dex called Claire Noller, who can seem a little airy fairy/eccentric but is very in tune with them and great for anti-anxiety. She is very kind but effective so would recommend. Alison Short is also very good, but I haven't trained with her since my last boy.

I do NOT recommend David Catchpole.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I worked with a lady very early doors with Dex called Claire Noller, who can seem a little airy fairy/eccentric but is very in tune with them and great for anti-anxiety. She is very kind but effective so would recommend. Alison Short is also very good, but I haven't trained with her since my last boy.

I do NOT recommend David Catchpole.

Thanks. I’ve had a few lessons with Alison with Edward which I enjoyed. I’m not sure she’s what I need for this issue as current trainer is not dissimilar. I’ve vaguely heard of Claire Noller so I’ll look her up. Not heard of DC. I’m also looking at a couple of IH practitioners in the local area.

 

[fredflop]

Agree with others that have said every time he does it will ingrain the habit into him unfortunately.

Alas I used to have an (older) horse that had learnt this nasty habit, along with trying to double barrel you for good measure.

I stopped lunging him “properly” at my first yard… it wasn’t worth the hassle.

I found that free lunging in an enclosed round pen really helped. Every time he decided he’d had enough of being lunged, he couldn’t turn around and jump out. If he thought about turning his back end on me he was given corrective action.

After many hard sessions in the pen he was an angel. I could get him to turn direction, stop and change gait at body language.

He did appear to be much better to lunge normally in a school after that… having said that I didn’t push it or do much of it.

One thing that did seem to work when I tried in a normal school (before lunge pen) was lunging in a bridle, a long line (proper NH heavy rope, not a lunge line) and side reins. As he used his head and neck as a lever to get the lunge line out of your hand, the side reins stopped him from doing it