Oliver Townend - warning for overuse of the whip at blair

lannerch said:
I agree with Tiddylepom totally, everyone is far to sensitive to oli picking up his whip, if a young horse is getting in the habit of running out it does need correcting, before it becomes a habit. I watched the live streaming at Blair and from what I saw oli rode very well .

His horses went beautifully at burghley and finished a lot better than most , if he was bashing them at home as many are claiming there is no way he would get the performance out of them he does, they try their hearts out for him, not the behaviour of a terrorised horse!

And I also question the timing of this story, why now straight after Burghley where from what I saw he gave all 3 horses textbook rides and rewarded them throughout. King joules looked the most tired, but when he passed me at the beginning of the course he was fighting oli to go faster all the way waiting energy, and indeed it was him that oli elected not to ride in the showjumping even though he was in a money winning position , as the health of the horse came first. Hardly the action of a horse abuser only in it for the glory and money!
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My thoughts exactly!
 
lannerch said:
Oliver has withdrawn MHS King Joules ahead of the final show jumping phase today. He was found to have given himself a slight knock yesterday and Oliver doesn’t want to jump him if he isn’t 100%. “I’m disappointed, both for the horse, who deserves a Burghley completion after the way he took on yesterday’s cross country course, and also for his owner, Tom Joule, who has been so supportive.” Oliver said.
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Exactly. The horse was not 100% sound. It was not retired out of the goodness of his heart.
 
At this point the authorities (BE and FEI) need a more joined up warning system. X amount of rider warnings in a certain time period (or at all for some types of warning) should translate to an auto yellow card which comes with sanctions. Further warnings go to a red card with stricter sanctions.
The current system is obviously not doing anything to discourage people from this behaviour, though they should not need warnings to realise it is not acceptable, so it needs to be changed ASAP.

I’m v disappointed to see this about OT. I don’t know if further action will be taken but, after this many warnings, I think it is warranted.
 
Tiddlypom said:
He rode well at Burghley, and didn't hassle his horses.

While at first glance the Blair incident sounds bad, Oli says that the horse has been occasionally been running out and it did so in the XC warm up, hence his use of the whip. Was it over zealous policing by nervous stewards, maybe?

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/oliver-townend-given-another-warning-whip-use-663442
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Is beating a horse around a three star event the new way of re schooling a horse who has soured or is hurting somewhere and is running out? If it was running out in the warm up, at that level, should he not have withdrawn and sorted out what is wrong with it at home?
 
I saw his 2nd and 3rd rides, and was unimpressed with his riding of the Cooley horse. Over riding into certain fences and a fair bit of pulling the teeth out on landing. The contrast between him and Harry Meade and Tim Price is painful. The latter two, as well as many others, showed just how a big course should be ridden. Perfectly balanced, and quiet throughout, and the same went for the SJ. Everybody seems fixated on his use of the whip, but what I saw yet again at Burghley, was his awful use of spurs, with his feet turned out at right angles, and the spurs stuck in the minute the horse started to tire. You could say he had to do this to keep them going, but they should be given time to respond, and if they can't due to tiredness, then they shouldn't keep being spurred. I saw the grey had a belly band on to stop spur marks.
 
Interesting observation I didn't really look at his feet, I think both his second and third horse had the band on I haven't seen one on a horse doing xc before thought they were more an sj thing. Not sure if king Jules had one on?

I would be worried about possibly accidentally marking a horse with spurs over some of those huge drops or if I got an awkward jump but then I am not a professional rider and will be going nowhere near those jumps with or without spurs! Also everyone else didn't have one on and I saw all the red button coverage.


Dopeydapple would interested to hear what you've heard from people, pm if you're ok with doing so.
 
ycbm said:
Is beating a horse around a three star event the new way of re schooling a horse who has soured or is hurting somewhere and is running out? If it was running out in the warm up, at that level, should he not have withdrawn and sorted out what is wrong with it at home?
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Totally with you on this. Horses I found start running out due to a reason be it over facing, pain, incorrect stride and whipping it into submission is not the way to go. Watching him at Badminton turning in the saddle to deliver several strikes of the whip was stomach turning. On an opposite side of the coin watching Silvia go round Burghley in her own time looking like she was really enjoying herself with Warren giving her all the time and support she needed was great.
 
It is weird that the article and comments on here focus so heavily on Oil T when two other riders also got yellow carded for quite serious issues and they have not been named and no one here seems to care....interesting. And I'm always interested why he gets slated so much and yet certain riders are hailed as gods who do some absolutely horrendous riding (EG any one?!)
 
shortstuff99 said:
It is weird that the article and comments on here focus so heavily on Oil T when two other riders also got yellow carded for quite serious issues and they have not been named and no one here seems to care....interesting. And I'm always interested why he gets slated so much and yet certain riders are hailed as gods who do some absolutely horrendous riding (EG any one?!)
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I started this thread because I wanted to know how many warnings a rider needs before action is taken. Oli T has had several whip warnings fairly recently so that's why I singled him out but I don't condone any sort of overuse of whip or spurs or any kind of cruel riding.

The FEI and our affiliated organisations all need to step up to prevent this but the riders need to ultimately take responsibility for their actions, especially the ultra high profile riders.
 
If Oli did indeed 'beat his horse around a 3 star event' then that would be completely wrong and the stewards at Blair should have handed out a greater penalty than a verbal warning. If he administered a few corrective slaps to keep the horse straight and prevent further running out, then that is usually considered acceptable.

None of us on here saw what happened at Blair, know who saw it IRL and who reported it to the stewards. I'm just a bit wary that they are coming down hard on Oli and letting others get away with greater infractions. I do not condone poor horsemanship at all, and have reported riders for poor riding/overuse of the whip to control in the past. Wheels, I fully agree that there needs to be more joined up thinking on this.

I thought that the lovely little grey mare Silvia should have been pulled up at Burghley, she was knackered.
 
I know two wrongs dont make a right but just because it is OT doesn't mean he should be subjected to the witch hunt that has been going on for such a long time. Social media is a nightmare for picking on a bone and chewing it to death. My guess he is probably bluntly honest and folk dont like it. Try standing at some unaffiliated showjumping venues and at some county show ringsides and you will see far more abuse of horses than at any 3 or 4 star events. Then look in a lot of fields and see the grossly obese and painfully thin all victims of abuse. Lead rein ponies that waddle round tied in and there are multitudes of in hand pony youngsters that nevr see a saddle as they are dead or crippled by the time they are old enough to ride. So give the guy a break his horses look well, are happy to compete for him with an enthusiasm most would envy and they are fluid and nippy over the fences which sort of implies they are not mistreated at home as they would be scared and over jump. As I think Ian Stark said at Burghley youcannot make a horse perform at that level it has to want to. I have met a very worried and caring OT many years ago at a a vet hospital his horse had surgery the same day as mine So would be about 15 years ago we were both there for follow ups for many months there after. He is not a person to hide his light under a bushel but certainly does not deserve the vitriol dished out on social media
 
windand rain said:
I know two wrongs dont make a right but just because it is OT doesn't mean he should be subjected to the witch hunt that has been going on for such a long time. Social media is a nightmare for picking on a bone and chewing it to death. My guess he is probably bluntly honest and folk dont like it. Try standing at some unaffiliated showjumping venues and at some county show ringsides and you will see far more abuse of horses than at any 3 or 4 star events. Then look in a lot of fields and see the grossly obese and painfully thin all victims of abuse. Lead rein ponies that waddle round tied in and there are multitudes of in hand pony youngsters that nevr see a saddle as they are dead or crippled by the time they are old enough to ride. So give the guy a break his horses look well, are happy to compete for him with an enthusiasm most would envy and they are fluid and nippy over the fences which sort of implies they are not mistreated at home as they would be scared and over jump. As I think Ian Stark said at Burghley youcannot make a horse perform at that level it has to want to. I have met a very worried and caring OT many years ago at a a vet hospital his horse had surgery the same day as mine So would be about 15 years ago we were both there for follow ups for many months there after. He is not a person to hide his light under a bushel but certainly does not deserve the vitriol dished out on social media
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Well said.
I didn't see anything wrong with his riding at Blair. I did see him running the cross country course because he had so many horses there he hadn't had time to walk the CIC*** so he jogged the whole course before Tregilder went around.
 
I am not an OT fan - far from it but I do feel very sorry for him and feel like screaming someone give the poor man a break.

He is talented - he a is a horseman. You wouldn't achieve the results he has without being a horseman.

Oli wears his heart on his sleeve - what you see is what you get, and quite frankly, I would much rather that than other 'names' who put on a happy, smiley front in public but are a very different character behind closed doors.

Of all those whinging about him, I wonder just how many ride at a decent level - and ride high powered competition horses, producing them from youngsters. They don't learn by cuddles and kisses. I am not saying that horses need abuse from the whip, absolutely not, but they sometimes need encouraging, and they need to know right from wrong - and you need to be black and white.

To me his horses always look to enjoy their job - no matter how much you 'beat' them, you can't make half a tonne of horse do anything!

I am annoyed with H&H for publishing the recent article from Blair, the day after Burghley when OT had given such a good display of riding and horsemanship through the whole competition - once again producing phenomenal results - all on young horses for the level. They also published it, without half the facts, glossing over the other riders who were also pulled up whilst putting the focus back on OT - wrong in my opinion.
 
I remember reading somewhere that a good dressage test is one where you feel relaxed and confident watching the combination.

When I watch OT go cross country I don't sit on the edge of my seat worried the next fence will bring a fall. His horses generally finish courses or are pulled up because they aren't capable of continuing. He makes sure they have every chance of getting themselves safely around a course. There are other riders who make me feel terrified for their horses at every jump but they aren't winning so the media isn't interested in publishing stories about any warnings they receive.

Media outlets get funding by selling advertising space. They expect us to understand and appreciate context in their reporting. They assume an intelligent audience so please don't forget to think and question when reading, don't take what's on the screen as the only truth.
 
SpringArising said:
I don't think he is a horseman per se, a bloody good rider yes, but horseman? No.
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Everyone starts out for the love of the horse. Sadly money becomes a major motivator and people who ride horses professionally have to make a living - that's when things can start going a little awry. I very much think he is a horseman - he can get a tune out of almost anything and often has horses passed onto him that others haven't had success with.
He is very similar to his good friend Andrew Nicholson.
 
Maybe he simply wasnt selected as hes whip happy and the selectors just didnt want to be seen to condone the way he rides or want the bad publicity.
However good a rider he is how many times can he be warned about over use of the whip and not learn from it?
His competitive nature seems to overcome his common sense.
If he needs to thrash a horse to get round there is something wrong.
Yes there is worse abuse in the horse world but seeing a high profile rider behave like that time and time again is no example for young riders.
Its also very worrying to think about what he does when there are no cameras around.
 
Sandstone1 said:
Maybe he simply wasnt selected as hes whip happy and the selectors just didnt want to be seen to condone the way he rides or want the bad publicity.
However good a rider he is how many times can he be warned about over use of the whip and not learn from it?
His competitive nature seems to overcome his common sense.
If he needs to thrash a horse to get round there is something wrong.
Yes there is worse abuse in the horse world but seeing a high profile rider behave like that time and time again is no example for young riders.
Its also very worrying to think about what he does when there are no cameras around.
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This
 
Tihama said:
This
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no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does.

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person.
But if a false statement causes “serious harm” to a person’s reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
 
OrangeAndLemon said:
no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does.

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person.
But if a false statement causes “serious harm” to a person’s reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
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I wasn't "publishing" anything - merely agreeing with a previous poster's opinion who in turn wasn't "publishing" anything either
 
Fanatical said:
I am not an OT fan - far from it but I do feel very sorry for him and feel like screaming someone give the poor man a break.

He is talented - he a is a horseman. You wouldn't achieve the results he has without being a horseman.

Oli wears his heart on his sleeve - what you see is what you get, and quite frankly, I would much rather that than other 'names' who put on a happy, smiley front in public but are a very different character behind closed doors.

Of all those whinging about him, I wonder just how many ride at a decent level - and ride high powered competition horses, producing them from youngsters. They don't learn by cuddles and kisses. I am not saying that horses need abuse from the whip, absolutely not, but they sometimes need encouraging, and they need to know right from wrong - and you need to be black and white.

To me his horses always look to enjoy their job - no matter how much you 'beat' them, you can't make half a tonne of horse do anything!

I am annoyed with H&H for publishing the recent article from Blair, the day after Burghley when OT had given such a good display of riding and horsemanship through the whole competition - once again producing phenomenal results - all on young horses for the level. They also published it, without half the facts, glossing over the other riders who were also pulled up whilst putting the focus back on OT - wrong in my opinion.
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i had recently been rooting for oli as i thought he had improved his riding and seemed to be more sensitive to the horses. i was extremely disappointed to see the rides he gave both of his horses at badminton and felt the stewards should have made him pull up the grey horse...i have worked for a high profile rider and ridden their horses and their methods got results without overuse of whip or spurs. you dont have to compete at a high level to understand what is right and wrong.... i am aware that things need to be black and white for horses but you also need to be fair to them as well....he didnt use the whip at burghley and made a great show of patting the horses, BUT he was using his spurs very forcefully virtually all the way round. compare the way he rode to the other professionals , it was much more forceful....
 
OrangeAndLemon said:
no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does.

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person.
But if a false statement causes “serious harm” to a person’s reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
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How is it a false statement when hes been seem to do it by thousands of people and been officially warned about it on several occasions????
 
OrangeAndLemon said:
no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does.

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person.
But if a false statement causes “serious harm” to a person’s reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
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Badminton footage showed to the world (in so far as all those who viewed it) that he thrashed two horses around the course. That is proof.
Furthermore, he received an official warning for that. This is also proof that hiis actions were unacceptable.
Further proof that he has continued to use his whip excessively was provided recently, when he received another official warning with regards to this at Blair.

Definition of beat
strike (a person or an animal) repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them, typically with an implement such as a club or whip.

Was he seen to be beating his horses at Badminton in line with that definition? Yes.
 
OrangeAndLemon said:
You have published because you've put it on social media (a forum).
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That only works if its not true. Has he been seen to beat his horses? Yes by thousands of people at badminton both on tv and live.
Has been officially warned about overuse of the whip? Yes several times.
Whats not true there?
 
Sandstone1 said:
That only works if its not true. Has he been seen to beat his horses? Yes by thousands of people at badminton both on tv and live.
Has been officially warned about overuse of the whip? Yes several times.
Whats not true there?
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Exactly - thanks Fetlock & Sandstone 1 - I was just typing something similar :)
 
But he wasn't carded for 'beating ' or 'thrashing' his horses at badminton which would have been a much higher penalty he was warned for over use of the whip which can be using 4 smacks instead of 3. Hardly hard-core abuse that people seem to be making it out it is. His horses aren't bleeding or terrified looking are they? There is some terrible riding at 4 star level and in the other sports that I think needs more focus then OT.
 
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