Oliver Townend - warning for overuse of the whip at blair

Wheels said:
I started this thread because I wanted to know how many warnings a rider needs before action is taken. Oli T has had several whip warnings fairly recently so that's why I singled him out but I don't condone any sort of overuse of whip or spurs or any kind of cruel riding.

The FEI and our affiliated organisations all need to step up to prevent this but the riders need to ultimately take responsibility for their actions, especially the ultra high profile riders.
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Didn't Mary King get banned for two months many years ago because she had two yellow cards in a season?
 
DirectorFury said:
Dumb question and totally not relevant to the thread but I'm confused by the 'not responding to driving aids' bit.
Would that come into action if a horse was refusing to go forward for a long period of time and rider didn't retire?
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It's just to cover all bases I think. A horse reversing into a dangerous situation and a rider being unable to stop it/not getting off to prevent the situation escalating.
 
claracanter said:
Yes, I wondered about this too. She said she didn't have any control and could have run over a member of the public. Also she didn't get off to sort the horse out as she wanted to complete the course so waited for someone to untangle her.
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Is that why she didn't get off I was shouting at the tv at her to get off as she was just sat there! It's not like there was a massive crowd or Marshalls round her assisting her. I wondered if may be she stayed on as easier to keep the horse still that way she's lucky he didn't get even more tangled. Then didn't she go back through the string to get back to the course?
 
DabDab said:
It's just to cover all bases I think. A horse reversing into a dangerous situation and a rider being unable to stop it/not getting off to prevent the situation escalating.
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That makes sense, thanks. I wonder if it's ever been used!

claracanter said:
Yes, I wondered about this too. She said she didn't have any control and could have run over a member of the public. Also she didn't get off to sort the horse out as she wanted to complete the course so waited for someone to untangle her.
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I thought going thru the string was an automatic elimination anyway? Or is that dressage and going outside the boards?
Tbh if there was no one at the horses head I would have stayed on too, mine is an idiot who would have tried to run off as I dismounted so (in my stupid, never ridden at a high level, opinion) it's safer to stay on and keep the horse still. Imagine if it had got her off and run off with the string wrapped round its leg :eek:.

claracanter said:
Didn't Mary King get banned for two months many years ago because she had two yellow cards in a season?
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Yes, https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/mary-king-suspended-2-months-433117.
 
bubsqueaks said:
And this is never mentioned - every cross country fence I saw Oliver jump - both live & on TV & there were quite a few with 3 horses - he patted & praised the horse once over the fence - something never mentioned.
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call me a cynic but i thought that he was only doing that to give a good impression... he doesnt usually pat his horses on the cross country so why at burghley? could it possibly be that he is trying to make up for badminton and also blair?
 
teddypops said:
I totally disagree. That was frightening to watch. The poor horse was exhausted and I can’t believe the rider wasn’t stopped!
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Thank goodness I wasn't the only one to think this - I appreciate the horse has a distinct style but it was not pretty to watch, and I felt she should have been pulled up

Ditto Hazel Towers, maybe it is because I saw her horse bank two wide fences in the first few minutes of footage of her, but it was painful viewing for me and not a pretty/happy combination

But hell, what do I know :p
 
teddypops said:
I totally disagree. That was frightening to watch. The poor horse was exhausted and I can’t believe the rider wasn’t stopped!
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Silvia to me cantered round with ears pricked popping over each fence. No sign of Warren pushing, scrubbing, whipping or spurring. I didn't think she looked exhausted just not up to the faster gallop necessary to make the time and she wasn't asked to be. We all seem to see different things. Does anyone agree that Harry Meade' s ride round with Away Cruising was well done and that the Austrian horse Cosma looked out of her depth and should of been pulled up sooner.
 
waggit said:
Silvia to me cantered round with ears pricked popping over each fence. No sign of Warren pushing, scrubbing, whipping or spurring. I didn't think she looked exhausted just not up to the faster gallop necessary to make the time and she wasn't asked to be. We all seem to see different things. Does anyone agree that Harry Meade' s ride round with Away Cruising was well done and that the Austrian horse Cosma looked out of her depth and should of been pulled up sooner.
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Yes, I'm with you on this
 
Does anyone know who the chestnut was that scrambled over a few skinny brushes, Ian himself said please pull up and that was the last we saw of the horse. Not sure who it was though.
 
I definitely don't think Caroline should have got off to sort the horse out, it would be difficult to hold the front of the horse and release a back leg anyway, and potentially increase the chance of the horse trying to get away. It did pop off very easily as it looked more wrapped round but maybe just caught under the back of a shoe.
 
This is crazy that hes been done again for overuse of the whip - why does that not mean an automatic ban from the next event (which would have been Burghley)? Im delighted he was not chosen for WEG, he absolutely does not deserve it. I hate to think what he does to those horses at home and why people give him their horses to compete I just dont understand.

If they notice overuse of the whip as he's going round surely this is what that red card system is for? Stop him and take him off the course, dont allow him to KEEP hitting the horse.
 
I presume because at Badminton it wasn't a technical rule break, base on how the rule is currently written. Presumably similar at Blair otherwise they would have been yellow cards not verbal warnings.
 
lannerch said:
His horses went beautifully at burghley and finished a lot better than most , if he was bashing them at home as many are claiming there is no way he would get the performance out of them he does, they try their hearts out for him, not the behaviour of a terrorised horse!
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Of course he could get that performance out of them, they know if they refuse or slow down they get wacked for it. So I totally disagree there, the arguement that horses cant be forced to do anything well actually of course they can if someone makes it that unpleasant NOT to do it.

With regards the horse caught in the rope, I personally would have done the same thing - surely we're all taught that in these circumstances its generally safer to stay on the horse where you have more control. If mine did that, she would likely panic if I started to jump off. I dont think she had ideas that she wanted to carry on, with no stearing how could she possibly have done.
 
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MagicMelon said:
This is crazy that hes been done again for overuse of the whip - why does that not mean an automatic ban from the next event (which would have been Burghley)? Im delighted he was not chosen for WEG, he absolutely does not deserve it. I hate to think what he does to those horses at home and why people give him their horses to compete I just dont understand.

If they notice overuse of the whip as he's going round surely this is what that red card system is for? Stop him and take him off the course, dont allow him to KEEP hitting the horse.
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Agree totally
 
Michen said:
Does anyone know who the chestnut was that scrambled over a few skinny brushes, Ian himself said please pull up and that was the last we saw of the horse. Not sure who it was though.
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I think it was Katrin Khoddam - Hazrati with Cosma? They retired.
 
MagicMelon said:
Of course he could get that performance out of them, they know if they refuse or slow down they get wacked for it. So I totally disagree there, the arguement that horses cant be forced to do anything well actually of course they can if someone makes it that unpleasant NOT to do it.

With regards the horse caught in the rope, I personally would have done the same thing - surely we're all taught that in these circumstances its generally safer to stay on the horse where you have more control. If mine did that, she would likely panic if I started to jump off. I dont think she had ideas that she wanted to carry on, with no stearing how could she possibly have done.
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she did carry on?
 
Ollie has not had a yellow card - both times it was a verbal warning. The two yellow cards at Blair are, if you look at the list, the two most common ones that appear to be given out. The continuing after elimination etc or jumping rope. I note that mostly people get a verbal warning for the whip....there are I think 2 yellow cards.
 
MagicMelon said:
Of course he could get that performance out of them, they know if they refuse or slow down they get wacked for it. So I totally disagree there, the arguement that horses cant be forced to do anything well actually of course they can if someone makes it that unpleasant NOT to do it.

With regards the horse caught in the rope, I personally would have done the same thing - surely we're all taught that in these circumstances its generally safer to stay on the horse where you have more control. If mine did that, she would likely panic if I started to jump off. I dont think she had ideas that she wanted to carry on, with no stearing how could she possibly have done.
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You cannot beat a horse over a 4* xc fence that really doesn't want to go. Over the years I've seen a lot of people attempt to use a stick to get a horse to jump, but it never works, it just doesn't. Horses generally don't have the brain to think 'hmm, if I had gone over the jump then I wouldn't have been hit'. Tbh, horses don't really understand whips as punishment in general, that's why they get so confused and upset by being hit in that way. They only really understand whips as an instruction - go faster, move that way, back away etc.

Generally whip use on a xc course is to keep the horse galloping when it is tired and would really rather slow down, to keep a horse straight or to get the horse's attention when it isn't concentrating or really listening to the rider.
 
Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
 
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windand rain said:
Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
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Totally agree with all the above. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink , additionally you can’t get a leading dressage score on anything but a relaxed happy horse.

I was helping out with a farm ride recently by a collection of small jumps, the standard of riding in about 80% of the riders was horrifying, the horses were kicked , slapped kicked again, asked to jump from no stride pulled in the mouth , and this was the majority of riders! And funnily enough the horses frequently refused to jump.

How many of you posting here , baying for OT blood if your honest with yourselves fit into the catagory above?
 
DabDab said:
You cannot beat a horse over a 4* xc fence that really doesn't want to go. Over the years I've seen a lot of people attempt to use a stick to get a horse to jump, but it never works, it just doesn't. Horses generally don't have the brain to think 'hmm, if I had gone over the jump then I wouldn't have been hit'. Tbh, horses don't really understand whips as punishment in general, that's why they get so confused and upset by being hit in that way. They only really understand whips as an instruction - go faster, move that way, back away etc.

Generally whip use on a xc course is to keep the horse galloping when it is tired and would really rather slow down, to keep a horse straight or to get the horse's attention when it isn't concentrating or really listening to the rider.
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I don't know. A 'strong rider' can hassle a horse over jumps that are within its' range. A 4* fence to 4* horse isn't a shock to such a horse that it would be to the average horse. I knew a horse that was frightened of ditches. It's owner couldn't get the horse over them, but her boyfriend could (with heavy use of a whip). Of course the horse remained frightened of ditches so the whole approach was counterproductive.
 
mule said:
I don't know. A 'strong rider' can hassle a horse over jumps that are within its' range. A 4* fence to 4* horse isn't a shock to such a horse that it would be to the average horse. I knew a horse that was frightened of ditches. It's owner couldn't get the horse over them, but her boyfriend could (with heavy use of a whip). Of course the horse remained frightened of ditches so the whole approach was counterproductive.
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Not consistently you can’t.
It shows in their form over a fence, creeps into other aspects of their training and eventually the wheels all fall off.
 
mule said:
I don't know. A 'strong rider' can hassle a horse over jumps that are within its' range. A 4* fence to 4* horse isn't a shock to such a horse that it would be to the average horse. I knew a horse that was frightened of ditches. It's owner couldn't get the horse over them, but her boyfriend could (with heavy use of a whip). Of course the horse remained frightened of ditches so the whole approach was counterproductive.
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Well a ditch isn't really a jump, it's more of an obstacle and a horse can decide (possibly after a lot of hassling) to take a leap of faith over from a standstill. There's a bit of a difference between that and jumping a stonking great fence out of a forward canter.
 
windand rain said:
Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
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Tbh I don't think horses care about being pampered. They prefer a non pampered lifestyle ime. Being pampered is a thing humans enjoy. I agree with you about the kicking though. The big pony club kicks make me wince. I had a dressage instructor who advocated them to get horse more responsive. Ended up with a pissed off uncooperative horse.
 
DabDab said:
Well a ditch isn't really a jump, it's more of an obstacle and a horse can decide (possibly after a lot of hassling) to take a leap of faith over from a standstill. There's a bit of a difference between that and jumping a stonking great fence out of a forward canter.
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Exactlyand the fact the horse still remained terrified of ditches , means the bigger the ditches got, the more terrifying the rider would have to be to get it over, and if there was any way out on the course , the horse would take it.
 
lannerch said:
Exactlyand the fact the horse still remained terrified of ditches , means the bigger the ditches got, the more terrifying the rider would have to be to get it over, and if there was any way out on the course , the horse would take it.
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Agreed. It's also bad training. As another poster said the horse won't jump it consistently. Mine used to be afraid of ditches (not terrified cus i never escalated it). Anyway I let him look at them and didn't pressure him to go over them, then did it on the lunge, then on the lunge with a rider. I'm no expert, by any means but it did the job and it was low stress for both of us.
 
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windand rain said:
Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
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So why does he hit them and use his spurs in the way he does then? What does it achieve)
 
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