Olympic Eventing - just to clarify a couple of things...

TableDancer

TableDancer

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It was a very interesting debate on the team selection last night but I wanted to clear up one point in particular: the Olympic Eventing competition is at 4* not 3* level. I thought this was the case, but have just bothered to look it up on the FEI website - if you want to check, go to page 19 of the document specifying the olympic test for London 2012 for all three disciplines (sorry, meant to post a link but have closed it now). It also specifies a 10 minute XC, which will feel plenty long enough round that terrain, 4* dressage test, 1.25m SJ for the team medals and 1.30m SJ for the top 25 to decide the individual medals. So there you have it.

Also, just to be absolutely clear - I think lots of people understand this but there are a few who don't - there is a team of FIVE for the Olympics ie all riders are part of the team. The best three scores after the first SJ round are those that count for team positions, ie the worst two are discarded. The top 25 individuals then go and SJ again over a shorter, bigger course, taking forward their existing penalties. The position after this second SJ round then decides the individual medals. Simples :)
 
Thanks for that. Is it a recent change of a 4* test for the Olympics? I was always under the impression (obviously wrongly), that the cross country was 3* to allow the less experienced nations to get around safely.

Thanks for clearing that up.
 
sare_bear said:
Thanks for that. Is it a recent change of a 4* test for the Olympics? I was always under the impression (obviously wrongly), that the cross country was 3* to allow the less experienced nations to get around safely.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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I'm pretty sure you are right, it went through a brief 3* incarnation - it was around the time of the Athens Olympics, when they were paranoid about equestrian, and eventing in particular, being thrown out of the Olympics as too expensive and not global enough. So they downgraded the Olympics to encourage wider participation, and I remember walking the Advanced course at Brockenhurst shortly afterwards with an Australian rider who had been at Athens, and he declared that the Athens course was softer than Brockenhurst :o Around the same time, the FEI started a programme to encourage eventing from grass roots up in parts of the world like South America and Eastern Europe.

The IOC insisted they took it back up to 4* as the olympics is supposed to be the ultimate test in every sport, so it makes no sense to hold it at a lower level, however admirable the intentions. The work that has been done to encourage newer nations does seem to have helped, though, and the comoetition for olympic slots is far greeater now, as witnessed by Ireland and Australia failing to gain automatic team qualification :)
 
It has, as far as I know always been a 4* with a few changes over recent years to allow team and individual medals to be decided within one competition it is the only event that did this and the Olympic committee did not think it was fair to get 2 medals for one competition.

I think it was Atlanta where they ran a team competition with a completely separate individual one, this was probably too costly and a logistical nightmare on a smaller site so the new format was brought in with the 2 SJ rounds as the decider.

The cross country is 4* but the riders probably think it is nearer 3* as it tends to be built with the less experienced nations in mind and trying for a happy outcome rather than too many eliminations and falls which has happened in the past. I think though that the riders taking part from any where in the world now have so much more preparation opportunities that it may not be built small at Greenwich.

As for the team who would be a selector:eek:
 
I have another stupid question that needs answering if you don't mind. Can they pick and choose the scores? Say they pick one persons dressage score do they have to use their sj and xc as well or can they mix and match to get the best scores?? For eg
Rider 1= 50 dressage double clear
Rider 2= 32 dressage 40xc 2poles sj.
Could thy have rider 2 dressage and rider 1 jumping scores??


Sorry for the silly question.
 
I seem to remember reading an autobiography, whether it was Pippa Funnell of Princess Anne's I'm not sure, and it was written in one of those that the Olympics was 3*. Interesting to know that it has changed!
 
_Rach_ said:
I have another stupid question that needs answering if you don't mind. Can they pick and choose the scores? Say they pick one persons dressage score do they have to use their sj and xc as well or can they mix and match to get the best scores?? For eg
Rider 1= 50 dressage double clear
Rider 2= 32 dressage 40xc 2poles sj.
Could thy have rider 2 dressage and rider 1 jumping scores??


Sorry for the silly question.
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Not silly, but no, they can't do that or we'd be roping Laura B in to do the dressage phase :D
 
I find it confusing that the selectors would name a horse that has never done a 4* over and above Opposition Buzz, even if that horse has been round the test event and won a 3*. Don't they say that you only know if you've got a 4* horse at your second 4*?! Does it mean OB has some soundness concerns? (I hope not!).

It's not even like Topper is entered at Luhmuhlen to prove himself at 4* level?
 
_Rach_ said:
I have another stupid question that needs answering if you don't mind. Can they pick and choose the scores? Say they pick one persons dressage score do they have to use their sj and xc as well or can they mix and match to get the best scores?? For eg
Rider 1= 50 dressage double clear
Rider 2= 32 dressage 40xc 2poles sj.
Could thy have rider 2 dressage and rider 1 jumping scores??


Sorry for the silly question.
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No they cant, it is the whole competition score of the rider, horse combination that counts. A nice idea though, Carl could do the dressage;),
 
_Rach_ said:
I have another stupid question that needs answering if you don't mind. Can they pick and choose the scores? Say they pick one persons dressage score do they have to use their sj and xc as well or can they mix and match to get the best scores?? For eg
Rider 1= 50 dressage double clear
Rider 2= 32 dressage 40xc 2poles sj.
Could thy have rider 2 dressage and rider 1 jumping scores??


Sorry for the silly question.
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No, it's the persons overall score at the end of 3 phases that counts
 
TableDancer said:
Not silly, but no, they can't do that or we'd be roping Laura B in to do the dressage phase :D
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be positive said:
No they cant, it is the whole competition score of the rider, horse combination that counts. A nice idea though, Carl could do the dressage;),
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be positive said:
Its a good plan, great minds and all that:D
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Thistle said:
No, it's the persons overall score at the end of 3 phases that counts
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:o:cool::D;):o hehe thankyou :)
 
The XC is 4* but has long routes and alternatives at 3* standard to allow less experienced nations to get round whilst accumulating time penalties.

IMO the who thing is fixed before it starts by the qualifing criteria which must allow a certain number of teams from pre set groups of countries. Meaning that in some groups where there is a strong eventing tradition it is harder to qualify that others. Beacause of this it isn't a fair test of the best in the world (I suppose that's what WEG is for) It's done like this to ensure a more even world wide spread of countries.
 
SpottedCat said:
I find it confusing that the selectors would name a horse that has never done a 4* over and above Opposition Buzz, even if that horse has been round the test event and won a 3*. Don't they say that you only know if you've got a 4* horse at your second 4*?! Does it mean OB has some soundness concerns? (I hope not!).

It's not even like Topper is entered at Luhmuhlen to prove himself at 4* level?
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I would be guessing that the selectors have a great deal of inside info on the course and feel that it will be 'soft' so that's why they are chosing to leave one of the best XC horses in the world out of the team
 
Thistle said:
I would be guessing that the selectors have a great deal of inside info on the course and feel that it will be 'soft' so that's why they are chosing to leave one of the best XC horses in the world out of the team
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It's like that competition in was it Russia? Which had the horrible jump that everyone messed up over except the home nation who, it turned out, had been practicing over it for weeks before hand :D

I guess Topper has proven himself over the terrain, if not at the level or in the atmosphere....
 
Thistle said:
The XC is 4* but has long routes and alternatives at 3* standard to allow less experienced nations to get round whilst accumulating time penalties.

IMO the who thing is fixed before it starts by the qualifing criteria which must allow a certain number of teams from pre set groups of countries. Meaning that in some groups where there is a strong eventing tradition it is harder to qualify that others. Beacause of this it isn't a fair test of the best in the world (I suppose that's what WEG is for) It's done like this to ensure a more even world wide spread of countries.
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I think I disagree with this :) I believe there's a good chance that at the end of the competition at Greenwich, those standing on the podium could be described as the best in the world, at least for a while. The qualifying criteria do ensure a wider spread than if the whole thing was a free for all, but all the real contender nations, and riders, do get in through the back door ie individual qualification route in any case. I know we've had a couple of softer XC courses, Sydney was the last really tough one, but in HK time played its part, and a few notables were caught out, and I'm betting Greenwich will be no walk in the park :D
 
But TD you are agreeing with the first part of my statement, that time will be the decider, true 4* horses will make the time and less experienced will get home with penalties
 
TableDancer said:
I think I disagree with this :) I believe there's a good chance that at the end of the competition at Greenwich, those standing on the podium could be described as the best in the world, at least for a while. The qualifying criteria do ensure a wider spread than if the whole thing was a free for all, but all the real contender nations, and riders, do get in through the back door ie individual qualification route in any case. I know we've had a couple of softer XC courses, Sydney was the last really tough one, but in HK time played its part, and a few notables were caught out, and I'm betting Greenwich will be no walk in the park :D
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Surely that's the case for individuals but not for teams though
 
Thistle said:
I would be guessing that the selectors have a great deal of inside info on the course and feel that it will be 'soft' so that's why they are chosing to leave one of the best XC horses in the world out of the team
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I believe that they have basically gone for broke, or rather gold. They have picked a team that, if it all goes according to plan, could/should win gold. They haven't gone for any safe options like NW who will be reliable XC but is not a potential individual medallist. Those they have selected are all arguably, on a good day, capable of winning an individual medal. You can lose two along the way, and still bring back a team gold by the brilliance of the other three. That's what they've gone for, I believe. Higher risk, but potentially higher rewards, and arguably necessary given the strength of the Germans, Aussies and Kiwis...
 
And isn't it true that some of the 'qualified' teams actually haven't qualified their horses for 4* so despite nominally having the slots, they won't be there on the day?
 
SpottedCat said:
I find it confusing that the selectors would name a horse that has never done a 4* over and above Opposition Buzz, even if that horse has been round the test event and won a 3*. Don't they say that you only know if you've got a 4* horse at your second 4*?! Does it mean OB has some soundness concerns? (I hope not!).

It's not even like Topper is entered at Luhmuhlen to prove himself at 4* level?
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Yes, exactly. There's been a lot of guff on Twitter from 'experts' about it being much better to choose 3* combinations over 4* for the Olympics (WTF???!!!)... but the xc will be as testing as they can make it, without annihilating those from lesser nations... so it makes sense to have proven 4* combinations... but the type that don't get blasé over 3* fences having jumped 4* fences...
If OB has been omitted because of his headstrongness xc, which is the only possible justification I can see (unless the team vet saw something?) then he shouldn't be first reserve/substitute either I guess. :( :( :( but he's as quick and agile as a cat and as honest as they come, as well as that breathtaking scope... honestly, think maybe there is something wrong with the test if one of the very very best xc horses in the world is being omitted because the course might not suit his phenomenal way of going!
i suspect the course is more likely to be 3* dimensions with extra technicality... i had it on very good authority that Athens was a 2 1/2* (remember the first (?) water, just running out up a slope, not even a fence there let alone a skinny?! i couldn't believe my eyes!) Beijing was fiendishly twisty and almost impossible to get the time, but I was told it was not HUGE the way they used to be. whatever the 'party line', the course will not be as big as a proper 4* imho...
i think we'll see a horribly skinny skinny on the turn at the bottom of a very steep slope, that sort of thing, something where you'll need absolute 100% trust and accuracy to do it, and a hatful of time pens for the long route or an expensive 20pens if you don't (like the target fence that took so many scalps at the big Champs some years ago, was it the last but one Euros?)
Anyone else placing bets on what questions we'll see?!
 
SpottedCat said:
And isn't it true that some of the 'qualified' teams actually haven't qualified their horses for 4* so despite nominally having the slots, they won't be there on the day?
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There is a certain timeframe for them to qualify, can't remember when it finishes/d. If they can't get qualified in time the slots are passed down the line - it is all fairly efficient!

Thistle, you are right, I agreed with your first statement, it was the second paragraph I didn't :D
 
TableDancer said:
There is a certain timeframe for them to qualify, can't remember when it finishes/d. If they can't get qualified in time the slots are passed down the line - it is all fairly efficient!
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Exactly - I was agreeing with you that the best in the world will get through ;)
 
kerilli said:
Anyone else placing bets on what questions we'll see?!
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Double of open corners with sawn-off back rails??! Would cause carnage like the first time they wre at Badders. Frangible pins at the ready..

Think you're right though - lots and lots of accuracy questions rather than big and bold like the 4*s we're accustomed to here.

Is Sue Benson still the designer? Know a few riders kicked up a stink about that initially, but not heard anything lately...
 
kerilli said:
i think we'll see a horribly skinny skinny on the turn at the bottom of a very steep slope, that sort of thing, something where you'll need absolute 100% trust and accuracy to do it, and a hatful of time pens for the long route or an expensive 20pens if you don't (like the target fence that took so many scalps at the big Champs some years ago, was it the last but one Euros?)
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It was in Italy when Zara had that disastrous SJ round...
 
Ah yes VRIN, I remember now. Yes, better not mention that SJ round, because of course all the omitted riders 'crack under pressure' but those chosen don't!!! ;) ;) ;) The fact is, that can happen to anyone though... Karen O'C did pretty much exactly the same thing at the Worlds.
Ali16, yes, she is... but I had it on very good authority some time ago that there was going to be a lot of influence/overseeing by a top xc designer, so don't panic. ;) ;) ;)
 
Socking big drop to a skinny/corner running downhill, and a bounce of rails into water.

Also expect to see them jumping lots of 'theme' fences - a London Bus/Taxi, maybe a bowler hat, an umbrella, perhaps some fish and chips?! ;)
 
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