Olympic test event- reactions to the XC

cefyl said:
Question to RM (and I am too opposed to Greenwich venue as I strongly object to not having a lasting legacy to benefit the UK equine community or indeed the UK afterwards). ... Maybe the views would be better directed into the public domain more - i.e. Sunday Times, The Times, and so on (not the tabloids though). Radio and TV interviews.
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It has been very evident since the last general election that the mainstream media have been told to "get behind the Olympics". But we have had a lot of - balanced - coverage in the local press (Mercury, Wharf, Docklands, Newsshopper) and in the international press at the Test Event: Al Jazeera, ESPN Brasilia, Fox Sports Australia, Canadian tv, French tv, NZ tv, and Chinese CCTV (a worldwide, English language channel, non-political rather like Al Jazeera. It will also be translated for home consumption. Apparently 17 million tune in to their nightly news. They've been doing a five-part series on the Olympics, the last on opposition). Viewers in every country in the world will have a more complete picture of the equestrian venue controversy than anyone in Britain.

cefyl said:
Even get Prince Charles involved
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His sister is on the board of LOCOG. And an equestrian. It would be a waste of waste.
 
windsorblue said:
Rachel Mawhood said:
...............a worldwide, English language channel, non-political rather like Al Jazeera.QUOTE


You ARE joking! :eek:
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Like she was when she said her post (about the second or third before last) would be her final one. Like her calling equestrian sports 'elite' when she herself admitted to being educated at boarding school. Even learning to ride there too. Not that anyone would find that to be a privileged (AKA elite) upbringing. :rolleyes:
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Wondermare said:
They were very, very excited and controlling them was a bit like nailing jelly to a wall. We had several complaints from fence judges and fellow spectators, and whilst I can understand their ire, I also feel that our local green space has been taken away from us and we have been given no local legacy.
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Sorry, but thats ridiculous. If you cant keep control of 29 children, you should not be taking them to an event where 1/2 tonne animals are galloping about! If you were getting complaints from fence judges, the kids were obviously posing a risk to the riders which is very serious. I also wish people surrounding the park would stop calling it "our green space". The Olympics is British, it must be held somewhere. After its finished, the park will be back to exactly as it was before (if not better, I imagine as part of the deal the Olympic people will have to plough a bit of money into the park afterwards)!

Wondermare said:
My feeling is, if you're trying to appease local residents by involving them, make it a pleasurable experience for them - if you don't want noise and excitement, don't invite schoolchildren.
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Again crazy thing to say - many schoolchildren are very well behaved!
 
MagicMelon said:
I also wish people surrounding the park would stop calling it "our green space".
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Greenwich Park is our green space. It is a community asset, not the BEF's private property, or LOCOG's. The clue is in the two words: "Greenwich" and "park".

MagicMelon said:
The Olympics is British, it must be held somewhere.
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But the 2012 equestrian events do not have to be held in Greenwich Park. Indeed, Greenwich Park is the least appropriate venue for these events.

MagicMelon said:
After its finished, the park will be back to exactly as it was before
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No, it won't. There is already irreversible damage done by LOCOG in its preparation of the cross-country course. You can't put branches back on trees. Some trees may die as a direct result of LOCOG's development. If the acid grasslands are restored, it will take a decade of specialist management and a lot of money.

MagicMelon said:
(if not better, I imagine as part of the deal the Olympic people will have to plough a bit of money into the park afterwards)!
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Imagine away. LOCOG have refused to put any money aside for reinstatement. LOCOG have no plans at all for replacing trees that die as a result of their development. Tim Hadaway is on record saying that he won't know what has to be reinstated until after he has damaged it. Yet planning condition 1 (of the 42 plus conditions) set by Greenwich Council was that a reinstatement plan had to be agreed before LOCOG started any work. But LOCOG twisted the Council's arm and started work without anything legally binding was put in place. There is still nothing legally binding LOCOG to reinstate Greenwich Park.
 
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Rachel Mawhood said:
Greenwich Park is our green space. It is a community asset, not the BEF's private property, or LOCOG's. The clue is in the two words: "Greenwich" and "park".





I think you will find that Greenwich Park is one of the Royal Parks of London.
Thereby part of the hereditary possessions of the Crown.
I am sure if the "Owner" had any huge objection to one of her parks being used, she would have made her feelings VERY clear. :D

The public does not have any legal right to use the Parks, as public access depends on the grace and favour of the Crown, although there may be public rights of way across the land.
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windsorblue said:
I think you will find that Greenwich Park is [et seq]
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There you go, quoting Wikipedia without acknowledgement.

Here's something more recent, from the debate on the Localism Bill, Public Bill Committees, 15 February 2011, 10:30 am

Andrew Stunell (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government): It is extremely likely that Greenwich park will turn out to be an asset of community value ...
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Rachel Mawhood said:
Evidently, am going to have to be selective about not commenting, when this forum is being used to propagate LOCOG's disinformation, as it would appear that no one else is bothered about disabusing the people of LOCOG's lies.



LOCOG originally wanted the arena in the tilt yard of the National Maritime Museum (north of the Queens House). You can still find folksy artist's impressions of this on the web. There is A RAILWAY TUNNEL not far below the tilt yard (the Greenwich main line). That's why they had to move the arena because it might have caused the roof of the tunnel to collapse. But the so-called "government permission" to use Greenwich Park for the equestrian events did not include siting the arena within the Park.



More lies. LOCOG do not have planning permission to use Circus Field because Greenwich Council do not have the power to give that permission. Ownership of Circus Field is vested part with the Crown and part with the earls of Dartmouth. Two laws are relevant: the Metropolitan Commons Act 1866 and the Supplemental Act for Blackheath of 1871.

The Metropolitan Commons Act 1866 states



Blackheath was then designated as a “metropolitan common” in the Supplemental Act for Blackheath of 1871.

Some of these laws were brought in to prevent powerful landowners from using their knowledge of state processes and their friends in high places to appropriate public land for their personal benefit, shut out the lumpen proletariat and disenfranchise them. Sometimes called “class robbery”, and all over the country it led to the destruction of whole villages. Read the history of enclosures/inclosures in this country. Without it, there would probably be no such area as Circus Field now, or any part of Blackheath open to the public.

Since 1871, Circus Field has been a protected metropolitan common and, thus , subject to quite rigorous legal control. LOCOG seems not have noticed that when it decided to encroach on the Circus Field without asking first. LOCOG's line on this has been that they will seek the relevant permissions. But you cannot obtain consent to do something that is unlawful.
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Rachel is in fact correct on all of these points and a great many others although not all. Personally I think the arrogant 'like it or lump it' type comments need to stop. There are a great many people in the area who do not have an opinion either way but are frankly bemused at all the fighting, misinformation and lies told by one side or the other to get their own way. One thing is for sure, with comments like some of those on this thread it is no wonder the residients of Greenwich and more importantly Lewisham and Blackheath think that horses are the preserve of rich snobs who could not care less about lesser mortals because that is exactly the impression being given. Rachel is somewhat misguided but she lives there and is passionate about it for all the right reasons. Perhaps that might be respected as personally I applaud her for being brave enough to come on here, use her real name and be lynched by this forum. It is not great reading.
 
SusannaF said:
Lewisham has had its own riding school for forty plus years and it's definitely not full of rich snobs. Just FYI.
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And for yours the borough has more than one licensed establishment but I can assure you most of the people on Lewisham High Street will assume riding is for the rich snobs. I spent a hour waiting for someone while the test event was on at Lewisham bus station and spent the time talking to the locals. I was rather surprised actually, there is was no animosoty towards horses in general ( a horse drawn hearse went past while I was there, much appreciated) but they seemed very ill informed.
 
The type of horse that is popular for eventing may not be the best horse for this venue and the selectors will have a tough job to exclude a popular rider and horse because it is not suitable for what has been described by a rider as a BMX track
 
I gather that, in the current issue of Horse & Hound, Tim Hadaway
says that in 2012 in Greenwich Park spectators will need maps and clearer routes around the course, and that more cross-country tickets than the present figure of 55,000 "could be available. We are currently undertaking crowd modelling and traffic work but I hope to increase that number."

What planet is he on? We worked out that each spectator will have 2 square metres to stand on. No requirement for maps - and no chance of safely squeezing in more spectators for the cross-country.

Why is Hadaway making these wild promises? To get the IOC to take the heat off?
 
Mixed feelings re greenwich. Yes it is a beautiful venue which would lend itself very well to staging the events. And im pretty sure hosting it there will not be as horrific to its environment as people are saying - the world will keep turning and greenwich park will still continue to be - I'd bet a 2-3 months and you wouldnt even know it had been there.

However I cannot get over the fact there will be no lasting equestrian facilities left from london. It an obscene amount of money to the just 'throw away'. We are all paying out of our own pockets to host these games and they have put them in a venue where there will be no lasting facilities. Also the venue is pretty poor on capacity when you compare with events like burghley or badminton - I missed out on tickets and to be honest im left feeling slightly short changed and uninspired by the whole thing - something I never thought I would feel like.
 
georgiegirl said:
Mixed feelings re greenwich. Yes it is a beautiful venue which would lend itself very well to staging the events. And im pretty sure hosting it there will not be as horrific to its environment as people are saying - the world will keep turning and greenwich park will still continue to be - I'd bet a 2-3 months and you wouldnt even know it had been there.

However I cannot get over the fact there will be no lasting equestrian facilities left from london. It an obscene amount of money to the just 'throw away'. We are all paying out of our own pockets to host these games and they have put them in a venue where there will be no lasting facilities. Also the venue is pretty poor on capacity when you compare with events like burghley or badminton - I missed out on tickets and to be honest im left feeling slightly short changed and uninspired by the whole thing - something I never thought I would feel like.
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Good post Georgiegirl, and totally how I feel about this. I have been to two Olympics and was really looking forward to seeing the Olympics here. I volunteered, but was not picked. Applied for tickets, didnt get any, so I cannot go to my home Olympics, because they are being held in a venue that is too small and on top of that will give no lasting legacy to Equestrian sports in this country, the whole thing is just crazy.
 
badattitude said:
And that sort of tart, know it all response is precisely what I was referring to in the first place. There is no need.
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Sorry about that, we're all snappy on this thread.

I would have added that the Greenwich test event does seem (from testimony of a teacher in this thread) to have sparked the interest of a lot of local youngsters in horse sports. Hopefully Shooters' Hill will actually happen, and will do something to keep that interest up...

I went to the riding school in Lewisham during a half term and it was full of kids from Brixton and Eltham who'd travelled miles across London to muck out.

But while tempers have gotten frayed, I think that people would be more broadly sympathetic to RM's aims if she hadn't already held forth elsewhere online and dismissed horse sports are elitist, and had quite such a finger-wagging attitude. It gave the impression that she will take any line – including anti horse sports – to make her point.

People have made good points about how equestrianism is over something of a barrel here – it's fighting not to be dropped from the Olympics full stop. As I, and others, said earlier, there's not much point in giving ordinary riders an earbashing, or declaring that we won't have any more medal winners ever if Greenwich goes ahead. To mix my metaphors, it's better to build bridges than to shoot out of every buttonhole and break Godwin's Law (with the untermenschen comment).
 
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Rachel Mawhood said:
It has been very evident since the last general election that the mainstream media have been told to "get behind the Olympics". But we have had a lot of - balanced - coverage in the local press (Mercury, Wharf, Docklands, Newsshopper) and in the international press at the Test Event: Al Jazeera, ESPN Brasilia, Fox Sports Australia, Canadian tv, French tv, NZ tv, and Chinese CCTV (a worldwide, English language channel, non-political rather like Al Jazeera. It will also be translated for home consumption. Apparently 17 million tune in to their nightly news. They've been doing a five-part series on the Olympics, the last on opposition). Viewers in every country in the world will have a more complete picture of the equestrian venue controversy than anyone in Britain.



His sister is on the board of LOCOG. And an equestrian. It would be a waste of waste.
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No one outside of London will read the local press. The foreign press may mention it but who will care? I spend 50% of time in the US and no one I have spoken to is aware of the controversy going on and my mother in law was a VP of the largest US tv network and the people I know there at the network are oblivious to the Greenwich debate. You feel so strongly with valid reason and yet you do seem to have a very defeatist attitude. Have you actually put the points to UK journalists like Simon Barnes? "Getting behind the Olympics" is not a reason the UK media would use to delibarately hide this saga. Or is HHO an easy target to get a point across without having to dig up the courage to try a wider audience. We all know the UK media - print, tv, and radio love a story, have you even contacted conservation groups to take over from you to get the issue into the UK population.

And HOW do you know it would be a "waste of a waste"? As you obviously from your remarks have not bothered to try.
 
cefyl said:
Have you actually put the points to UK journalists
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Yup.

cefyl said:
"Getting behind the Olympics" is not a reason the UK media would use to delibarately hide this saga.
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Forgive me but that is a naive thing to say. People have been removed from their posts for being not behind the Olympics.

cefyl said:
have you even contacted conservation groups
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Yup - Zoological Society, Bats Conservation, etc etc - they are all silent. Only the small organisations are prepared to speak up.

cefyl said:
yet you do seem to have a very defeatist attitude.
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No one who knows me would ever call me defeatist.

cefyl said:
And HOW do you know it would be a "waste of a waste"? As you obviously from your remarks have not bothered to try.
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Sorry, that was meant to be "waste of time", of course. Practically speaking, how much influence do you think HRH The Prince of Wales has in this area. He is not a noted equestrian. LOCOG would say that we were trying to embarrass HRH The Princess Royal. I think the instincts of everyone on the NOGOE committee is to be realistic about what the royal family can achieve, which is practically nothing. Mark Phillips' remarks carry weight because he is the Chef d'Equipe of the United States Eventing Team, not because he was once married to a princess.
 
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SusannaF said:
equestrianism is over something of a barrel here – it's fighting not to be dropped from the Olympics full stop.
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Even if we were to agree to disagree on urban horse-riding, how does the BEF think that the Greenwich venue promotes the interests of riders - being "showcased" at the so-called centre of the Olympics - if, in doing so, they squander a once-in-a-lifetime £60m windfall for the sport, which could have been spent on upgrading existing equine facilities. Even Mark Phillips himself, who knows about these things, thinks that UK equestrian facilities are falling behind those of other countries.

How is it promoting the interests of riders to squander a £60m windfall?
 
Rachel Mawhood said:
Yup.

Forgive me but that is a naive thing to say. People have been removed from their posts for being not behind the Olympics.

No one who knows me would ever call me defeatist.

QUOTE]

Look who is being naive - you. You do not know me at all. Go on name names of people who have been removed from their posts for not being behind London 2012. The media folk I have spoken to in the past week have been unaware of the points you are raising against Greenwich. PR and being persistent works wonders.

And no I do not know YOU, but you do come across as defeatist because every reply is "yes but; no one will listen; sob sob". Have the b@!!* to get out there and stick up for what you TRUELY believe in with accurate facts and figures. Lynching was outlawed in the UK decades ago. No use hiding behind the pretence that everyone in the media has a "fright and flight" attitude to this story because they do not.
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SusannaF said:
But while tempers have gotten frayed, I think that people would be more broadly sympathetic to RM's aims if she hadn't already held forth elsewhere online and dismissed horse sports are elitist, and had quite such a finger-wagging attitude. It gave the impression that she will take any line – including anti horse sports – to make her point.
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^^Agree. New to this thread today and reading through from beginning to end I can't help but wonder how it would have gone if Rachel had posted a call to arms of the equestrian community to help move the events rather than come on and insult the majority of people here as elitist and uncaring about the local Greenwich community. I suspect that she would have achieved quite a number of supporters had she approached it a different way given the potential that the Olympic legacy could have provided in a world-class facility to use in the future and the general feeling of the HHO community that the events would be better held somewhere else anyway. That could have been exploited and used to her benefit and instead she has succeeded in angering the community she wishes to help her instead.
 
What I'm going to do is sit back and wait to see if what I think will happen, actually does. But by then, of course, it will be too late and the I told you so's will have a bitter and hollow, useless ring...

RM - I think you'll be proved right. Sadly.
 
Rachel Mawhood said:
Even if we were to agree to disagree on urban horse-riding, how does the BEF think that the Greenwich venue promotes the interests of riders - being "showcased" at the so-called centre of the Olympics - if, in doing so, they squander a once-in-a-lifetime £60m windfall for the sport, which could have been spent on upgrading existing equine facilities. Even Mark Phillips himself, who knows about these things, thinks that UK equestrian facilities are falling behind those of other countries.

How is it promoting the interests of riders to squander a £60m windfall?
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Straw man, my friend. I'm telling you that the BEF is not bargaining from a strong position. Which might be why they are not making this point about the legacy strongly. That is what we are trying to explain to you.
 
The legacy argument is a mute point. What you are all missing is that the majority of the 60m spend will be on temporary things anyway.....security, temporary stands, media centre, data centre etc Even if the equestrian disciplines were moved to an existing facility a huge amount of money would still be wasted on 'temporary' infrastructure.
 
Rambo said:
The legacy argument is a mute point. What you are all missing is that the majority of the 60m spend will be on temporary things anyway.....security, temporary stands, media centre, data centre etc Even if the equestrian disciplines were moved to an existing facility a huge amount of money would still be wasted on 'temporary' infrastructure.
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So NOT a mute point unless you believe 60m is a trivial amount. If moved to a facility with much of the basic infrastructure required in place already there would be a huge saving out of the 60m (which from all accounts is a low estimate considering the amount to be spent following the games for some years after). There always is going to be a certain amount of waste spending for media, and so on, but the more left after to benefit the UK equine industry the better.

The BEF and other UK equestrian sport organisations constantly moan about lack of UK facilities this was their chance to really push for it. But sadly like much else they will whinge about it long after 2012 through letting certain parties who have no vested interest in the UK at all except for a wish to wield power through the IOC and FEI govern OUR Olympic equine events.
 
I was born in Stratford. Not Shakespear country but East London. E15! I lived there for 29ys and my parents are still there some 15 years after I left. From a VERY young age all I ever asked for was a pony. Of course I never got one and was told that I had to wait until I could buy my own. We never had a "space" like Greenwich but used to go to West Ham Park or "The Wreck". The only horses I saw were Black Beauty and Champion the Wonderhorse (also loved White Horses) thanks to our black and white TV. The closest I ever got apart from the rag and bone man's steed was our family holiday at the caravan in Clacton where I was allowed to go on the beach donkeys and if I was very lucky I went to the local riding school there. We went to Clacton for at least 12 years until my Grandad sold the caravan.

When I turned 17 I got a job so left college as I was told by my parents that a job in a BANK was much better than doing A level art so I left. Coming from the East End a job in a back was like winning the lottery! Within about 6 months of working I found a riding school in South London and 2 years later I bought my very first horse. My mum was horrified but I think secretly proud that I had done what she had told me to do some 15 years earlier. Of course my parents that it was such a waste of money and that I would "grow" out of it.

I left the bank but still work in London. I commute every day and still have a horse who is still at the yard in South London. I moved from East London to South London/Kent borders as it was cheaper to commute and buy a house there than do the typical East End move into Essex.

I see the stadium when I visit my parents and feel a tingle up my spine as it is so exciting!....

I was even fortunate enough to get tickets for the X/C at Greenwich for 2012 and I honeslty think I may burst before then (and I am now 44!!!).

Yes I read the concerns re Greenwich but I assume that the decision makers know better than I and now I am behind it 100%.

You may lose "your" park for a while but then you are lucky to have that space in the first place..... I never did as a child......We made do with what we had and didn't complain. I went to Greenwich when I was old enough to use public transport without my parents and thought I was in the countryside so I am afraid I cannot quite see the side of Greenwich that is "deprived" as for me as a child I though it was magic.

This country is becoming a nation of moaners and seems to be losing that spirit of making the most of what we have.

I was there in Trafalgar Square waving my flag when we won the games (as I had been when the Rugby team showed off their world cup and when we won the ashes and I lined the roads at the Queen Mothers funeral too). Huge moments and I just wanted to be there for that moment in history.

I was brought up very simply to enjoy the moment.

The Olympics will be one brief moment in our lives and I find it so hard to understand my friends who are leaving the country for 3 weeks to avoid it!?!?!? What will they say to their granchildren!!?!? Where is their spirit and HUMOUR???

When did so many people stop being proud as there is still so much for ua all to be proud of and I am very proud we got the games and I know I shall have a lump in my throat all day when I go to Greenwich X/C 2012 a I will be so proud.

I'm only sad I didn't get tickets for everything as I will be cheering on every sport and will be taking quite a few days off of work to watch it. The only time my humour may fail me is if I cannot take time off as I have to cover for someone who is going off to Florida!! :o)
 
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