On death and dying.

[Hebegebe]

Interesting quote here:

http://www.westernhunter.com/Pages/Vol04Issue09/predators.html

"Wolves are coursing predators that chase prey over long distances in open habitat and have a relatively low success rate, selecting substandard prey."

 

[wildduck]

Quite easy that one "ugly" (sorry. i'm sure you are not in the least ugly).My cause is to defend my right to hunt and shoot,within the laid down law of the land.My view is that the next step in the so called "anti" brigade would be to attack us who are the "shooting society".and that our sport will be the next to become endanged. (ZIG s photo? got that bit) he does not recieve mail too .. I wonder why? Still :
You Ask:
All Pros are "Doing what they enjoy and earning a living"
All Antis are "Doing what they belive in" (in my view).

I shoot and kill vermin, shoot duck and geese as my sport and so EVERYONE has a right to his own SPORT.

 

[rafferty]

Hebe

I know what your saying, I just dont quite agree that hunting is replacing natural predators. Just my opinion.

 

[rafferty]

I am but thats for another forum !.
I don't think anti hunting and anti shooting are mutually exclusive.
Quote {I shoot and kill vermin, shoot duck and geese as my sport and so EVERYONE has a right to his own SPORT} yes so long as its moraly and legaly exceptable.
Ducks are my favourite animal and my favourite meat, how does that work. Now if you could justify ME eating duck I'd be a happy man.

 

[Eagle_day]

That is indeed interesting. And yet I've heard that African hunting dogs have the highest predator kill-rate of all, being successful in 50% of all hunts they undertake. Surely their methods aren't that different to those of wolves?

 

[wildduck]

natural predation? I'm at the top of that list as "man"and as such am a natural preditor.As I cannot run fast,creep/pounce/etc as other preditors in the ecology chain i use my intelligence and therefore invented the shotgun. perhaps the animals/birds that I hunt/shoot will one day overtake "man" and hunt me,some animals in Africa are "man hunters" are they not?natural preditors are changing to other sources for food like our town/city dustbins,blame the rubbish tips/easy food chains,and even us householders for that.So why should one waste energy hunting when food is easy available in the dustbin of an inner city,or country cottage? Just a thought there?

 

[wildduck]

just noticed "why am i shown as a stranger" and you addict, and journeyman? still been called worse in my time.

 

[wurzel]

Consider yourself humiliated, Tim
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20041003/ai_n12910763/?tag=untagged

No Zig. Absolutely hopeless !!!

You are saying I should be humiliated by a cock and bull story in the Sunday Mirror !!!

I think you need to read the little challenge again.

Show me the letter, Zig. Show me the letter.

A letter to an Exmoor hunt telling the Master to order farmers to breed Foxes.

I can see Ian Baker sitting at my kitchen table now. Ordering me to breed foxes !!!

You really are a hopeless liar !!!

Have you got the slightest clue what you are talking about ??

 

[zigzagzig]

Faggus, if you want to be humiliated by a cock or a bull, that is entirely a matter for you.

 

[wurzel]

Faggus, if you want to be humiliated by a cock or a bull, that is entirely a matter for you.

So where is the letter_

Are you ready to concede that you are a liar and you made it up?

Do you get all your hunting information from the Sunday Mirror?

 

[zigzagzig]

If you want the letter, simply ask your hunt secretary for it. It'll be on file.

Are you stating that the Chairman of the MFHA did not write to hunt masters complaining of the shortage of foxes?

If the Sunday Mirror isn't to your liking, here's the story covered by the Sunday Times:

"One of the (hunt) protesters’ key arguments — that foxes need to be destroyed — has been undermined, however, by the discovery of a letter sent by the Master of Foxhounds Association to masters and hunt chairmen.

Complaining about “a shortage of foxes”, it berates landowners who did too little to encourage the animals to breed.

The letter, circulated last March, has come to light following the leak of documents from the Countryside Alliance. It is referred to in an e-mail from Simon Hart, chief executive of the alliance, to Lord Daresbury, the chairman of the foxhounds association. Hart warns the letter would be damaging if it were made public. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article486999.ece?token=null&offset=24&page=3

 

[wurzel]

If you want the letter, simply ask your hunt secretary for it. It'll be on file.

Are you stating that the Chairman of the MFHA did not write to hunt masters complaining of the shortage of foxes?

If the Sunday Mirror isn't to your liking, here's the story covered by the Sunday Times:

"One of the (hunt) protesters’ key arguments — that foxes need to be destroyed — has been undermined, however, by the discovery of a letter sent by the Master of Foxhounds Association to masters and hunt chairmen.

Complaining about “a shortage of foxes”, it berates landowners who did too little to encourage the animals to breed.

The letter, circulated last March, has come to light following the leak of documents from the Countryside Alliance. It is referred to in an e-mail from Simon Hart, chief executive of the alliance, to Lord Daresbury, the chairman of the foxhounds association. Hart warns the letter would be damaging if it were made public. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article486999.ece?token=null&offset=24&page=3

I asked the hunt secretary and it is not.

No letter received.

I am stating that the Chairman of the MFHA did not write to the Minehead harriers complaining of the shortage of foxes.

It would seem a bizarre subject for a letter.

he may well be angry to us simple farmers down here.....as we do not encourage foxes to breed. We kill them.

About time you stumped up the letter you little liar.

 

[zigzagzig]

Your secretary is either lying or mistaken. You seem to be suggesting that the journalists on both the Sunday Times and Sunday Mirror are making up the story about the MFHA complaining about the shortage of foxes. At the same time you imply that Simon Hart of the Countryside Alliance wrote to the MFHA complaining about a letter which never existed.

Hunts have always encouraged foxes to breed. In Victorian times they were at least open about this. Nowadays, they have to resort to cheap lies, covering up their tracks, looking over their shoulders. No backbone!

 

[rosie fronfelen]

effing crap!!!!!! you write an absolute load of boll---s ! you call yourself a "countryside expert"- well,well,well! sunday mirror? say no more. lol!! i said the other day that you weren't a liar, just tup! but i was wrong, you are a liar, can't do anything with liars!!!(thieves yes, just chop their fingers off- but liars- no.)

 

[zigzagzig]

Once again, the pros here show that, defeated in reasoned debate, they resort to childish name-calling.

But we antis are tolerant folk and so will put up with your bad manners.

 

[samsonsoup]

But we antis are tolerant folk and so will put up with your bad manners.

If that's the case then you of all people should know about tarring us all with the same brush.

 

[wurzel]

Your secretary is either lying or mistaken. You seem to be suggesting that the journalists on both the Sunday Times and Sunday Mirror are making up the story about the MFHA complaining about the shortage of foxes. At the same time you imply that Simon Hart of the Countryside Alliance wrote to the MFHA complaining about a letter which never existed.

Hunts have always encouraged foxes to breed. In Victorian times they were at least open about this. Nowadays, they have to resort to cheap lies, covering up their tracks, looking over their shoulders. No backbone!

I am not suggesting anything other than the fact that no letter was received.

Again, if you would like to present some evidence of hunts on Exmoor encouraging foxes to breed......but I wont hold my breath.

Until then I think you are a naughty little liar.

It is only a silly little internet forum but until you come up with the goods you are a liar.

Or.

We can meet at a pub on Exmoor this weekend have alittle pint together and then show me how we encourage foxes.

 

[zigzagzig]

I've already provided evidence: reports in two national newspapers which quote directly from the letter and Simon Hart's response. Why would this letter be such a surprise? Encouraging foxes to breed has always been played a prominent role among hunts.

 

[wurzel]

I've already provided evidence: reports in two national newspapers which quote directly from the letter and Simon Hart's response. Why would this letter be such a surprise? Encouraging foxes to breed has always been played a prominent role among hunts.

No you have provided no evidence.

This letter would be a surprise because we do not lack foxes.

How have Exmoor hunts always encouraged foxes?

A tough question I know.

 

[Hebegebe]

I've already provided evidence: reports in two national newspapers which quote directly from the letter and Simon Hart's response. Why would this letter be such a surprise? Encouraging foxes to breed has always been played a prominent role among hunts.

That is not even grammatical

 

[wurzel]

I've already provided evidence: reports in two national newspapers which quote directly from the letter and Simon Hart's response. Why would this letter be such a surprise? Encouraging foxes to breed has always been played a prominent role among hunts.

That is not even grammatical

That is the least of its problems !!

 

[zigzagzig]

Referring to reports in two national newspapers which quote directly from the MFHA letter, and the Countryside Alliance's response to it is clearly evidence.

 

[Herne]

No. Actually it is clearly "hearsay".

“Evidence” would be copies of the actual letter and e-mail, so that everyone could look at them and judge the content for themselves.

It is patently obvious that if the letter and e-mail did say what you claim, then they would be pasted all over every anti-hunting website and you would have no difficulty in posting them in their entirety here for everyone to see.

As it is, however, the letter contains no references whatsoever to breeding foxes, or even encouraging them to breed. None. Not one word.

What it actually refers to is the fact that in some areas foxes are being over-culled by other methods - and once again I look forward to the twisted gyrations of the anti-hunter trying to turn a complaint about over-culling of foxes into a bad thing...

What Simon Hart’s e-mail subsequently warned about was the danger that the letter could be deliberately misquoted and misrepresented to imply that hunts should encourage people to breed foxes – and lookee here – he was right!

 

[Herne]

[quote - Box_of_Frogs]You're all missing a major point.

What is the difference between fox hunting and bear baiting, dog fights and cock fighting? The last 3 "sports" have been recognised as barbaric and stopped. But all have the same formula: human beings enjoying the one-sided fun process of killing animals.

Can anyone provide a convincing and reasoned argument on why fox hunting is different? [/quote]

Try this as a starting point:

http://www.fitzwilliamhunt.com/FAQ/badgbait.htm

 

[zigzagzig]

Actually, reports of the letter do constitute evidence. Whether a court etc. would deem the evidence "hearsay" or not is irrelevant given that, as far as I can tell, an internet forum isn't a court.

Since you appear to have access to the letter can I ask you the following:

1. Can you confirm that the letter exists and was sent to hunt masters?

2. In it does the chairman of the MFHA refer to a "problem" of a "shortage of foxes"?

3. In the letter does the Chairman ask hunt masters to be firmer with hunt subscribers "who do not keep foxes"?

4. According to the newspaper reports, what Hart actually said in his email was that the Chairman of the MFHA in his letter advocates "the artificial enhancement of a 'pest species' for purely sporting benefit" . Are you saying he didn't say this?

5. Finally, given that the MFHA letter is so innocuous, would you be kind enough to reproduce it on this forum in its entirety?

 

[Herne]

You are, deliberately I expect, missing the point.

For you to prove that the MFHA have done as you suggest - YOU need to produce a letter that says what you say it did.

There is absolutely no point me producing one or a hundred letters that don't say what you say one did. If I produce a letter, I will immediately be open to accusations of "producing the wrong letter" or "editing one" or something. It’s your claim – you have to substantiate it.

Instead of doing that, you are asking me to prove a negative – which is, as we all know impossible.

I can see from discussions of this issue on another website – four and a half years ago – that I was convinced then that the letter did not say what the anti in question claimed. YOU post the letter that YOU are talking about and then we can dissect it line by line, word by word.

If there was such a letter then, as I say, it would be all over the anti-hunt websites and you should have no trouble in producing it.

If you can't produce it, then that makes it seem pretty likely that it does not exist in the form that you suggest.

 

[Hebegebe]

He does spend rather a lot of the time deliberately missing the point.

 

[Herne]

Funny how selective they are. One moment it's "evidence this..." and "evidence that..." when they think they've found a bit and the next moment it's suddenly irrelevant whether it's evidence or not when they realise that they haven't...

<<Actually, reports of the letter do constitute evidence....>>

Some people would claim that reports of Elvis serving behind the fish counter at Tesco's also constitute evidence, but most of us require a little more convincing than that...

 

[zigzagzig]

What utter tosh.

- "you are asking me to prove a negative – which is, as we all know impossible."

"Jane, can you go into the garden and check that the big black dog has gone?"

"Yes, it's not there any more."

"Thanks!"

Let me ask you this: if the letter from the MFHA was so harmless, why did Simon Hart say that the Chairman was advocating "the artificial enhancement of a 'pest species' for purely sporting benefit"?

I find myself in the likely position of sharing Hart's view: that the MFHA was urging landowners to encourage foxes to breed. When you and Tim accuse me of making this up, you are in effect accusing Hart of the same thing.

 

[Hebegebe]

Sigh

what he said was that it would be interpreted as calling for the artificial enhancement of foxes

"This can only be interpreted by the outside world as suspicious - the artificial enhancement of a 'pest species' for purely sporting benefit."

You are using Simon's Hart's concern about how a letter would be interpreted to try and prove that that is what the letter said.

Incidently one of the aspects of Hunting is that people who hunt are in an ideal position to monitor population fluctuations in their prey.