On lead dog badly injured by a wild boar/domestic pig hybrid sow

[Burnttoast]

On forestry they do plant more areas of mixed species within commercial woodlands now and without commercial woodlands red squirrels would be in an even more precarious position than they are .
Everything thing is interlinked and complicated and I think it’s inevitable that some early schemes will fail as everything is a learning curve that’s not an excuse for not trying things .
Theres some great content on YouTube particularly good is seeing how quickly straightened streams and rivers develop ecosystems when they are allowed to take a more natural route .

I find river rewiggling really pleasing. Now we just have to keep sewage etc out of them

 

[cauda equina]

What about all the people running rewilding projects? Don't they know about it? One of the ones local to me is Wild East, where the founders (landowners and farmers naturally, but they have to lead the way) have projects on their own estates but also run a campaign that anyone can sign up to where you agree to devote 20% of whatever's available to you (windowbox upwards) to nature. It's raising awareness and joining people up. You can look on their map and see who's doing what. They have everything from individuals to farmers, local councils, rugby clubs, churches. https://www.wildeast.co.uk/we-pledge#MapOfDreams

That's interesting about Wild East but I wonder why they chose a lynx head as their logo
When the introduction of lynx to Thetford Forest was mooted some years ago it was hugely controversial and afaik has been abandoned - or is it still on someone's wishlist?

 

[Esmae]

All pigs can be extremely shirty if they have youngsters or not in some cases. Frankly I am only surprised that this hasn't happened more often. Poor dog. Rewilding is a brilliant concept but to do it properly and restore all species we really need to vacate the place first.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am in year three of experimenting with changing the management of one of my paddocks to encourage more wild flowers .
it’s just under four acres and has not been in cultivation since before the war .it’s natural unimproved type grass .
The good is the that the range and amount of wild flowers has increased enormously this year is the third summer in the evening the field is full of moths which is something I don’t remember seeing to extent I do now and it really getting going the bad news is the issue with thistles it’s clear that without intervention it would end up as four acres of thistles .
This year I have topped the dense patches but I don’t think that going to be enough I might have to spray in places .I have never had to spray that field before as I was topping it more early in the season .
It’s hard to get used to the paddock looking untidy .

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I don't think that spraying will do much for the wildlife. Can you just cut down the thistles and leave the other plants

 

[Goldenstar]

That's interesting about Wild East but I wonder why they chose a lynx head as their logo
When the introduction of lynx to Thetford Forest was mooted some years ago it was hugely controversial and afaik has been abandoned - or is it still on someone's wishlist?

I don’t know anything about this but I would think cats would be much less danger to the public than pigs for example .
I think with reintroduction of any of these top predators the question has to be is there really enough food to support the population without bringing the animals in conflict with humans .
We have IMO a duty to ensure that reintroductions are carefully considered with the quality of life for the animals at the top of the list .
Take deer there’s a lot of discussion about wolves as a means of reducing deer numbers here’s the issue yes wolves will eat deer they then breed increase in numbers eat more eventually the deer populations get hammered and or change behaviour move to other places .
Eventually the food for wolves is in shorter supply the wolves some change behaviour leading to conflict with humans some will starve in wild food supply controls predator numbers in a curve food species go up predator number go up then food species go down predator number follow food species go up again that’s pretty constant and balanced unless something upsets it .
Are people ready for starving wolf packs ? Or is really just better to control deer through shooting and eat them ourselves .

We don’t have much experience in this country of dangerous to humans wild life it’s an issue that needs to thought through.

 

[rabatsa]

Now if people talked about releasing snakes to help with rewilding would as many people be for it as they are for the "nicer" wild animals?

 

[cauda equina]

I don’t know anything about this but I would think cats would be much less danger to the public than pigs for example .
I think with reintroduction of any of these top predators the question has to be is there really enough food to support the population without bringing the animals in conflict with humans .
We have IMO a duty to ensure that reintroductions are carefully considered with the quality of life for the animals at the top of the list .
Take deer there’s a lot of discussion about wolves as a means of reducing deer numbers here’s the issue yes wolves will eat deer they then breed increase in numbers eat more eventually the deer populations get hammered and or change behaviour move to other places .
Eventually the food for wolves is in shorter supply the wolves some change behaviour leading to conflict with humans some will starve in wild food supply controls predator numbers in a curve food species go up predator number go up then food species go down predator number follow food species go up again that’s pretty constant and balanced unless something upsets it .
Are people ready for starving wolf packs ? Or is really just better to control deer through shooting and eat them ourselves .

We don’t have much experience in this country of dangerous to humans wild life it’s an issue that needs to thought through.

The worry was more to do with livestock, particularly lambs, rather than humans

About thistles - insects love thistle flowers, I try to catch thistles just before they seed then chop them up
My fields look very messy in places from a distance, but close up the messy bits are alive with insects
There is definitely a decision to be made - conventionally neat or good for wildlife?
The more people go for untidy but wildlife friendly land management the more normal it will become

eta And when people tell me 'You need to spray that' I just nod and smile

 

[Goldenstar]

The worry was more to do with livestock, particularly lambs, rather than humans

About thistles - insects love thistle flowers, I try to catch thistles just before they seed then chop them up
My fields look very messy in places from a distance, but close up the messy bits are alive with insects
There is definitely a decision to be made - conventionally neat or good for wildlife?
The more people go for untidy but wildlife friendly land management the more normal it will become

eta And when people tell me 'You need to spray that' I just nod and smile

Here’s the issue I can’t allow the field to be reduced to four acres of thistles it needs to work for a living as grazing I can’t allow it’s productivity to drop anymore than a little .

 

[cauda equina]

It doesn't have to be all or nothing though, I top some of my weeds and leave other bits

 

[Goldenstar]

On Wolves and larger cats eating farm animals is being in conflict with humans the animals don’t need to be eating the humans.

 

[cobgoblin]

Now if people talked about releasing snakes to help with rewilding would as many people be for it as they are for the "nicer" wild animals?

I'm not sure there's anything nice about wild boar and wolves.
The uk has been so lucky in its lack of predators for so long. All it takes is a bunch of fools and a few grants to try and ruin all that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

What about all the people running rewilding projects? Don't they know about it? One of the ones local to me is Wild East, where the founders (landowners and farmers naturally, but they have to lead the way) have projects on their own estates but also run a campaign that anyone can sign up to where you agree to devote 20% of whatever's available to you (windowbox upwards) to nature. It's raising awareness and joining people up. You can look on their map and see who's doing what. They have everything from individuals to farmers, local councils, rugby clubs, churches. https://www.wildeast.co.uk/we-pledge#MapOfDreams

I think you've misunderstood me, I am just making the point that it's not something known about or talked about between people I know/hang around with/friends, etc etc etc. It's really not on their agenda. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just 'is'.

 

[cobgoblin]

Dutch rewilding experiment sparks backlash as thousands of animals starve

A scheme to rewild marshland east of Amsterdam has been savaged by an official report and sparked public protest after deer, horses and cattle died over the winter

www.theguardian.com

 

[Burnttoast]

I think you've misunderstood me, I am just making the point that it's not something known about or talked about between people I know/hang around with/friends, etc etc etc. It's really not on their agenda. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just 'is'.

Oh, fair enough. I find the opposite here but different places, different faces, etc.

 

[Burnttoast]

That's interesting about Wild East but I wonder why they chose a lynx head as their logo
When the introduction of lynx to Thetford Forest was mooted some years ago it was hugely controversial and afaik has been abandoned - or is it still on someone's wishlist?

Well, it was certainly controversial among some influential pig producers, that's for sure, although it would have helped with the burgeoning small deer populations we have in EA. But it is off the table afaik atm although some people would clearly still like to see it. I remember the Express at the time characterising lynx, known by anyone who knows anything about them as extremely shy animals, as 'bloodthirsty', 'savage' and 'hungry beasts', which didn't sound at all biased (or totally moronic) to me.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Here’s the issue I can’t allow the field to be reduced to four acres of thistles it needs to work for a living as grazing I can’t allow it’s productivity to drop anymore than a little .

We have the same problem but on 14 acres. My sister had been controlling the thistles by spot spraying with Grazon 90 but they have got away from her in the last couple of years. Am waiting now on a local farmer to cut the worst patches.

 

[Burnttoast]

I am in year three of experimenting with changing the management of one of my paddocks to encourage more wild flowers .
it’s just under four acres and has not been in cultivation since before the war .it’s natural unimproved type grass .
The good is the that the range and amount of wild flowers has increased enormously this year is the third summer in the evening the field is full of moths which is something I don’t remember seeing to extent I do now and it really getting going the bad news is the issue with thistles it’s clear that without intervention it would end up as four acres of thistles .
This year I have topped the dense patches but I don’t think that going to be enough I might have to spray in places .I have never had to spray that field before as I was topping it more early in the season .
It’s hard to get used to the paddock looking untidy .

Which thistles are they? I've never sprayed my land and the majority of it is never topped either as I use it for standing hay. I have creeping thistles which move around a bit but don't seem to actually increase in numbers very much, and spear thistles, which pop up here and there, but never in large numbers, often just a single plant. I think they're stopped from spreading by birds eating the majority of the seed, but the birds have to expect they'll be there or they won't visit. The ponies also do eat the thistles over the winter, so they aren't a waste of space in that regard.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Which thistles are they? I've never sprayed my land and the majority of it is never topped either as I use it for standing hay. I have creeping thistles which move around a bit but don't seem to actually increase in numbers very much, and spear thistles, which pop up here and there, but never in large numbers, often just a single plant. I think they're stopped from spreading by birds eating the majority of the seed, but the birds have to expect they'll be there or they won't visit. The ponies also do eat the thistles over the winter, so they aren't a waste of space in that regard.

All I can say is that you are very lucky. We have creeping thistles which spread year on year. Also a lot of spear thistles which are biennial so we use a ragwort fork and dig them out religiously. Despite that they are still increasing in numbers. I have a lot to dig out but my fork has gone missing so have had to chop them instead which is hard work.

 

[palo1]

Here’s the issue I can’t allow the field to be reduced to four acres of thistles it needs to work for a living as grazing I can’t allow it’s productivity to drop anymore than a little .

Yes, and that is exactly the dilemma that every farmer faces too. I don't know a farmer that doesn't want to see improved biodiversity but also doesn't feel quite trapped in the need for productivity. Knepp like projects will only work as long as they are novel and are supported by grants. At what point though will the public; currently positive about rewilding generally, decide that they actually would prefer greater food security or other UK land 'productivity' outcomes. Ideally we would have a far greater proportion of organic and regenerative farming rather than the Monbiot-esque dream of a polarised rurality where land is either intensively farmed for food or totally rewilded to provide 'tourist' incomes. I really don't think that could work at all and I loathe the idea of intensivity in places; which farmers get that deal? How would local people feel about their area being designated as suitable for intensive agriculture for example? Blobs of intensively farmed land would simply not support biodiversity in those areas so it seems utterly counter-productive. Increasing regenerative and organically produced food feels more realistic to me but there are still difficult conversations to be had about food security, imported foods and the environmental cost of those etc.

 

[Burnttoast]

Yes, and that is exactly the dilemma that every farmer faces too. I don't know a farmer that doesn't want to see improved biodiversity but also doesn't feel quite trapped in the need for productivity. Knepp like projects will only work as long as they are novel and are supported by grants. At what point though will the public; currently positive about rewilding generally, decide that they actually would prefer greater food security or other UK land 'productivity' outcomes. Ideally we would have a far greater proportion of organic and regenerative farming rather than the Monbiot-esque dream of a polarised rurality where land is either intensively farmed for food or totally rewilded to provide 'tourist' incomes. I really don't think that could work at all and I loathe the idea of intensivity in places; which farmers get that deal? How would local people feel about their area being designated as suitable for intensive agriculture for example? Blobs of intensively farmed land would simply not support biodiversity in those areas so it seems utterly counter-productive. Increasing regenerative and organically produced food feels more realistic to me but there are still difficult conversations to be had about food security, imported foods and the environmental cost of those etc.

There is quite a bit of data to support land sparing but I agree it might not be very popular (although I say this as someone in rural Norfolk, where land sparing has effectively been going on for decades [ie we've got the bad end of the deal] and people who live here still go on about their beautiful landscape as though there's nothing amiss, so maybe they actually wouldn't care that much). But there are things like this going on https://fb.watch/lPyJZaOsyM/ so it's it's perfectly possible to run these things together and we ought to be encouraging these projects if it's what we want to see.

I don't see anything wrong with grants for rewilding or conservation more broadly. Far from it. Farming has survived on grants for ages and will continue to do so, so why not other land-based activities? If people want fruit, they are going to have to subsidise nature too.

ETA there are plenty of farmers who have no interest in biodiversity (they reflect the general population in that regard). It's a shame that they have control of large areas of land, but as they are constantly reminding us it's their personal mission to feed 8 billion people.

 

[Goldenstar]

Boar and wolves are beautiful clever animals .
Wild boar are extremely common in parts of Turkey and pretty easy to see out and about foraging in groups when you travel off the beaten track .
I have never seen a wild wolf I have seen a wild bear again in Turkey , bears that’s another wonderful animal best not mucked about with .
Theres space in Turkey vast areas not really suitable for agriculture that’s the difference .
We ave a duty not to reintroduce wild animals into unpleasant living conditions because of a current fad , it’s also Io concentrating effort at the wrong let’s start with improving things for invertebrates and insects that’s where a huge improvement and the benefits are enormous .

Yes, and that is exactly the dilemma that every farmer faces too. I don't know a farmer that doesn't want to see improved biodiversity but also doesn't feel quite trapped in the need for productivity. Knepp like projects will only work as long as they are novel and are supported by grants. At what point though will the public; currently positive about rewilding generally, decide that they actually would prefer greater food security or other UK land 'productivity' outcomes. Ideally we would have a far greater proportion of organic and regenerative farming rather than the Monbiot-esque dream of a polarised rurality where land is either intensively farmed for food or totally rewilded to provide 'tourist' incomes. I really don't think that could work at all and I loathe the idea of intensivity in places; which farmers get that deal? How would local people feel about their area being designated as suitable for intensive agriculture for example? Blobs of intensively farmed land would simply not support biodiversity in those areas so it seems utterly counter-productive. Increasing regenerative and organically produced food feels more realistic to me but there are still difficult conversations to be had about food security, imported foods and the environmental cost of those etc.

I too the find the intensive and wild model very distasteful, dystopian in fact .

 

[Burnttoast]

Boar and wolves are beautiful clever animals .
Wild boar are extremely common in parts of Turkey and pretty easy to see out and about foraging in groups when you travel off the beaten track .
I have never seen a wild wolf I have seen a wild bear again in Turkey , bears that’s another wonderful animal best not mucked about with .
Theres space in Turkey vast areas not really suitable for agriculture that’s the difference .
We ave a duty not to reintroduce wild animals into unpleasant living conditions because of a current fad , it’s also Io concentrating effort at the wrong let’s start with improving things for invertebrates and insects that’s where a huge improvement and the benefits are enormous .

Completely agree about the base of the food chain but there's not a lot of chance of that happening while climate change is ongoing and pesticides are still freely used. There has got to be some change/innovation in pest management and although new ways of doing things are being tried in some quarters it really needs to be the subject of much more research (government supported) and incentives to adopt new methods.

 

[maisie06]

Wild pig attacks dog causing serious injuries in Norfolk https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-66200666

Good grief. I'm wary enough of cows, but wild boar/domestic pig hybrids ! The dog was being walked on lead and in a public area as advised by the estate. The hybrid pigs are there as part of a rewilding project.

If it did that to my dog it would be sausages on a BBQ....seriously I think this rewilding thing is getting out of hand. The UK is too crowded for this to be safe, pigs can be tempramental at times let alone when crossed with wild boar who can have a vile disposition.

 

[Burnttoast]

If it did that to my dog it would be sausages on a BBQ....seriously I think this rewilding thing is getting out of hand. The UK is too crowded for this to be safe, pigs can be tempramental at times let alone when crossed with wild boar who can have a vile disposition.

One incident and rewilding (0.2% of the land area of England) is getting out of hand? Given how many walkers and their dogs are harmed by farmed livestock you could better argue on that basis that this farming thing has got well out of hand.

 

[cobgoblin]

If it did that to my dog it would be sausages on a BBQ....seriously I think this rewilding thing is getting out of hand. The UK is too crowded for this to be safe, pigs can be tempramental at times let alone when crossed with wild boar who can have a vile disposition.

They are very, very tasty.

 

[paddy555]

The worry was more to do with livestock, particularly lambs, rather than humans

About thistles - insects love thistle flowers, I try to catch thistles just before they seed then chop them up
My fields look very messy in places from a distance, but close up the messy bits are alive with insects
There is definitely a decision to be made - conventionally neat or good for wildlife?
The more people go for untidy but wildlife friendly land management the more normal it will become

eta And when people tell me 'You need to spray that' I just nod and smile

I've tried leaving ours but all I got were docks seeding everywhere and hemlock. The hemlock would take over and that most definitely gets sprayed. The fenced off areas the wildlife can have but the rest has gone back to neat.

I tried leaving the back garden and not mowing. That didn't work too well as I found a rat sitting on the back door step. That got mowed very quickly to reduce their cover.